Makita track versus Festool Track

[peter halle]

There are these things called patents out there.  They do expire.  When they do others jump into the pool.  During the time they are standing outside the pool Manufacturer dissect and design and plan.

Obviously being the first one in the pool has advantages but then later on...

Peter

 

[duburban]

They already have stolen a big chunk of Festool business for track saws and will steal even more in the future. Initially the price was on par with FT, but it keeps dropping, while FT is increasing, hence more incentive to go Makita.

The Makita was overpriced when it was introduced and the price came down to a more reasonable point to gain market share. Makita haven't upgraded the saw in 10 years and it shows, although having amortized their tooling costs I suppose they can afford to sell for less these days. Festool, on the other hand, revised their product, partly in response to the Mafell MT55cc and its' cut-down sibling the Bosch GKS55CE. The Makita isn't part of a system - yes there are rails (now in 3 lengths) and an adaptor for some routers, but that's about it. There is no real system. With the Festool there is, with parallel guides, Gecko clamps, a good selection of rail lengths, MFT table, saw module for the TS55 in the CMS. Oh, yes, and a real gripe from a professional standpoint - with the Makitas you really need to hunt around to get hold of different blades with consistent kerf widths. Maybe not much of an issue for you, but for me it is, as I currently run over a dozen different blades which all have the same 2.2mm kerf. And while we are on the subject of competitors I notice that you didn't mention the  deWalt saw(s) - a Makita-priced competitor.

TBH a lot of tradesmen here buying a plunge/rail saw for the first time tend to buy the Festool over the cheaper DW and Mak products. It might be snobbery, it might be reliability or spares availability, or it might just be that the Festool feels more comfortable to use, better in the hand. And if you use a tool 2-3-4 hours a day or more that intangible can make a lot of difference to how you view things.

Oh yes, and one really annoying point about the Makita 1400mm rail - it's just too short for crosscutting a 1220mm (4ft) sheet of plywood using a Makita plunge saw without running the base of the saw over the end of the rail (something which damages the base requiring early replacement). This is because the adjusters are set further out from the saw centre line on the Makitas, so they should have made the rail at least 100mm longer. I've ended up cutting a 3m rail into 1700mm and 1300mm to overcome what is, frankly, a design defect. A defect that you don't get with the Festool, Mafell or Bosch systems

The TS75 is tight on length on 1400 rail and 4' crosscut, from what i remember. Haven't used my 75 in a while.

 

[duburban]

I prefer using the Festool rails with my TS55.

I bought a long Makita track to save money, but ended up buying the Festool track as well. The  cams required adjustment to eliminate play every time I switched from one brand to the other.

I could be happy with one brand's track or the other, but not both (when paired with the same saw).

FWIW, I don't recall hearing about other people having this problem. I should check the difference with calipers. And I later bought the Makita saw to go with the track -- I prefer the Festool saw over the Makita, but would be ok with either (for my needs).

I have this problem. I have the long makita rail and it isn't worth the savings. Someone just posted on this and they put a strip of tape along the edge to make the saw fit better.

 

[duburban]

I'm surprised the new Bosch isn't getting a lot of attention here. Seems like a great package and I like the rail improvements. They have LR32 option as well as router attachments.

 

[Job and Knock]

The TS75 is tight on length on 1400 rail and 4' crosscut, from what i remember. Haven't used my 75 in a while.

In the UK (and elsewhere in the EU that I've worked) the vast majority of the trade guys I've worked with who had a Festool bought the TS55 because they were breaking down sheet materials (up to about 25mm thick). The TS75 isn't really a tool for that task (too large, too heavy) so I can't understand why anyone would want it for that purpose over a TS55. More power? You don't often need that for 25mm plywood. In any case neither Makita, nor DW, nor Mafell, nor Bosch, nor any of the cheap imitations make a saw with greater than 50mm depth of cut (the sole reason for having a TS75)

Edit: Scheppach do now have a larger 210mm saw available in Europe

What I'm struggling to understand is the race to the bottom in terms of price that some people think is going to deliver innovative, effective, reliable, maintainable tools. What it certainly doesn't do is deliver a tool with an appropriate level of customer service for a professional. Example: your Makita saw goes phut, so how long do you need to wait for spares or repairs (in the UK answers are 7 to 10 days and 14 plus days respectively). And Festool? Spares mainly next day, return to base repairs something like 48 to 72 hours. Or almost as good as Hilti. Been there on both of these. So why would any tradesman want to buy anything other than a Makita?

 

[Koamolly]

The TS75 is tight on length on 1400 rail and 4' crosscut, from what i remember. Haven't used my 75 in a while.

In the UK (and elsewhere in the EU that I've worked) the vast majority of the trade guys I've worked with who had a Festool bought the TS55 because they were breaking down sheet materials (up to about 25mm thick). The TS75 isn't really a tool for that task (too large, too heavy) so I can't understand why anyone would want it for that purpose over a TS55. More power? You don't often need that for 25mm plywood. In any case neither Makita, nor DW, nor Mafell, nor Bosch, nor any of the cheap imitations make a saw with greater than 50mm depth of cut (the sole reason for having a TS75)

Edit: Scheppach do now have a larger 210mm saw available in Europe

What I'm struggling to understand is the race to the bottom in terms of price that some people think is going to deliver innovative, effective, reliable, maintainable tools. What it certainly doesn't do is deliver a tool with an appropriate level of customer service for a professional. Example: your Makita saw goes phut, so how long do you need to wait for spares or repairs (in the UK answers are 7 to 10 days and 14 plus days respectively). And Festool? Spares mainly next day, return to base repairs something like 48 to 72 hours. Or almost as good as Hilti. Been there on both of these. So why would any tradesman want to buy anything other than a Makita?

If you wait for a deal on the Makita, you can basically buy two for the price of one Festool and not have to wait until the next day for parts or 48 to 72 hours for repairs.

 

[Jiggy Joiner]

As I posted in another thread, firstly I have been a long time Makita fan, and still am, and in more recent years I’ve become a Festool fan. My first plunge saw was a TS55 and although I was very pleased with it, I kept hearing how good the Mafell was. So I developed a serious itch for a Mafell, I finally succumbed and bought one.

Is it better than a TS55? In my opinion, yes it is but, not by the margin I was expecting. Very recently, I bought the Makita DSP601 (AWS Bluetooth) saw and Bluetooth extractor, it’s an awesome combo and has already become my go too plunge saw.
I really don’t know for sure if one of the three is better than the other two, they all have pros and cons. Also to be fair, the Festool and Mafell are corded, and the Makita cordless, so very convenient.

Knowing what I know now, and in fairness not having tried cordless versions of the Festool and Mafell, I would almost certainly opt for the cordless Makita. I have a lot of Makita batteries 35 + so that along with the freedom of cordless, makes it a good choice for me.
Obviously these are just my opinions, all of them are superb saws but, you do get a lot of bang for your buck with the Makita.
Now, if I were buying a multi tool, it would be a Fein, no question.

 

[RussellS]

What I'm struggling to understand is the race to the bottom in terms of price that some people think is going to deliver innovative, effective, reliable, maintainable tools. What it certainly doesn't do is deliver a tool with an appropriate level of customer service for a professional.

Where is this imagined, made up, make believe, fictitious race to the bottom you talk about?  I have a few Makita tools.  And I am pretty sure many, many professional carpenters, house builders, etc. use Makita tools to make a living.  And they use Milwaukee, Bosch, DeWalt, Porter Cable, Hitachi too.  Makita and the others are not cheap low quality tools.  They are good quality tools used by professionals to make a living every day.  I'd suggest you get out of your cave or castle, and go look at some actual real construction, carpentry places.  You will see lots of Makita tools being used.  And very, very few Festool or Mafell tools being used.  And please don't tell us these people would do the job twice as fast and twice as good if they used Festool or Mafell instead of Makita.  That is false.

 

[mrboult]

Seeing [member=69479]Jiggy Joiner[/member] 's post I realise this is not the thread I thought it was  [eek]  And I see we've been a bit off track , I think I thought this was the Saw thread. Anyway perhaps they can be merged. I'm carrying on   [member=13115]RussellS[/member] I read his post more as a comment that if you want a good tool you have to spend money and forcing manufacturers to hit low prices will could end up in reduced quality. I don't imagine anyone pretending to know anything about carpentry or construction can not recognise Makita's greatness.

Back on the wrong topic of this thread. . I think there are a couple of differences not considered as we debate this topic across the pond. And that is that here in Europe Festool sells at less of a premium when compared to US pricing, and Makita's don't go on sale for 40% off. As a generalisation at least.

Also I'm really thinking the comments on the TS55's power must be more of a 110v thing? I always pick my TS and the panther blade to rip hardwood. But I have the Makita too. . . whatever difference there is in my experience it simply can't account for the amount of comments I've read about the difference in power. . It must be a 110v issue I'm sure. . . although obviously I'm not sure just confused..

I'm glad to see so many positive things about the new Makita battery plunge saw. It's a good thing! I like my SP6000 - just never actually recommended one because of the awful rail slop adjusters (that loosen every day) they ALL seem to have

 

[Jiggy Joiner]

I know what you mean mrB there is another thread comparing the saws, and I noticed this thread has now veered into the same subject. This started out as guide rail comparison but, is now more about the saws themselves.

I would love to have cordless versions of the Festool, Mafell and Makita saws all set up and ready to test. I personally think there would still be pros and cons with all three.

 

[Mike Goetzke]

Mid 2018 I bought a Makita cordless track saw kit. Came with 55" track and four 5.0AHr batteries. I have many other Makita power tools so the batteries were valuable to me. I added an additional 55" & 118" track. (replaced my many EZ tools with this)

I've seen several people say the Makita tracks are not straight and mine seemed fine. My additiona 55" was slightly bowed in the vertical plane. This was easy to persuade to be flat.

Today I bring my track, saw, and new TSO GRS-16 PE with to the big box store to break down a 4x8 sheet of MDF to fit easier in my vehicle. I know the cross cut on panels is usually not to be trusted but I was off by almost 1/4"! Wasted some time trying to figure it out but it was about 15F out so I just used tick marks from the ends.

Get in the heated garage/shop and drew a nice square pencil line and found the same error. Slid the GRS to the other end of the rail - same thing. I tried my other two Makita rails and they were fine. I also tried a new 75" Festool rail and it was fine.

Laid the rails edge to edge and find my rail that came with the saw is indeed off by almost 1/4"! This one is going back to Makita. All the others are very straight.

(Ugg - other thing that bothered me was with the 55" track and GRS attached you really don't have sufficient space to start/end the cut across 48". I was going to sell a 75" Festool rail that I received with my TS75 since I thought it was an odd length but will probable keep it now.)

Mike

 

[mickmick]

I have owned the Makita SP6000 and rails. I didn't want to own the Festool TS55 if I could help it, simply based on price. However I succumbed and the TS55 rails are much smoother. They are also a bit thinner which sounds like a bad thing, but means they hug the boards that are being cut better.
The TS55 is a much much more accurate saw as well. The locking onto the rail jobby is much slicker, the depth gauge has notches, the dust collection is much better.
It is a pleasure to use the TS55 and rails. Makita was good and took a lot of knocks well, but was just a bit cruder.
The rails follow the quality/feel of the saws is you ask me. Pricewise as well 

 

[Job and Knock]

If you wait for a deal on the Makita, you can basically buy two for the price of one Festool and not have to wait until the next day for parts or 48 to 72 hours for repairs.

I'm trade. You probably aren't. I don't have the time to look for a deal when I've got problems - I need reliability, service and parts availability all the time. My Makita stuff is generally pretty reliable - their parts and service, however, leave a lot to be desired when you actually do need them. And I for one don't have extra space to cart around a second saw "on the off chance"

BTW the price differential here in the UK isn't and never has been 2:1 (and I live in neither a cave or a castle as someone else stated)

 

[ColossusX]

I use my cordless Makita and 2 55" tracks nearly every day in my remodeling business.  At this point I cant see a reason for me to get a Festool TS. I get the quality cuts I need with my Makita. It's perfect for the jobsite. 

 

[cs281]

Also the blue tape (non friction) on top of the rails is really hard and over time will wear groves into the saw base!! See this happen to both makita and festool saw used on the makita tracks.

This is an interesting point. I've got the HK55 and use the Makita rails instead of the FS rails and have noticed very shallow grooves appearing in the base of the saw. That said, the saw glides very smoothly.

What has been other people's experience?  Has anyone purchased the green Festool glide strips and replaced the blue Makita strips or is simply not worth the worry? 

 

[mrboult]

[member=71541]cs281[/member]  the bigger problem will be if the grooves created in your saw base aren’t equal, due to the way you apply pressure with your grip, then the saw will no longer cut at 90*. This will be more noticeable on deeper cuts.

I see no reason why you couldn’t swap the bike Makita glide strips from the green Festool ones and solve this issue, but do it sooner than later!

 

[Mike Goetzke]

[member=71541]cs281[/member]  the bigger problem will be if the grooves created in your saw base aren’t equal, due to the way you apply pressure with your grip, then the saw will no longer cut at 90*. This will be more noticeable on deeper cuts.

I see no reason why you couldn’t swap the bike Makita glide strips from the green Festool ones and solve this issue, but do it sooner than later!

All my Makita rails are relatively new. I'm thinking of replacing glide strips. It's $40 for 10m roll (Festool 491741 Glide Strip).

 

[cs281]

A point of consideration - we probably need to check the thickness of the Festool strips relative to the recess in the Makita track as the strips need to be just higher than the rest of the rail so it glides on the strip rather than the extrusion. I haven't got a pair of calipers to check unfortunately.

As a cheaper option, perhaps the Dewalt strips could be used, assuming its also PTFE / Teflon material without any ribs in it.

I'd be curious to see what short to medium term Makita users think of the track and the impact to the saw base - I haven't seen much varied feedback here on FOG.  I've probably cut only 10 lineal meters of particleboard before noticing this. It actually could be a non issue for people like me who don't use the saw every day, but then again, HK users may potentially find the problem exacerbated if they use the saw without any track like a normal circular saw.

For me, buying the Makita rails was mostly about value proposition. I bought the HK55 with bundled FSK420 rails (which I use more frequently)  and wasn't too keen to pay ~$480 AUD for 2 x 1400 FS rails vs. just under $200 AUD for both with a free carry bag thrown in.

 

[cs281]

[member=71541]cs281[/member]
I see no reason why you couldn’t swap the bike Makita glide strips from the green Festool ones and solve this issue, but do it sooner than later!

After spending hours cleaning off the adhesive from the Makita rails and installing the festool strips, I noticed a slight crowning of the rail meaning my HK55 would slide across the aluminium in the centre of the track, rendering it useless. I imagine this is because the festool guide strips may be 0.5mm thinner and also the double sided tape isn't as thick.

Rather than waste more time, I ended up buying 2 of the Festool rails to replace the Makita ones. They work perfectly. Lesson learned here is my time is worth more than the purported cost savings!

 

[Gregor]

Rather than waste more time, I ended up buying 2 of the Festool rails to replace the Makita ones. They work perfectly. Lesson learned here is my time is worth more than the purported cost savings!

In case you want to connect them I suggest you go for the Makita or TSO connectors, these are better than the Festools ones.