Man Wins Big Money in Tablesaw Lawsuit

Flesh detecting technology just REDUCES injuries, but not completely eliminating them.  Table saw runs at 3600 RPM, contractor saw runs at 10000+ RPM
SawStop claims that brakes will run in 5 milliseconds.  Make calculation 3600/1000*5=18 full revolutions. Universal saw blade has 40 teeth 40*18=720 sharp teeth bites at full speed (or 2000 painful bites with contractor saw). That more than sufficient to cut your fingers or severely damage your arm or chest. It will never happens if you are carefully working with saw. But there always be "talented explorers" who will recklessly use  their tool, or will try to challenge law system.
Another aspect is cost. That was not $1000+ saw, it was $199 off shelf saw. 
Just my two cents.
VictorL
 
Victor,

I think your calculation is a little out.

3600 RPM = 60 revs per second, therefore 60/1000*5 = .3 revs in the time it takes the saw to stop. That's about 13 teeth on a 40-tooth blade. Bad, but unless you stick your hand in really fast, probably only a nick.

Richard.
 
RichardLeon said:
I think your calculation is a little out.

3600 RPM = 60 revs per second, therefore 60/1000*5 = .3 revs in the time it takes the saw to stop. That's about 13 teeth on a 40-tooth blade.

Agreed!

In addition, the blade is retracted below the surface of the table, and away from the user's hand.

Forrest

 
Victor,

Accidents happen.  I cut off the end of my finger using a drill.  And it was the hand holding the handle and trigger! 

I also do not agree with the verdict.  But wait, maybe I should have sued Bosch?

Peter
 
Peter Halle said:
I cut off the end of my finger using a drill.  And it was the hand holding the handle and trigger! 

This we have to hear!!

This is an eye opening calculation RichardLeon.  Reminds me of high school physics when we figured out that 60mph = 88 feet per second.  Puts that stopping distance in perspective (e.g. over a football field in 4 seconds).

Anyway, figuring in human reaction time*, 100ms, you're looking at TWENTY times longer than the SawStop reputedly fires.  60/1000*100 (ms) = 6 revs
That's 6 full revolutions.. typically 240 cutting teeth engaged... If you're moving your hand slowly, yep you got a bad cut.  If you're pushing forward forcefully and with some speed... bye bye fleshy parts.

* Taken from The Journal of Neuroscience:  " because of the low peripheral and spinal conduction velocities, pain-related information from the hand arrives at the human brain not earlier than 100 ms after stimulus application"

Cited source: http://www.jneurosci.org/cgi/content/full/26/42/10879

 
RichardLeon said:
... and yes, the payoff is a lot, (not so much after you consider $400,000 in medical bills) but the point of his case is that it may force manufacturers to adopt the technology which is surely a good thing.

Sad but true..  Normal injury litigation is normally/often as follows:  3-4x medical bills allocated as follows:
1/3 to the lawyer(s),
1/4 - 1/3 to cover actual bills
remainder to plaintiff.

So he probably walked away with a few less digits on his person, and about $600k 'free and clear' (and tax free).  Both for being a dummo.
 
You have to read the article referred to above to realize what a complete fool this guy was. He has a degree in computer science but apparently zero common sense.

"he was trying to make a rip cut on a 2'-long, 2-1/2"-wide by 3/4"-thick piece of oak flooring, according to court records. He was attempting to cut the board ?freehand? without the rip fence..."

"He had cut only a small portion of the workpiece when it got stuck at the blade. Osorio immediately experienced chattering and felt vibration in the workpiece. He stopped cutting and cleaned the tabletop. He then attempted to make the same cut again but the chattering continued, and he decided to push the board harder. His left hand then slipped into the spinning saw blade..."

"The saw blade height above the tabletop was set to approximately 3" ? at or near the maximum elevation, and the guarding system was not installed on the saw during the operation...

 
I too just read that article and I'm blown away.  What idiot puts the blade up 3" to cut 3/4" matieral!?  THAT'S INSANE!
Beyond the cutting-your-hand-up issue, that's nearly guaranteed kickback.  I was shocked that this case was from 2005.  Four years and it somehow crawled its way through the system.  A rational person would think an appeal would guarantee overturning...  But the system is far from rational.

Here's where they immediately should have tossed the case:
"He was attempting to cut the board ?freehand? without the rip fence, according to the documents. Osorio intended to make a cut in a straight line all the way through the board. "
Later:
" "Yes, I took that piece off, because we didn?t use that piece only, I only use it when I have to make a straight cut.?"
Errm... umm... so you know that a rip fence is used for a straight cut... and you intended to make a straight cut... but didn't use the fence.  [blink]
 
You forgot to point out that he tried the cut, it didn't work, so he "pushed harder."

The mind boggles.
 
My point was that there is no 100% safe systems. You can hurt yourself with ANY device or object. Pencil, pebble, chewing gum, even with glass of water.  I hurt myself few times with power and hand tools.  Every time it was only my fault. Each accident teaches me.  I accidentally touched still spinning saw blade, and it was just ONE tooth impact, but damage to my finger was moderate. Imagine if saw was still on? The funniest thing this saw was .... Ryobi.
I don't agree with verdict. Manufacturer cannot be responsible for injuries unless tool was malfunctioning, or it was not up to current safety requirements on date of original sale.  Just wondering, if somebody struck tree on Ford'55 without ABS brakes, stability control system, seat belts and 8 airbags who will be responsible for injuries? 
Regards,
VictorL
 
I couldn't resist chiming in again.

Most of us remember outrageous jury verdicts because they make the news are are fun to argue about, but few people follow the story to see what the person really gets.  The reality is that unreasonably large jury verdicts usually get reduced by judges, or or on appeal.  For example, most people remember the $2.7 million that the jury awarded to the McDonald's "coffee in the lap" lady.  Most people don;t know that the judge reduced that to $640,000.  Even then, McDonald's appealed and the case settled for some undisclosed amount below that before the appeal was decided.

The Ryobi award does seem outrageous, but I feel bad for the guy.  He was obviously just an untrained grunt who was told to rip 1/2" off of some hardwood flooring with a $150 portable table saw that was sitting on the floor, had the guard removed, and had the blade at it's maximum height.  Unfortunately, because he gets worker's comp benefits, he can't sue his employer, who is really at fault.  The only way for him to get more was to sue Ryobi.

I think the real question is whether any manufacturer should be allowed to sell a $150 table saw to someone who doesn't know how to use it.  I think people fear large machines with big sharp blades and big solid blade guards.  They scream "WATCH OUT, WE'RE SERIOUS AND DANGEROUS! WE CAN KILL YOU."  What does a $150 table saw scream?  "BUY ME - DON'T BE AFRAID.  I'M CUTE, CHEAP, AND SPECIALLY MADE FOR HOMEOWNERS WHO HAVE NEVER USED A TABLE SAW BEFORE AND PROBABLY WON'T EVER READ THE INSTRUCTIONS."

I am a capitalist, but do believe that we need to stop making it so easy (and appealing) for untrained amateurs to buy machinery that has razor sharp rotating  blades.
 
Just my opinion.

Steve
 
Because of the way the sawstop saw retracts the blade below the table as the brake fires, you would have contact with fewer teeth than the calculations would indicate as the teeth are falling away from your finger as the brake is being applied.

I watched one of the hotdog demos at a Woodcraft store and the store owner was pushing the plywood the hot dog was resting on at a normal feed rate.  When contact with the hotdog was made, there was one hell of a loud bang, but the hotdog was saved.  In fact, even looking very, very closely, I could barely see where the blade touched it. 

Its damned impressive, enough so that I bought one a few months later.  But, and this is a big one, you can still get hurt, so its no excuse to start getting careless or stupid.  Even though its expensive (I've got about $3K in the contractor saw after getting all the accessories I wanted - mobile base, cast iron wings, 36" t-glide fence, digital fence readout, incra miter gauge, dust port panel) its a very good quality saw, and so much cheaper than a trip to the ER.

Fred
 
No doubt this is very good technology. I've tried to show that even with this technology injuries are possible. In normal operation you won't get hurt, but  with reckless operation damage will be significant.  Let me show how.  Raise saw blade 3", remove saw blade guard turn on the saw, then hit spinning blade with palm, then count remaining fingers after 5 ms. I'm not trying assault anybody, just trying review situation. It is not possible with normal operation, but in theory this situation is dangerous.

Another aspect is how this saw will work with fresh treated lumber. It is wet, and should appear as flesh for saw.  ???

I don' t care how much person gets on hands 2/3 or 1/3. The problem with lawsuits is that who pays the bill.  12-15 years ago one smart lawyer found that after small car accident there is possibility of "invisible" injuries, that required heavy treatment and rehab.  Lawyers promised high reward for "pain and suffering" after minor car accidents. Immediately after that NYC was flooded with so called "No fault medical centers".  People complained about pain, medical centers treated their "injuries" lawyers sued insurance companies for big rewards. It was multi billion industry.  Car insurance premium rocketed very high in the NYC.  People from poor neighborhoods rented vans, put 10 people into vans, then setup "car accidents" without  any van damage, then got $10K+ per person for "pain and suffering", not including cost of 3-6 months of medical treatment. Who paid for this? We did.
High medical cost? Malpractice cases.  How many unnecessary procedures patients get in hospital only to protect doctor's license from malpractice lawsuit. Who pays for that? Doctor, hospital, insurance company? They just signing the check, but we are paying the bill.  One law firm advertising "We won $300 million dollars in rewards for our clients from malpractice  lawsuits". I read this statement like this: "Our lawyers earned $100 million dollars for themselves. Each American, including infants, paid for that $1, and you too."  
If court will reward cases like that, we'll get just more cases like that.  There should be free choice to buy saw with blade brakes, or without brakes.  

This topic is too sad...
VictorL  
 
Saying "personal responsibility" is the key here sounds nice, but who paid for this guy's ER visit, his multiple surgeries, his continued disability, his continued physical therapy, etc?  Look in the mirror.  We all pay for this guy through increased insurance premiums, taxes, health care costs, and so forth.

Who does not pay?  The saw companies. 

The people getting the last laugh here are the companies who refuse to license the sawstop safety technology.  These companies are free-riding off the public.

If anyone has a better idea for how to get the companies to pay for the injuries their saws cause, as opposed to spreading costs across all of us, let's hear it.  Of course the guy who sued is responsible for what appears to be utterly stupid behavior, but I think it is great that he won nonetheless.  Not because he deserves to win, but because his win might force Delta, Powermatic, Ryobi, etc. to make their equipment safer.  The companies probably have yearly "amputation funds" designed to pay people who get hurt---drain those funds of money and you will see safer saws.  The only claim against the safety mechanisms beyond the moral hazard argument (safe saws encourage reckless behavior) is that the cost will be really high.  Seems hard to imagine although I do not know any details.  Once sawstop brakes are manufactured in the thousands, costs will plummet.

 
mike1967 said:
If anyone has a better idea for how to get the companies to pay for the injuries their saws cause,

I think that's the point - the saws don't cause any injuries (unless they're faulty) it's people like this idiot who don't use them correctly that is the problem. And that isn't the fault of the manufacturer.
 
Most of us remember outrageous jury verdicts because they make the news are are fun to argue about, but few people follow the story to see what the person really gets.  The reality is that unreasonably large jury verdicts usually get reduced by judges, or or on appeal.  For example, most people remember the $2.7 million that the jury awarded to the McDonald's "coffee in the lap" lady.  Most people don;t know that the judge reduced that to $640,000.  Even then, McDonald's appealed and the case settled for some undisclosed amount below that before the appeal was decided.

Steve I was unaware that they settled for an undisclosed amount, thank you for that tid-bit of information.

I think that's the point - the saws don't cause any injuries (unless they're faulty) it's people like this idiot who don't use them correctly that is the problem. And that isn't the fault of the manufacturer.

Exactly, next thing you know we will have to pay for saw licenses to own them!

My own stupidity has caused alot of injuries, I hit some rebar drilling and sprained my finger because my old hilti drill did not have active torque control like the new ones.  Did I sue Hilti?  NO!  I was drilling an improperly supported piece of metal and stuck a bit in my thigh......did I sue Hilti for that?  NO!  I was ripping up boards with a prybar in an awkward position and pinched my finger and lost the nail, this reduced its use for a week and lost revenue due to me lowered productivity did I sue the prybar maker for not putting padding on the handles?

Gimme a break guys.
 
jonny round boy said:
mike1967 said:
If anyone has a better idea for how to get the companies to pay for the injuries their saws cause,

I think that's the point - the saws don't cause any injuries (unless they're faulty) it's people like this idiot who don't use them correctly that is the problem. And that isn't the fault of the manufacturer.

Agreed.  This argument could be given for any inanimate object that can cause injury.

I just watched Pan's Labryinth the other night and the villain just about kills a guy with a wine bottle.  Should vintners be liable for someone using their bottle incorrectly and causing injury?  Same goes for beer bottles.  There's an untapped (pun!) market of personal injury lawsuits (imagine a bar fight making Budweiser bankrupt in lawsuits).

I broke a window and cut myself... is that the window manufacturer's fault?  Baseball bats aren't for pummeling people, but they've been used for decades to cause grevious injury and even death to others.  Louisville slugger is to blame??  Knives and razors for suicide-- are those makers at fault because their product is dangerous and someone used it to slice themselves up?  Construction workers fall on exposed rebar... is that the rebar makers fault??  People fall down the stairs all the time.  Is that the fault of builders, even if they put a handrail there and the person wasn't using it!?  How do you sue gravity, the real culprit behind falling?!?  By gosh, gravity should be paying for all those hip replacements!

I just saw a show about a guy who cliff-jumped 60 feet and a jet of water went up his backside, shredding his innards and he passed out from internal bleeding and died from drowning (true story apparently).  Should his family sue the swimsuit maker for not including a "plug"??

Where is there a line to be drawn between a physical item that *can* cause injury, and the responsibility of the person using it to make sure they don't hurt themselves.  It is probably obvious where I fall on the location of this line... 

I work in IT.  My fingers are my paycheck (ergo, I spend 80% of my time typing).  Therefore I am VERY careful and try to be smart around cutting tools. 
If one is in construction, or a surgeon, or any job where your hands are your livelihood, one should be careful with them!  If you aren't, it's not the tools fault.  Perhaps it's a hidden blessing for this guy to get into a different profession where rampant stupidity doesn't cost him body parts.

Regarding another post, I totally agree that there is a huge cultural difference here in the US (I can't speak for Canada or elsewhere) that screams "You're a homeowner, you can do it!" and people buy all sorts of things they shouldn't and have no idea how to use.  A power tool license / training course would go a LONG way towards heading off future injuries.  Take the class, you get a card authorizing you to buy things that can chop you up, and hopefully the fool factor is gone.  Don't take the class (or don't pass!!)... hire a professional or don't pretend to be a professional.

 
Regarding another post, I totally agree that there is a huge cultural difference here in the US (I can't speak for Canada or elsewhere) that screams "You're a homeowner, you can do it!" and people buy all sorts of things they shouldn't and have no idea how to use.  A power tool license / training course would go a LONG way towards heading off future injuries.  Take the class, you get a card authorizing you to buy things that can chop you up, and hopefully the fool factor is gone.  Don't take the class (or don't pass!!)... hire a professional or don't pretend to be a professional.

We have enough of this already!  Why must everything need to be licensed, if its licensed it means another nominal fee I need to pay and time I have to take out of my work day to do.  Where do we draw the line here? 
 
VictorL said:
One law firm advertising "We won $300 million dollars in rewards for our clients from malpractice  lawsuits". I read this statement like this: "Our lawyers earned $100 million dollars for themselves. Each American, including infants, paid for that $1, and you too."  

Before I start, let me say that I an attorney, but only do trust and estate work - no personal injury.  I will admit, however, that lawyers are an easy target and certainly part of the problem, but it's not just driven by the lawyers.

It's driven primarily by greed.  Some people will always look for an opportunity to convert an injury into money.  On the other hand, virtually all of us have suffered a non-catastrophic injury at some point that was caused by someone else.  I am certain that very few of us have ever sued because of it.

The other important factor is that the personal injury system supports alot of people (including professional woodworkers) - not just lawyers and doctors.  I am not trying to defend the system, just pointing out the reality.  The list of other jobs that depend on this industry is astounding.  Paralegals, Secretaries, chiropractors, physical therapists,  nurses, X-Ray, MRI, & CAT Scan technicians, insurance underwriters, investigators, claims adjusters, expert witnesses, sales people, and the administrative staff that supports all of that.  In turn, each one of those jobs creates more demand for office and medical equipment and supplies.

And, of course, keeping all those people employed increases the demand for professional woodworkers. ; )

Steve
 
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