Maple Finish Schedule Assistance Needed

[Rufnek100]

I recently purchased the Charles Neil Pre-Color Conditioner product and am currently experimenting on some maple samples for an upcoming project. I have thus far tried combinations of 1 and 2 coats of the conditioner and initially started with a Behlen Solar Lux NGR dye. Unfortunately, I do not own any spray equipment so the wiping method of the Behlen NGR dye did not end well (as the instructions said it wouldn’t, but I guess I had to try anyway). I backed up and am now trying General Finishes water based dye. This approach has produced a much more satisfying result and I’m getting my colors dialed in.

However, now that I have the dye down I am thinking of applying an (again, General Finishes) oil based pigmented wiping stain on top of the dye to accentuate the grain and add some depth to the finish. The question I have is regarding a seal coat between the dye and oil based wiping stain – do I need this step to lock down the dye? With the Pre-Color conditioner already in place, I am concerned another seal coat will render the wiping stain ineffective.

My proposed finish schedule is as follows:

1. 2 coats CN Pre-Color Conditioner wipe applied as per instructions
2. 2 coats wipe applied General Finishes water based dye stain
3. 1 coat wipe applied ½ lb. cut Sealcoat (product as manufactured cut 50% with denatured alcohol)
4. 1 coat wipe applied General Finishes oil base wood stain
5. 3-5 coats wipe applied General Finishes Satin Arm-R-Seal oil & urethane topcoat

Can anyone tell me if I’m on the right track? Thanks!

 

[tjbnwi]

Try a sample board. You may not need the a blocking coat depending on chemical interaction.

Tom

 

[Rufnek100]

Thanks Tom - I had actually gotten as far as step 2 (on the 2nd overall try) on my sample boards and got stymied out of fear of having to start my samples over for a 3rd attempt. I suppose that's what samples are for but I only get the chance to work on my projects in the evening and I didnt want to get put back another two days.

I'm going to move ahead on my samples without the shellac at this point - shortly after posting I posed the same question to Charles Neil himself via email and he was kind enough to reply. He also advised me to forego the seal coat and went on to explain that in addition to lessening the effectiveness of the pigmented stain the shellac would most likely dissolve and pull up the blotch control along with the dye, turning it into a mess similar to my first attempt with the NGR alcohol-based dye (his directions recommend spraying).

 

[jacko9]

I just finished a desk using the General Finishes Water Based Stains to match two different sections then let that dry for 24 hours and finished the color with the Java Gel Stain.  I let the Gel Stain dry for 5 days (I had other projects) then coated it all with General Finishes Arm-R-Seal Semi Gloss varnish which was wiped on with Scotts paper rags 4 copays with 24 hours in between each coat.

Jack

 

[tiralie]

The question I have is regarding a seal coat between the dye and oil based wiping stain – do I need this step to lock down the dye? With the Pre-Color conditioner already in place, I am concerned another seal coat will render the wiping stain ineffective.

General water based dye stain (retail) contain 5% polyurethane which actually prevents all of the stain to absorb into the wood and some of it sit on top of the maple vs absorb like a tradition dye would do. This is why it looks better than other dyes in hard to dye wood like maple. This small amount of polyurethane also some what seals the dye but not completely. You can "lift" the dye if you wipe too vigorously with alcohol and this creates patches. Be careful when you apply the oil based stain.

My proposed finish schedule is as follows:

1. 2 coats CN Pre-Color Conditioner wipe applied as per instructions
2. 2 coats wipe applied General Finishes water based dye stain
3. 1 coat wipe applied ½ lb. cut Sealcoat (product as manufactured cut 50% with denatured alcohol)
4. 1 coat wipe applied General Finishes oil base wood stain
5. 3-5 coats wipe applied General Finishes Satin Arm-R-Seal oil & urethane topcoat

Can anyone tell me if I’m on the right track? Thanks!

Should be fine.
I would try to get the first two coats of dye down to one by mixing a color that was closer to what you want.  The more you wipe that dye, the more you move it around and remove some of the color and it starts to look patchy.
With this schedule you probably didn't need the preconditioned. With General water based stains, the best preconditioned is distilled water.
Tim
Tim

 

[Rufnek100]

Thanks for the insight - I'm still working through sample boards and will try some with distilled water for conditioner. My first sample with no conditioner and the NGR dye was an ugly blotched disaster, so I started doing a lot of research and ended up with the CN product. I have a ton of offcuts laying around from other project and now I know what I'm going to do with them!

As a hobbyist with no deadlines I have plenty of time to get it where I want it and thus far am enjoying the learning process. This is my first foray into the world of dyes and I have to say the instant, drastic color change on light color woods like maple is pretty cool.

 

[mouppe]

Speaking for myself, maple is a nightmare to finish. I usually avoid using it but if I do, then I'll finish it with oil, shellac or wax or a combination of them.

I'll really don't like using gel stains as I cannot get consistent results across the board. Dyes are much more straightforward for me. I put a dye straight on raw wood, then a wash coat of shellac, followed by oil, poly or whatever topcoat I want. With a closed-pore wood like maple, you should be able to get the colour you are looking for from just the dye rather than having to use a gel stain too. It make take a couple of applications.