MAY 2008: MFK 700 Modular Router

[mhch]

The 2 cents from a non-participating foreign member ..

It would also be sad if the same winner wins ever and ever and ever ....
That sounds a bit greedy to me, sorry to say.

There is a wide population of forum members, pros,  working hobbyists,
retired hobbyists, etc .. The rules (and the jury) should make sure they all
have equal chances to win, and avoid the same winner to win too often

 

[Matthew Schenker]

The 2 cents from a non-participating foreign member ..

It would also be sad if the same winner wins ever and ever and ever ....
That sounds a bit greedy to me, sorry to say.

There is a wide population of forum members, pros,  working hobbyists,
retired hobbyists, etc .. The rules (and the jury) should make sure they all
have equal chances to win, and avoid the same winner to win too often

The judges have been discussing a possible limit on the number of times someone can win in a given period.  Like everything else, it needs balance.  There must be opportunities to keep winning, but not so much that one person wins all the time.

Keep in mind that the theme of the contest will change each month.  For example, this first month it was general "projects."  In future months, it might be "small-scale projects" or "jig and invention" or "tool review" or something entirely different.  It's unlikely that one person would keep winning in all of these categories.

Matthew

 

[Forrest Anderson]

The 2 cents from a non-participating foreign member ..

It would also be sad if the same winner wins ever and ever and ever ....
That sounds a bit greedy to me, sorry to say.

There is a wide population of forum members, pros,  working hobbyists, retired hobbyists, etc .. The rules (and the jury) should make sure they all have equal chances to win, and avoid the same winner to win too often

And another non-participating foreign member agrees!

I think that a working pro with a fully-equipped workshop, and whose time and materials are paid for by a customer, has an unfair advantage over hobbyists who have to squeeze in projects at weekends, who have to work out of the spare bedroom, and who may not be able to afford high-quality and expensive materials.

I'm not sure how to make the playing field more level, but perhaps two separate categories - pro and amateur - might be a possible solution.

I am not suggesting that we change the rules for the May competition, but I think that we should re-appraise things before the beginning of June.

Forrest

 

[Michael Kellough]

Because it would be sad if a previous winner could not compete for a Kapex if that is ever the prize.

To elaborate to Eili's question,

How about publishing a schedule of which tools will be the prizes for upcoming months.

If a guy puts a supreme effort into winning one month and wins an ES 125 and can't take time out to make similar effort when the prize is a Kapex (if ever) he would be very disappointed.

 

[Per Swenson]

And another non-participating foreign member agrees!

I think that a working pro with a fully-equipped workshop, and whose time and materials are paid for by a customer, has an unfair advantage over hobbyists who have to squeeze in projects at weekends, who have to work out of the spare bedroom, and who may not be able to afford high-quality and expensive materials.

Forrest

  Thank you Forrest,

Damn straight we do and on top of that, generally my customers buy my tools.

Just one more little Pet Peeve. I build these bars with 75% festool.

Do you think it would be fair if I entered one now?

I thought not.

Per

 

[sw1211]

[

Do you think it would be fair if I entered one now?

I thought not.

Per
[/quote]

Fair?  It's within the rules, go for it.  Plus I'm planning on building a bar in our house, much smaller than the ones I've seen from you and could use some more insights into your methods.  ;D  If I can get mine to turn out half as nice as the ones you build, I'll be satisfied.

 

[tvgordon]

How about a compromise?

It seems we are split between those who want a drawing and those who want more member projects.  So, what if we have a drawing each month from those who posted qualifying projects?  By qualifying, I mean those projects that would be considered now (photos, how Festools were used, etc - whatever standards the judges are using now).

That way we would have more projects posted and avoid the whole pro vs. amateur fairness debates.  And by having a drawing each month, we would avoid carrying over the non-winning projects month after month.

What do you guys think?  Of course it's ultimately up to Matthew. 

Oh, and Per, go for it!  The contest is for all members and I know I would like to see more of your work.

Tom.

 

[Per Swenson]

Tom,

Thanks man,

Unfortunately what we are doing to eat right now ain't nothin to write home to Mom FOG about.

Per

 

[Dan Lyke]

Just to toss a whole 'nother squid into the bucket: I just got my Talmeters, and I nominate Scott W. for a prize of some sort!

 

[danrush]

Per,

I know you meant no offense, but what you all are doing now is probably closer to what I've been doing for 20+ years.  It ain't glamorous, but it's always been steady, and the bankers and credit guys leave me alone.!!!

Best, Dan

P.S.  I do dig your "show-off work" 

 

[Bill Wyko]

I have an idea. On one month you could let the members from other countries do the voting. This way they can at least have an important part in this if they can't win prizes. Just a thought.

 

[Warrior]

I think that there is nothing wrong with a little competition. It drives the good to become better and the weak to become strong. If we have to do a drawing I say let there be a drawing for a mid priced tool like a sander and a contest for a higher priced tool. But I would opt for that only because there are so many here that feel that the contest is skewed towards the pros.
I may hurt some feelings here but why does anyone who knows that they do not have what it takes to win a contest feel entitled to be eligle for a prize?

The 2 cents from a non-participating foreign member ..

It would also be sad if the same winner wins ever and ever and ever ....
That sounds a bit greedy to me, sorry to say.

There is a wide population of forum members, pros,  working hobbyists, retired hobbyists, etc .. The rules (and the jury) should make sure they all have equal chances to win, and avoid the same winner to win too often

And another non-participating foreign member agrees!

I think that a working pro with a fully-equipped workshop, and whose time and materials are paid for by a customer, has an unfair advantage over hobbyists who have to squeeze in projects at weekends, who have to work out of the spare bedroom, and who may not be able to afford high-quality and expensive materials.

I'm not sure how to make the playing field more level, but perhaps two separate categories - pro and amateur - might be a possible solution.

I am not suggesting that we change the rules for the May competition, but I think that we should re-appraise things before the beginning of June.

Forrest

Maybe we should have many categories.

Pros

Pros with only a shed for a shop

Amateurs with a full shop

Amatuers with the spare bedroom shop.

And another thing, I hardly have the fully equipt shop and my shop is 19' by 19'. And if you can afford to be buying festool you certainly can afford to buy some nice wood.

If everyone has an equal chance to win than that is no competition at all. If you dont want the same winner again maybe the winner has to be a judge the next month. There is way too much talent here on the fog to have the same winner over and over.   Unless most of the talent doesnt post there work that particular month. I feel that I may have lucked out this month since I did not have to compete against the likes of Per and Bob, Mirko, Jerry, Nickao, Monte just to name a few. I could list at least 20 more that I know of that have the talent and probably more talent than I.

Even if the same winner won over and over wouldnt that inspire others to try and knock that one off the mountain? Was the competition no fun when Michael Jordan took the Bulls to so many titles? I didnt hear anyone saying well this is just so unfair " my kid plays basketball and he should get a ring too."

Rant Over.

Eiji

 

[mhch]

I may hurt some feelings here but why does anyone who knows that they do not have what it takes to win a contest feel entitled to be eligle for a prize?

You may have been hurt by my posts, I'm sorry for that.
It's very clear you worked extremely hard at the project you described as well as at the posting.
No doubt in my mind.

That said, I will speak for myself and leave it to Forrest do his own:
I don't feel entitled to be eligible, by the published rules & because I'm too much of a newbie at woodworking.

 

[Forrest Anderson]

I may hurt some feelings here but why does anyone who knows that they do not have what it takes to win a contest feel entitled to be eligle for a prize?

Are you suggesting that those who advocate a random drawing "do not have what it takes to win a contest"? That's quite a controversial suggestion!

Remember that since I am in the UK, I am ineligible to win a prize, either from a competition or random drawing. Because of that, I would like to think that I am reasonably unbiased in the way things are run, since I have no vested interest. 

And another thing, I hardly have the fully equipt shop and my shop is 19' by 19'. And if you can afford to be buying festool you certainly can afford to buy some nice wood.

And no doubt they can also afford to drive a nice car, live in an expensive house, eat at the best restaurants, go on long holidays abroad, buy the best designer clothes?  They buy Festool, so of course they can!

Nah, I don't think so.

If everyone has an equal chance to win than that is no competition at all...

Was the competition no fun when Michael Jordan took the Bulls to so many titles? I didnt hear anyone saying well this is just so unfair " my kid plays basketball and he should get a ring too."

Thank you for introducing the subject of sport! It is indeed a good example to use. Most sports have different levels or leagues, so that players can compete with others who have similar experience, age, or ability.  A flyweight boxer wouldn't have much chance against a heavyweight boxer, would he? The heavyweight might enjoy the competition, but the flyweight probably wouldn't, and it would be patently obvious to the crowd that the match was unfair.

The Wikipedia entry for sporting divisions has this to say (the bold emphasis is mine):

--------------------
A division in sports consists of a group of teams which compete against one another for a divisional title.
It is often part of a league system, which is a set of divisions, in which teams can move between differently ranked divisions. Divisions are then organised in such a way that teams or players in any given division are comparably adept at their chosen sport, so that matches are more even, and therefore more exciting.
--------------------

Hopefully you will now see why I am suggesting that having different categories for the FOG competition might be a good idea?

Forrest

 

[tvgordon]

Hey Eiji,  you hurt my feelings.  Nah, just kidding.    I certainly don't think my entry should win over one that is better.

I think Forrest said it best.  It's not that you don't deserve to win, it's that some feel that having you (and other pros) having their materials (and tools) paid for by the customers gives you guys an advantage over many in the group.  That's why I said maybe have a drawing from those who post projects and others have wanted to have different categories for entries.

Would you have been able (or choose) to build your project (or Per his bar, for example) if you had to pay for it yourself?

I see your point that the best should win and I hope you can see my side as well.

Tom.

 

[Matthew Schenker]

Good Afternoon,
I've written about this before, but just to make sure...
The plan is to have rotating contest subjects.  The first month, it is member projects.  Next month, perhaps it will be best jig, or best tool review, or something else.  That should give more people opportunities to win, based on what they do well.  Also, even if we come back to member projects, all projects are eligible to win at all times (except those that already won) so people will have another shot.

Some may think professionals have automatic advantages, but we've all seen projects by hobbyists that certainly rival professionals.

One thing I'm very certain about: there won't be random drawings.  That runs counter to the whole idea of the contest, which is to push us all to do more creative work with our Festool tools.

Matthew

 

[Frank Pellow]

...
One thing I'm very certain about: there won't be random drawings.  That runs counter to the whole idea of the contest, which is to push us all to do more creative work with our Festool tools.

Matthew

Matthew. just to let you know that I very much agree with the way that you are running this and I am happy that you are resisting preasure to choose the winner by a draw.

 

[Bill Wyko]

...
One thing I'm very certain about: there won't be random drawings.  That runs counter to the whole idea of the contest, which is to push us all to do more creative work with our Festool tools.

Matthew

Matthew. just to let you know that I very much agree with the way that you are running this and I am happy that you are resisting preasure to choose the winner by a draw.

DITTO, I want to earn A prize. I never win when I sit around and wait to win. For me, it's like trying to win the lottery with out buying tickets. ;D

 

[greg mann]

Since I am a judge this month I want to weigh in here. Like most every other judge I have put Eiji's doors at the top of the list. The fact that he is a pro or the project shows superb craftsmanship is quite irrelevant to my decision. It is the outstanding documentation of the project that I find so compelling. He used many different Festools, and did so creatively. He made me feel that I could go down to my workshop, and using his thread as a guide, build those doors. He took the mystery out of them and showed how thoughtful application of good tools and technique could work for any of us.

Per has suggested about posting one of his bar projects. I am blown away by the craftsmanship he has put into them. I kid him all the time about taking credit for his Dad's work and he takes it all in stride. The Swensons are fine craftsmen, but for Per to outdo Eiji's offering now he would need to re-create many shots and steps that show how many of us could do some of those things. That may now be impossible, especially bacause Per is concentrating on making a living.

As far as pros having an advantage, I don't agree. They work to deadlines, they need to finish projects to eat. Taking the time to document the way Eiji did is very time consuming and that time comes right off the bottom line. As judges, we need to look for the creative uses of Festool products and success in conveying technique, and not worry about the commercial or non-commercial character of the project or craftsman. As an example, Frank's 'log cabin' project ranked very high with me as well. It was very creative and well documented, and also a project that I feel I could do using his thread as a guide. His personal qualifications? He's a loving Grandfather who used decades old fence boards. Go figure. As far as backgrounds go he and Eiji could hardly be more different. 

 

[Qwas]

I've been staying clear of this thread because, in my mind, I'm still not sure what would be fair. Pros definitely have some advantages but they also have many disadvantages. The hobbyists has all the time in the world. I'm very much an apprentice at woodworking and I don't have a project worthy of the contest (yet).

But I back up what Greg has just said. I looked at the doors when he started the thread and said "wow",  but reading Eiji's thread, I really think I can build those doors, and I might try it late this summer. His posts don't come off sounding like a professional, and I'm willing to bet he has put more time into writing the post than making the door.

At first I wanted Frank Pellow's airplane bookshelves to win because so many loved it and wanted to build it. But I'm sorry, in my mind Eiji is the winner.