Metal working

greg mann said:
teocaf said:
greg mann said:
teocaf said:
greg mann said:
I would not consider any metalworking if I did not have a drill press capable of easily drilling a 1/2 inch hole in steel. Drilling holes is the most fundamental metalworking process there is.

sorry, but i find that to be a most ridiculous statement.  it's an absolutist stance that takes a very narrow view of the vast subject of metalworking.  you can do lots and lots of all kinds of metalwork without drilling any holes.  in steel and many other metals.

and you can also create all kinds of holes without a drill press.  oxy acetylene torch, plasma cutter, mag drill, hand held drill, die grinder, etc.  you can also work with perforated material that's not necessarily drilled;  those are just a few examples off the top of my head.

To each his own. "all kinds of holes" says it all. Try putting a precise hole exactly where you need it with any of your chosen tools. A decent drill press will smoke 'em all. The only one you mention that will do a decent job at that is the mag drill, which is just a portable drill press. Disagree if you wish but my opinion cannot be written off as 'ridiculous' so easily. There is nothing more fundamental in metalworking than the capability to drill holes and there is nothing more economically positioned to do that than a drill press.

Interestingly, Par Warner claims the most important accessory to his router is his drill press. Go figure.

I don't know who Par is but I speak from my own experience in the shop combining wood and metal.  There is no doubt that a drill press is indeed a great and useful tool for both woodworking and metalworking.  The point of contention is in your first sentence:  "not consider ANY Metalworking"--that covers a whole lot of ground and whether you meant to or not, should not discourage someone like the OP to forgo considering metalworking altogether if he does not have a drill press.  I'm saying that YES, you can consider quite a few examples of metalworking without the beautiful hole.  For example if he wants some kind of rustic metal accents to his woodwork, a precise, perfect hole may not even be desired.  If one wants to do repousee copper panels for a furniture piece, one does not need to go anywhere near a drill press.  If one wants to work with extruded aluminum for cabinet frames with wood panels inset in them, one can do that as well without a drill.  So if you possess just a little bit of imagination, you can see that there are plenty of options for metalworking without any holes.  Holes are indeed great; Metal is what's fundamental to metalworking--everything else can be considered an option, depending on lots of factors.

Of course on a philosophical level, this particular discussion may not even be about metalworking per se.  It's probably more about a guy who likes to voice opinions in absolute terms or broad generalizations and another guy who takes delight in pointing out all the exceptions, or as the saying goes "poke holes in one's argument"...

My staement can just as easily be interpreted as, "I would  not consider any metalworking....."  with the emphasis on 'I' rather than 'any' , which is how it was meant to be interpreted. I will concede the ambiguity but clarify: I, personally, would not consider any metalworking without a drill press. Not absolutist and not ridiculous, just my opinion.

That is how I took it. You can loosely define "metalworking" as any activity using metal as a material (shoeing horses, casting bronze statues, constructing a battleship, etc.) however my own experience with metalworking in the shop relates to either making jigs/fixtures or metal components in conjunction with woodworking (primary focus of the FOG).

In my limited definition of metalworking I cannot see how to obtain the results I do without using a drill press.

As always, just my  [2cents] and totally subject to being disagreed with... [dead horse]

RMW 
 
A drill press is one of the tools that crosses over easily between woodworking and metal working.

A good wood working drill press has about a 6 inch stroke.  Typically, the tables are wimped out and not as rigid as they need to be for heavy metal work, but you can get by in aluminum pretty well.  In steel, you will start to get chatter from the table before you run out of hp.

Really, a drill press allows you to do an enormous amount of precise metal work.

It's the tool that transitions a shop from blacksmithing to rudimentary machine shop.

With a sawzall for cutting, a drill press, a welder, and a right angle grinder, you have a basic fab shop for wrought shapes and thin plate.  A better, heavier saw will be next after that for wrought shape and thin plate work.  Sheet metal starts with snips, hammers, and a vise.  Benders and shears get expensive but open up a lot of useful work.

You can use pop rivets and a hand drill or drill press to do a hell of a lot of sheet metal and thin wrought shape work before you spend the bucks on a welder. 
 
Richard,
+1 on the Pat Warner site.  I have many of his router bases and hope to build his router table fence sometime soon.  Have talked with him on the phone.  Great guy.

Rusty
 
Rusty Miller said:
Richard,
+1 on the Pat Warner site.  I have many of his router bases and hope to build his router table fence sometime soon.  Have talked with him on the phone.  Great guy.

Rusty

[member=53]Rusty Miller[/member]

Pat is a great character, I really want to do one of his hands-on training's. It boggles my mind how beautiful & precise his work is, mostly with a drill press & routers. Hopefully someday when I am around Escondido on other business I can add a day to the trip.

I bought some router bases also, typical deal is I email him, he give me a price, I say OK, he ships & I mail a check the next day. Most of the time I receive the shipment before he gets the check.

RMW
 
I know I'm new here, but I feel I need to chime in... as this is what I do now.

Life long builder/fabricator. I've done nearly everything else, from fiberglass/carbon fiber, casting, foam carving, vacuum forming... let's just say I've got tools for days. I actually got bored with woodworking and really wanted to go down the rabbit hole and challenge myself. Metal is the obvious choice.

Let me be the first to tell you that it's not a cheap hobby to pick up. But it's what I wanted to do, and so I attracted opportunities that afforded me the ability to re-invest in my shop and myself. It's a great time to be alive, and even a better time to be a fabricator! The tool options are out the window! But there are also tons of really cool tools that can really do quite a bit with very little money.

I know exactly what you are wanting to build, and I too have made some rustic stuff using pallet wood and bare metal. (Before we get too far into this, let me show you a secret to getting the bare metal look without having to paint the metal, but also keeping it from rusting = http://www.jaxchemicals.com/jaxshop/shopexd.asp?id=41  also check out their other stuff, they even have a rust preventer. And lastly check out the line from http://permalac.com/html/Metal.html)

OK, some tools to make your life easier when venturing down the avenue of metal work.

MiG welder is a good place to start. So is a stick welder. But then again you'll want to TiG when you feel adventurous. If you need to brush up on your skills, I highly recommend buying the DVD set of Welding Tips and Tricks. Or subscribe to his YouTube channel. Covers everything you'll ever need to know about welding, other than just you getting helmet time on your own.

Best MiG welder to start with, hands down is from Eastwood. They have a MiG 250 rig that can allow you to weld up to 1/2" plate with proper grinding and prep, plus if you get their spool gun you can MiG aluminum. This unit has a 60% duty cycle at full amerage, and a no nonsense exchange/replacement warranty that's 3 years long! The unit is only $800. Also, you'll need to invest in getting a large bottle of CO2/Argon gas. I got my bottles off craigslist, took them down and exchanged them for full bottles. Now refills are less than $60. If you think you are going to want to weld stainless, you need a separate bottle that's called tri-mix.

But I almost forgot the best part about the Eastwood welder... it's dual voltage! So if you don't have a dedicated 50 amp 220v fuse, no worries... the unit works great on 110v. Which means you can take it with you and use it on site or with a generator.

Best TiG unit for the budget minded, is AHP AlphaTIG 200X 200 Amp IGBT AC DC Tig/Stick Welder. Guess what, it's also dual voltage. It will allow you to TiG weld aluminum on 110v with the AC function. Plus it gives you that stick welder option as well. Oh, and it's usually for sell at Amazon for less than $700. Make sure you get the one that says it was made in 2015. Again, you'll need a dedicated bottle of gas for TiG welding as well. It's typically 100% argon. (Unless you want to dabble with helium mix)

But to start out, you can't really beat the specs on those machines. You will not outgrow them very fast.

Don't forget to get a plasma cutter. Makes your life wonderful. But I don't really have a recommendation on one of those other than an Hypertherm. They are over 3-4 grand for the one I want. I still don't have one of those. My plasma cutter is part of an import 5-in-1 welder that I got a long time ago and it works fine for my needs at the moment.

For metal cutting, I will suggest a 15" cold cut saw. I got the one from Evolution, and it's awesome! I actually bought a grizzly metal cut band saw, and I sold it in favor of the evolution. Stay away from chop saws with their abrasive wheels. They are dirty as all get out, and the wheels can explode. Plus it heats up the edge of the steel you are cutting and work hardens it. Also, there's a hidden gem at Harbor Freight... it's the metal cut circular saw #69702. It's the real deal, and can cut 1" plate steel almost as easily as a regular circular saw can cut wood. If you plan on cutting aluminum, I highly suggest that you get a dedicated chop saw or at least a dedicated aluminum only cutting blade for your existing saw. Do not mix them. They cut perfect and leave a machined edge. Also, you cannot use the larger 15" metal cutting saw blades on a faster spinning chop saw. It's the wrong speed and has less torque. Get a saw that's made specifically for that. There are several brands, Jancy, Fien, Evolution, Milwaukee etc... I feel that the Evo is the best value in terms of specs and price. Some day you can work up to getting a real cold cut saw that uses cutting fluid. It's not a bad idea to have a Milwaukee portable band saw. There's a great mini table stand for it at SWAG Off Road, that really makes it versatile in the shop.

Not that you can weld you will need to be able to bend and form the metal. There's all kinds of bending. I am going to eventually get a Piranha Ironworker, and larger hydraulic mandrel tube bender. But I'll tell you what I've got for now that can do those functions for a fraction of the cost.

First get yourself a Harbor Freight 20 ton press. Then head on over to SWAG Off Road, and get his heavy duty finger brake press kit. That makes your press brake rather useful for so much stuff. Upgrade the press brake's 20 ton cylinder to the air powered one. Much easier to use that way. While you are checking out SWAG, buy one of his hulk tubing roller. I've got the original set-up that had you alter the harbor freight roller. I also invested in many of his die sets. They are invaluable.

Then there's a cool little mini iron worker of sorts... it can be found over at metalcraftusa. It's their Pro XL line. It does all sorts of little things. From punching, bending, rolling shearing small stuff.

For tube bending, (less than 2") there's this great little bender from England at useful-tools.co.uk. It's an actual mandrel bender! Tight radius bends, even in aluminum. Nothing is in it's price range for it's capabilities. And I've got several types of tube benders. If you need a little more umph, and want to stick with one company's tubing dies, JD2 has the nicest products, which allows you to grow into their larger hydraulic line-up.

Since we are talking about tubing... there's a cool end notcher that is a must have. I ended up choosing the TN-250 from Baileigh Industrial. They have lots of cool stuff too.

If you are into sheet metal, well... the benders, shears and brakes are all fine from Grizzly. Basically, unless you step up to Tennsmith, made in USA type stuff, they are all the same, just painted different colors. However, there is a really cool sheet bender that comes from Baileigh, it's a magnetic sheet bender. Uses an electro magnet to hold down the top die. Which means you can bend all sorts of cool things that the other style benders will limit you. It's only $2300, and can bend 16 gauge, but I know it can bend smaller sections of 14 gauge form experience. For sheet metal welding, grab that 220v spot welder from HF. It's actually a decent machine with a lot of capability. And it's really fun to zap stuff together!

That's about all I can think of to get you started. There will always be more and more stuff that you somehow "need" and it's never ending. But I can say, that you need to invest in as many clamps and vice grips and angle blocks as you can. You can never have enough clamps. Funny... it's what we always used to say in woodworking, that still applies to metal. Just different styles of clamps and hold downs. Get yourself a decent welding or fabrication table. The heavier the better. Hint... 1/2 plate isn't thick enough for the long haul.

Oh one last thing... forget using a drill press. Invest in a Mag Drill. Trust me on this. You can get a pretty good one for around $350 on Amazon. The nicer ones start at $800. Other ways to make holes are punching. That's the preferred method of hole making in metal. Punch when you can, drill when you have to.

Good luck!
 
[member=54916]EcoMouse[/member] first off, howdy & welcome to the FOG. Great post!

Totally agree about the cold cut metal chop saw, I have the Milwaukee and use it on steel and AL with different blades. Also agree that SWAG has great stuff, although I am limited to the portaband table. I don't have the shop space for benders and press but if I did I would probably have them.

Thanks for the recommendation on the TIG machine. Sandy got my MIG, which I had not been using much so I never replaced it but I have been thinking about getting TIG so I can do some AL. I was looking at the AC/DC TIG at Eastwood but the Amazon reviews look really good on the AHP Alpha.

Years ago I had an old Millermatic 75, it was a great machine, built a couple dozen utility trailers and tons of other stuff mostly from .125-.250 tube and angle. The last one I had was the 110V Miller MIG, not so happy with that but I attribute this to it being 110V, I could never get much penetration. Both machines I ran shielded with CO2.

Questions: If you had only one machine, TIG or MIG, and wanted to weld up to .065-.250 steel and AL, which would you pick? I am familiar with MIG, never used TIG. Is the spool gun cumbersome compared to doing AL with TIG? 

Thanks, hope to see you around the FOG.

RMW
 
Thermal Arc  make good welders  and I believe they are American.
I have the  170amp invertor  stick welder. Lots of power, light to carry  and compact.

Also  metal hole saws  are good  for drilling  on lighter gauge  steels.  And fast.
Magnetic drills  need chunky  steel in order to stick.  Though you  can sandwich  thin pieces  between  thick  stock  and the mag base  and your good to go.
 
EcoMouse said:
I actually got bored with woodworking and really wanted to go down the rabbit hole and challenge myself. Metal is the obvious choice.

For metal cutting, I will suggest a 15" cold cut saw. I got the one from Evolution, and it's awesome!

Oh one last thing... forget using a drill press. Invest in a Mag Drill. Trust me on this. You can get a pretty good one for around $350 on Amazon. The nicer ones start at $800. Other ways to make holes are punching. That's the preferred method of hole making in metal. Punch when you can, drill when you have to.

[member=54916]EcoMouse[/member]
Good post, nice job of summarizing things up for someone new to the business. Spot on...

Liked your rabbit hole comment. [thumbs up]

I've got the Milwaukee chop but I use it with Evolution steel, stainless steel & aluminum blades. I used standard Milwaukee blades for a while but they get dull pretty quick. I find the Evolution blades stay sharp a lot longer and they're cheaper, and both are manufactured in Japan (probably by the same manufacturer only to different specifications).

Interesting about the mag drill, I think it's all about what you're fabricating. Drilling 1/2" or 3/4" aluminum MIC 6 will be expensive with a mag drill. Those aluminum magnets are hard to find. [poke]
I have a new Milwaukee mag drill that I purchased for an outdoor fence project. Well the project got cancelled but I kept the drill thinking I'd probably use it. Ten years later, the mag drill still sits in its case never used, while my 20+ year old Delta drill press with an oversize production table and Albrecht chuck, get used daily. Oh well...
 
[member=30413]mike_aa[/member]
You got it...6190-20. Discontinued? I'd say that's not good. [sad]

Twenty years ago I'd have said it was a good sign because they were probably upgrading with a better unit. However in the last 5-7 years (TTI ownership?) it seems like they've abanded their corded line completely and focused strictly on the M18/M12 platform.
 
Richard/RMW said:
[member=54916]EcoMouse[/member]Questions: If you had only one machine, TIG or MIG, and wanted to weld up to .065-.250 steel and AL, which would you pick? I am familiar with MIG, never used TIG. Is the spool gun cumbersome compared to doing AL with TIG?

OK, here's how it breaks down... TIG for for precision and small welding, tight spaces and thinner and sometimes more exotic materials, especially thin wall tubing. Can you do nearly everything in the shop with TIG. Yes, it's just slower and has a higher degree of manual manipulation skill required. There are cool little wire feed devices that you can attach to your torch, or a hand held wire feeder that makes the operation easier and somewhat slightly automated.

MiG is the easiest to use. It's basically like caulking gun. Use the chart on the inside of the door, set your machine and away you go. Now about MIG aluminum welding... think of it as the next step above thin sheet welding. 1/8" and thicker can be MIG welded with the spool gun. It's fairly easy. Just need longer stickout lots of juice and move that wire. (Spray Arc Transfer method) So if you want to weld things that are approaching .25 and thicker, like trailers and large structural aluminum stuff, it's almost always MIG'd in an industrial setting. Often times on the really thicker stuff they use helium or a argon/helium mix to get deeper penetration.

The great thing about the AHP welder that I mentioned, is that not only will it do aluminum and steel in the TIG mode, but it's got stick welding feature. Which is what you'd probably want to use on the thicker steel stuff anyway. If I could only buy one machine, I'd get that one and force myself to master TIG welding. That's a higher degree of skill, and thus can yield more money for welding jobs. And not that it matters, but laying a nice looking bead seems to make you look like a better welder as well. Penetration is more important than appearance. But appearance comes with practice and good technique and patience.
 
They make vacuum pads for mag drills for use on stainless and aluminum. Not a big deal.

I hear that a lot. People have mag drills sitting their cases only to be pulled out occasionally and the drill press is used instead. Mainly because it's just there and convenient.

I should have prefaced how you should keep your mag drill handy. By now, let's assume that you have a chunky welding table of some kind. You can fab up a little elevated drill press stand that your mag drill can live on. Or you can use the stand of a an existing but dead drill press. Weld a thick plate to the top of your drill press column. As long as you have a dedicated spot that the mag drill can live until it needs to become portable, you'll use it more. Annular cutters out perform twist drill bits when cutting into metal by a factor of 10. And they are faster and more accurate hole sizes.

The main reason why I shun using your shop drill press for cutting metal, is that not many people bother to change the speed to match what they are cutting. And even at the lowest speed setting with the belt change is still too fast for cutting into steel. There's a company called roguefab, they make an external pulley set that lowers your gear ratio even more for a standard drill press. I'd suggest that upgrade to your shop drill press before investing in a mag drill, if metal hole cutting was in my future. But I'd still be looking for ways to punch the holes before I'd consider drilling them.
 
EcoMouse said:
1. They make vacuum pads for mag drills for use on stainless and aluminum. Not a big deal.

2. The main reason why I shun using your shop drill press for cutting metal, is that not many people bother to change the speed to match what they are cutting.  And even at the lowest speed setting with the belt change is still too fast for cutting into steel.

3. ...but I'd still be looking for ways to punch the holes before I'd consider drilling them.

1. Didn't know that

2. Changing belt positions ia a PITA, but I do it. That's the reason I chose the drill press I did. Low end is 150 rpm. Still at times, it would be nice to be a bit slower than that. 

3. Fully agree with that statement. I have several Roper Whitney portable punches with the 5 ton No. 8 being the largest. With it I can punch a 1/2" diameter hole in 10 ga steel.

 
I just learned about unipunch. They are like C-Shaped staplers, with replaceable dies. They can go in a regular shop press. They seem to be always on e-bay. Some with dies, some without. But apparently the dies aren't expensive once you have the press itself.
 
Cheese said:
...

2. Changing belt positions ia a PITA, but I do it. That's the reason I chose the drill press I did. Low end is 150 rpm. Still at times, it would be nice to be a bit slower than that. 

Which one do you have?

Having a welding beach as well, I am thinking a mag-base might make sense.
 
Holmz said:
Which one do you have?

Having a welding beach as well, I am thinking a mag-base might make sense.

[member=40772]Holmz[/member]
I have an old Delta 70-200, 20" floor model with a coolant production table with t-slots for hold downs. It came with a #3 Morse Taper chuck so I substituted an Albrecht keyless chuck and love it.

As much as a PITA as it is to change belts, the real problem is it's missing some very valuable speeds. Here's the speed rundown:
150, 260, 300, 440, 490, 540, 1150, 1550 & 2200. Notice the hole in the middle between 540 and 1150.  [eek]
I believe Delta offered a different set of pulleys and belts that kept the low end rpm the same but took away some of the high rpm and fattened the spread of the speeds in the middle. I've yet to locate one of these kits, and as the drill press is 23 years old, the chance of finding one is getting slimmer.

 
Holz-Her said:
Can´t live without my die grinder...

And at least two angle grinders. One with a slitting disc, another with a flap disc. They are like routers, can't seem to have enough of them.
 
[member=20162]Wuffles[/member]  [not worthy] [not worthy]

I am all over that...you've now made it to my Christmas present list, one right angle grinder with a .040" cut off disc and a second right angle grinder with a flap disc. Screw the PDC...
 
Back
Top