MFT/3 Not cutting Square?? Need help very badly...I am very upset

[Saltan Wood Works]

Dear FOG members,

I hope everyone is well, I am very new in the group and huge fan of Festool. I just bought my MFT/3 table and start doing test cuts, before the test cuts and purchasing the table  I have watch every single video,tips and tricks you name it for 2 months. I also purchased Qwas dogs today and re adjust everything. My first question '' Is MFT/3 table is 100% accurate????

After my test cuts which it was on the 12'' MDF ,I took my very expensive square I assume $137, tax and shipping not included.. I see less then 1 mm off square

* I purchased 4 Qwas and I place 1 ea on both sides of the fence and did the set up. But the other 2 of the Qwas after the set up I place them middle of the fence and dogs didn't sit in the holes got stuck on the fence I had to force and push them in.

Please some one I am begging, Do you think?
Is my holes are not accurate, is my fence is not straight, or should i sell my all festool products and stop dreaming about being a very cool carpenter.

I don't know where the mistakes are happening? Most likely I am the problem not the tools but this really upsets me spending thousand of dollars and not the get accuracy. I don't want to pay $250 for seminars/how to courses from festool after spending $10.000 on festool products and paying for the learning and ask questions.

Please help

 

[Harvey]

Hi:
I'm far from an expert, but my next step would be setting up the same cut only using the Qwas dogs to align the MDF (no fence) and the guide rail.
If your cut's OK I would think your fence was damaged in the packing. Your retailer or Festool will make it right, so don't worry.
Oh, and welcome from another Canuck!

 

[semenza]

Hi Saltan,

  Welcome to the FOG!  [smile]

Don't distress, there are a ton of knowledgeable people on here and I am sure we can get you on "track"  [wink]

Seth

 

[mouppe]

If you are in or near Montreal, I would be happy to help you out.

PM me if so.

 

[Saltan Wood Works]

Hello RL, Seth and Harvey,
Thank you for your reply, I feel very happy now, you guys give me confident

  Harvey!  as soon as feed my sons I will be allover it that was very good tip Thank you

  RL ! I am in Toronto I wish I could ne closer to you

  Seth, I was following your post )

  Nice to meet you all and thank you for the help I will post the result as soon as I can)

  PS: I totally forget about my kids right now They are looking at me like hungry puppy)

 

 

[Qwas]

First, happy holidays and welcome to the FOG. Feed those kids before they turn into monsters.  [smile]

You can do a real simple test to check your holes. Stand at the end of the table and bring your head down low and eyeball down a row of holes. Don't eyeball the center of the holes but the tops of the holes and then the bottoms of the holes. If you get low enough, you can can visualize a straight line connecting the holes. Your eyes can detect a hole out of place by as little as .1 mm. so any hole out of place by .5 mm will really stand out and be easy to spot. I've not heard from any customer saying they found a hole out of place but there can be a first time.

Next, let's check your square and be sure it is square. We will assume your guide rail has a straight edge on the left side (opposite of the cut side) which can be tested later. Allow the guide rail to come all the way down on the table top and place your square against the left side so the 45 degree leg is pointing down, towards the front of the table. Draw a light line on the table top where the other leg of the square juts out perpendicular from the guide rail. Now grab that 45 degree leg and flip the square just as if you were flipping a page in a book and now the 45 degree leg points to the top of the table. Push the square until the perpendicular edge lines up with the line you drew. If it lines up perfectly then the square is pretty close to square (close enough to not cause the errors you are seeing).

You can do the same type of thing to test a straight edge for the fence and the guide rail. Draw a line down the straight edge you want to test. Then flip or rotate the test object by 180 degrees and place it back on the line. You might try this with the MDF you cut and verify you are getting a good straight cut. Be sure to look closely at the last couple of inches on the MDF to verify you are starting and ending squarely when cutting.

Be sure your plunge saw has been adjusted to fit the guide rail. The 2 green knobs on the left side of the base should be adjusted to remove any slop when the saw sits on the guide rail but not tight enough to create any drag when the saw slides down the rail.

I don't think you need to worry about giving up on woodworking. Festool stands behind their product with an excellent warranty program and I do the same with the Qwas Dogs. You were smart enough to ask questions and this misfortune will become a learning process for you.

 

[Saltan Wood Works]

  Hello Qwas,

Nice to meet you.

I Have done squaring but not the detailed way you explained, thank you for taking the time and try to help me out, I will work on it tomorrow.

PS: I was dying to buy the Bright Green Dogs but I couldn't wait I was too excited to get my dogs and start using it I ordered yesterday from Burnaby BC just received this morning ;D I am tool freak and my wife hates me [scared]..

 

[gnlman]

Hi. Welcome to fog, lots of good people here willing to help us newbies. Hang in there these are great tools, but like any tools they must be dialed in.
I read your post a few times to try and understand what you are doing with the Qwas dogs......
When you put the first 2 dogs on the ends of your fence, did you put them close to the ends of the fence? I am wondering if you perhaps put too much pressure pushing forward before locking down the protractor and "bowed" the fence a little causing the other two dogs to not sit in the holes due to the bowed fence??

Also, I had a similar issue trying to align my fence with Qwas dogs.....I put the dogs in the holes set the fence against them and locked the fence down. I then took the dogs and put them in holes away from the fence at 90 degrees used my square and everything was perfect. Then I put my square to the fence and against the rail on the mft/3 and had around 1 mm play towards the front of the table against the rail....drove me nuts for quite some time as I thought I must be doing something wrong....What I finally discovered was by squaring the fence to the holes it was perfect. If I used the Qwas dogs as a stop for my cuts they were perfect. When I used the rail which was properly seated against the stops on the extrusion I had errors......

What I also discovered was Festool never intended the holes to be used in this way, but only for their clamping elements....It was Qwas and others that discovered how accurate the hole spacing was and another uses for the holes in the table.

So what I found was by squaring the fence to the holes things were perfect. The rail on the other hand is not attached to the mdf table, but the extrusions that are around the mdf table. If the table is not mounted perfectly square to the extrusions you will introduce errors......which I had.....
I ended up moving the front rail guide over (very little) and locking it down....I simply squared up the fence with the dogs first, then squared the fence to the rail by moving the front rail support a few thousands to the left....
So since you are squaring the fence to the holes, you must also square the rail to the holes....or at least that is what worked for me.
I also eventually got rid of the protractor assembly as I found I didn't use it, and I felt it was causing me errors as well. I simply push the fence against the dogs and clamped it down with clamps.....problem solved. Qwas and others have different types of dogs that will lock your fence down without the protractor which is what I did eventually and I am always square.
There are many here with more experience than I, and like others have posted you need to make sure your measurement tools are accurate. They don't really need to be super expensive just tested to make sure they are giving you good results. The test Qwas mentioned works just fine, and most decent tool places will help you do these tests as not all squares are created equal!!
Good luck and don't give up, I think I spent a couple of months fooling around with my table and trying to learn.....the people here will make it easy for you.
Greg

 

[grbmds]

After using the fence, miter head, Parf dogs, and Lee Valley's set of clamps/dogs, I have come to the conclusion that, as others have, squaring the fence to the holes in the MFT/3 is a great way to ensure very accurate square cuts. Once set this way I try not to change it and use the Parf dogs to cut 45 degree miters and, plan to try to make other jigs for commonly used angles to lay against the Lee Valley or Parf dogs. Although setting up the fence square to the holes isn't a huge job, it does take a little time and, I found, test cuts to be sure it's as square as the eye and precision squares can detect. Squaring it to the holes allows a wide range of flexibility for working on pieces on the table where you have make sure things are square and for common angles cuts.

I have left the head on though as I think it helps secure the whole fence and really isn't that difficult to ensure it's 90 degree stop is square to the track.

 

[Saltan Wood Works]

I would like to thank every one helped me since yesterday, I got the square cut and I very very happy tonight. I got walking closet project at the same time and I can not wait to start cut my pieces on my new MFT/3.

Thanks again everyone for your help and time. If I will have any  problem with my , Carvex, Domino,OF1400 and TS55EQ which they are brand new not the the saw I will be allover this page again.

Bye for now

 

[wondersofwood]

Paul Marcel has 3 great videos on quickly squaring up the MFT/3 guides using QWAS dogs.

Here's part one:

 

[Saltan Wood Works]

Thank you for the video I will star watching them now

 

[bass cowboy]

HI Salton,

Is your Mft table still square?  I have had lots of trouble with this aspect of the festool line, very happy with the tools and tracks etc...

I wonder how other users determain if it is square?  the 5 cut method, puting 2 pieces together and flipping sides around and feeling if all sides are still flush etc.

I believe using qwas dogs or a square can not get you close enough if we are talking in a literal sense, which is needed in constructing cabinets on a top notch level.

Would anyone agree that if you change the height of the track you have already compromised the squareness due to the play that rocks left to right just in the height adjustment.

At this point it seems to me that it has to much moment in various parts to be efficient and accurate.  I have had to outsource my cabinet componets via holz her panel saw or guys with cnc machines.

I should not be complaing considering an mft table is $600 and this other stuff is what it is.

any other feedback would like to hear it, Have tried everything under the sun to keep this accurate on a consistant basis, still optimistic

thanks

 

[bkharman]

HI Salton,

Is your Mft table still square?  I have had lots of trouble with this aspect of the festool line, very happy with the tools and tracks etc...

I wonder how other users determain if it is square?  the 5 cut method, puting 2 pieces together and flipping sides around and feeling if all sides are still flush etc.

I believe using qwas dogs or a square can not get you close enough if we are talking in a literal sense, which is needed in constructing cabinets on a top notch level.

Would anyone agree that if you change the height of the track you have already compromised the squareness due to the play that rocks left to right just in the height adjustment.

At this point it seems to me that it has to much moment in various parts to be efficient and accurate.  I have had to outsource my cabinet componets via holz her panel saw or guys with cnc machines.

I should not be complaing considering an mft table is $600 and this other stuff is what it is.

any other feedback would like to hear it, Have tried everything under the sun to keep this accurate on a consistant basis, still optimistic

thanks

I don't get it...

I have had my MFT for about 6 months now.  I was in a similar situation before and through that I was going crazy trying to get a square cut on this.  Was it my TS, was it the table?  was it me?!?!?

Short answer:  Some of the above.    I then went to the FOG and got a ton of answers and help.  So I understand the frustration but don't feel that people research enough before venting on a forum like this.  I firmly believe that using dogs to line up the fences is the BEST way to accomplish accurate cuts.  I also invested in a "slop stop" that takes the play out of the underside of the fence and the pin from the base.  The setup is most definitely not "set it and forget it".  No tool is made that way...  If I change the thickness of the stock i am ripping or cross cutting, i check for square, if I move to ply, I check for square, if I move the fence for a new kerf, I check for square.

If you (or anyone else reading this) hasn't invested in some sort of dogs, you will most definitely will want to.  I think if you want an easy setup and want the most frustration-free way to cut some boards, get a set of dogs for squaring the board on the table, and a set of rail dogs to ensure that you are square on square.  For the record, I own several dogs:  Qwas, Parf, Precision, Tool Improvements and some others I am sure I forgot, but in my dog drawer, I have about 20 or so.  I reach for different ones for different purposes.

Sorry if I came off brash on the start of this reply, but I also hope I provided some useful ideas.  There are TONS of videos out there and a wealth of resources on this forum.  In fact, spend some time here (http://festoolownersgroup.com/festool-jigs-tool-enhancements/aftermarket-festool-compatible-accessories/) you will find all sorts of dog accessories.

cheers

Bryan

 

[bass cowboy]

Hi Bryan,

Dont feel brash you havent come off that way, But I do have qwas dogs, and I agree this is a much faster way of getting it squared up, but could you go in detail on that approach, have done that but it still isnt spot on, I have dogs behind the fence and use 2 more along the side of the track.  one question how are you checking your material for square.

thanks

 

[bkharman]

I check it by using the dogs again. I have 4 dogs, 2 along one edge, and 2 on another. If they are all snug, things are well. I also have a very precise triangle and some manufactured MDF boards for checking. I did it religiously for the first few weeks then realized I don't need to do it as much.

I will do my best on the setup. Are you using the MFT rail in your case?  If so use 2 dogs to align it perpendicular to the table. I would seriously spend the 15 bucks on the slop stop. Well worth it.

At this stage you have a rail perpendicular to the fence and holes. If you want a fence, invest in the dogs that attach to the fence. They come in handy. Otherwise you can use the holes and dogs to line up the board.

There are lots of examples out there on this exercise. Best to you and never hesitate to use the FOG, best resource on the web for this stuff.

Cheers.

 

[bass cowboy]

I do use the fence with the dogs behind it, Like the idea of having a couple of cnc mdf maybe 24x24 for set up jigs sounds like a no brainer, stop slop is sounding like a good choice been using tape for now. hopefully this solves the issues.

thanks

 

[sancho57]

I had the very same frustration the first few months after I got my MFT. I looked at the videos over and over. Still wouldnt come out square.

I ended up taking a festool end users class and went through the process with a instructor (Steve Bace). You probably already do this but this is what I found helped me.

1st thing I realized  when setting up is I didnt have a good true square. I bought the woodpeckers square 1281 (I think).

Next was prepping my ply. I always removed the factory edge creating a clean edge.  I use a guide rail (2 1400 connected or  my 3000 rail ) Then I rip my ply to size using the parallel guides using the clean edge to index off of. When Im cross cutting the ply, I trim off  (square up) the front  and rear edge of the ply. Consequent cuts I index off the same edge (keep the same side against the mft fence).

I hope this helps. But it all starts with a good true square.

Here is a video I just found at festool tv on setting up the MFT. Must be a new one. I havent seen it before. Around the 4 min markis where he is squareing up the rail and fence. Notice a good square is being used.



Here is a quick one, but like I said, notice he is using a good square.

 

[Saltan Wood Works]

Thank you jobsworth,

I watched the same videos may be 20 times. I am using $150 US worth Starret 12'' square and my fence and track has no gap what so ever when I put my square against the both. Also I was searching for woodpeckers 18'' triangle square that all these videos shows the same red big triangle square but I can not find it anywhere. I think they don't make them anymore. I am thinking the problem could be with my TS55EQ saw. I am still cutting off square I am very frustrated.

 

[bkharman]

I am thinking the problem could be with my TS55EQ saw. I am still cutting off square I am very frustrated.

I wouldn't hesitate to call Festool support. They can most definitely help you out.

Cheers