Microfence - is it better to get it in metric or imperial?

[Eorlingur]

If there is anything in metric land to fix, it would be to get people to stop using Centimeters.  They are Metric, but not SI.  Sadly most metric tape measures I've seen are set up with cm markings, not mm or m markings, this makes reading one wrong very easy and I suspect a big reason some folks get tripped up with metric. 

Centi is an SI prefix but it is on the way out, just like the other "odd" prefixes in the SI system. People stoped using deca a long time ago and hecto is on the last leg. The last two prefixes, deci and centi, are never used in engineering, but very practical for everyday things, kind of like the imperial system.

 

[AlexThePalex]

If there is anything in metric land to fix, it would be to get people to stop using Centimeters.  They are Metric, but not SI.  Sadly most metric tape measures I've seen are set up with cm markings, not mm or m markings, this makes reading one wrong very easy and I suspect a big reason some folks get tripped up with metric. 

Nope, centimeter is the easiest understandable size in metric (and especially in woodworking), since most objects used by people are the easiest expressed in centimeters. How big is your coffee cup? 10 cm. How wide? 7 cm. Nobody is going to say 0,1 meter or 100 millimeter.

Science has not made cm a Si unit because you can't make every unit an SI unit, and mm is better used on the smaller end for the precision science often needs, and m for the larger distances they need to calculate. 

 

[DeformedTree]

If there is anything in metric land to fix, it would be to get people to stop using Centimeters.  They are Metric, but not SI.  Sadly most metric tape measures I've seen are set up with cm markings, not mm or m markings, this makes reading one wrong very easy and I suspect a big reason some folks get tripped up with metric. 

Nope, centimeter is the easiest understandable size in metric (and especially in woodworking), since most objects used by people are the easiest expressed in centimeters. How big is your coffee cup? 10 cm. How wide? 7 cm. Nobody is going to say 0,1 meter or 100 millimeter.

Science has not made cm a Si unit because you can't make every unit an SI unit, and mm is better used on the smaller end for the precision science often needs, and m for the larger distances they need to calculate.

I'm going to disagree here.  As mentioned,  cm isn't SI since it doesn't follow the milli, kilo, mega, etc  3 place system.  Also I don't find centimeter useful at all,  you are right back to one of the issue of inches, some stuff you go sub-inch, other thing multi-inch.  With mm, you basically are always multi-millimeter and rarely using anything on the other side of the decimal place. Your examples are things that I would definitely call out in mm,  saying 7 and 10cm would just be odd and if speaking around non-metric folks be very likely to cause them to think 7" and 10".  Unless you start getting into buildings and such,  design/engineering is done in mm.  Works great, you have the small features in simple single to double digit mm, big stuff may get out into 4 digits.  If you see a decimal point it's clueing you in that your probably looking at a tight hole dimension or a tolerance. I have designed stuff that goes 4 place digits, but exceeding 9999mm is going to be rare, and at that point you probably would jump to meters.  Even on a big machine (dumptruck, track hoe), you are unlikely to find a single part with dimensions over 10m,  thus the whole thing will be designed in mm.  If you use GD&T, this really comes into force as having basic dimensions all be whole digits makes for a much cleaner print.

Just look at cabinetry,  I don't think anyone calls it 3.2cm cabinets.  Look at the Festool rails, they are 3000mm rails, not 300cm. Carrying digits the other side of the decimal around all the time just causes headaches.

For those that have to convert things roughly in their head, thinking 1" ~25mm, thus 100mm ~4" is generally a lot easy to think of real quickly than. 1" ~2.5, thus 10cm ~4".  floating point math slows people down.  It may sound silly, but people do 100/25=4. way faster than 10/2.5=4 when doing it in their head.

I think the usage of cm is one of the things that contributed to the semi-failed adoption of metric in the US, it just made things more complex for folks.

 

[DeformedTree]

Give me a third of metric unit. In a ten base system that is not possible. This holds true for any non factor of ten. So draw me a line that is 1000mm in length, take your layout dividers and break that line into 6 equal parts and give me your measurement. In whole units. Not an approximation. This gets into Significant Digits and observed values. A discussion unto itself. In the standard system you can express and calculate without the approximation. This is not possible using the metric system or the SI.

So the fraction issue exist just the same in inch as it does in metric. It's just a matter of how it's hidden.  You can't have a 1/3rd" drill bit.  You have to truncate someplace.  This is where problems crop up, if people work it out in fractions because they think they don't have a truncation problem, when it goes to get translated to the physical world, then reality kicks in.  Thus why it's best to eliminate the fractions up front.  Don't do 1000/6,  look at it and decide if 160, 165, or 166mm increment would be better.

Of course then you have the computer people who want use to be base 16 so there 2,4,8,16,32,64, etc progression works out nice.

Fraction have their place in speaking, and eyeballing things, it's not like people are going to stop saying things like "chop in half" or cut into 3rds and such.  It's the shift from general speaking to actual making something.

With wood, at some point going finer measurement does nothing for you, moisture changes and such are going to shift the material dimensions more than anything you can measure.

 

[Michael Kellough]

[member=2242]tallgrass[/member] said,

“I would also say that in wood working the mm is a very coarse unit”

I think a millimeter is a nearly perfect unit for woodworking. It’s almost as fine as 1/32” and it’s pretty easy to divide it in two which is close to 1/50”. I’d prefer to keep my work closer to 1/64” or better but it’s so hard to tell one from another that I’d rather just split the mm.

But the best reason to favor millimeters in woodworking is their ubiquity. While 1/32” increments are available for only the first foot of most tape measures millimeters are printed for the entirety of every metric measure I’ve seen.

 

[AlexThePalex]

I'm going to disagree here. 

Your examples are things that I would definitely call out in mm,  saying 7 and 10cm would just be odd and if speaking around non-metric folks be very likely to cause them to think 7" and 10". 

I think the usage of cm is one of the things that contributed to the semi-failed adoption of metric in the US, it just made things more complex for folks.

I'm guessing you don't really have much experience with centimeters here, do you?

The failure of metric in the US has nothing to do with anything about it being complex, it has to do with stubbornness and not wanting to change. The rest of the ENTIRE world made the same change once and they had no problem. It is really quite simple once you get the hang of it.

 

[Jiggy Joiner]

Growing up in England, I remember “old money” pre decimalisation, and imperial measurements. Then we got introduced to decimal money when we started our “cough” love affair with the EU.
At first we all hated it, and everybody kept converting back, especially the elderly, same with measuring.

Eventually when I left school in 1974, I started my apprenticeship, we were working in millimetres. I must admit, I found it a good and easy method, not ever used centimetres in work, I like it simple.
I still work in millimetres now, and although I still know how to convert to imperial, I’d prefer to stay metric.

Same with the money, strangely, when I go fishing I use LB’s and oz’s to weigh fish as do many English anglers. We’re a funny old bunch I guess?

All said and done, I think people should use whatever they’re comfortable with 

 

[DeformedTree]

I'm going to disagree here. 

Your examples are things that I would definitely call out in mm,  saying 7 and 10cm would just be odd and if speaking around non-metric folks be very likely to cause them to think 7" and 10". 

I think the usage of cm is one of the things that contributed to the semi-failed adoption of metric in the US, it just made things more complex for folks.

I'm guessing you don't really have much experience with centimeters here, do you?

The failure of metric in the US has nothing to do with anything about it being complex, it has to do with stubbornness and not wanting to change. The rest of the ENTIRE world made the same change once and they had no problem. It is really quite simple once you get the hang of it.

I know metric is simple. I want to see inches eradicated. The US has converted, but at a thin layer on top, we cover it all with inches and most folks are unaware almost everything around them is metric, heck the inch based system we use is defined by the metric system.  Legacy support and construction  (the materials not the tools) are the last places there is much inch,  for the most part all industry changes in the 70s and 80s.  The failed metric conversion in the late 70s on the very top level had multiple reasons for failure, a lot of which was directly political.  For people though it was largely bungled because they tried to teach conversion to folks, instead of just "this is now this".  So for people it meant they just kept converting everything instead of living in it.  Still, the shift does continue.  Largely due to global realities. If it's not made in the US, it's unlikely to be inch in anyway. The US continues to be a smaller portion of the world, and companies become more global so they do everything metric.  In many ways inches will go away simply due to die off of people.  The US could complete the change tomorrow if we wanted, but those who drive such changes are in general from a generation that is against such things. A politician who mentions metric gets mocked.  So for now, we are were we are.

centimeter just isn't a good unit and it causes problems.  Be in a meeting and everyone is talking in mm and you have the 1 person who keeps using cm. It just trips everyone up.  I'm well aware that using cm instead of mm is more common in some countries, but that doesn't change that it shouldn't be used. Otherwise you are always dealing with a chance of a "spinal tap" moment.

 

[Cheese]

This metric vs imperial issue is a difficult subject to capture correctly because there are so many variables. I've been around long enough to remember the state funded programs where the interstates had their speed limit signs reposted in both imperial & metric. It literally cost millions upon millions of dollars and that was in the 60's & 70's. Hmmm...that didn't work too well.

Then there's always the "this is now this" approach. If your doctor used this approach on you for a non-threatening health issue, how well would that go over? My guess is that wouldn't work too well.

This metric standard issue will eventually pass, however it will take an additional 50 years or so for this to be accomplished. The old guys like me need to die and the next couple of groups behind me also need to die...then there's a chance of this happening. Like everything else in life, it all takes time. Just mandating the universal implementation of something as innocuous as a measuring standard wouldn't work too well.

Don't get me wrong, I harbor no grudges against the metric system and all of my Festools are metric tools (except for the HKC and that really irritates me) however, after living as long as I've had, I've abandoned my Pollyanna view of the world and traded it in for reality.

 

[AlexThePalex]

centimeter just isn't a good unit and it causes problems.  Be in a meeting and everyone is talking in mm and you have the 1 person who keeps using cm. It just trips everyone up.  I'm well aware that using cm instead of mm is more common in some countries, but that doesn't change that it shouldn't be used. Otherwise you are always dealing with a chance of a "spinal tap" moment.

No, it is a total non-issue you have here with cm. People go effortlessly from one unit to the other without giving it a second thought.

In daily use we have the 4 most common units, millimeter, centimeter and meter to name everything that's within a human scale, and kilometers to measure the distances we travel. It is really not hard to understand de 10 based differences between those units.

 

[DeformedTree]

The old guys like me need to die and the next couple of groups behind me also need to die...then there's a chance of this happening. Like everything else in life, it all takes time.

Now now, we don't need you to die, that just would give metric a bad name, that's a "hard conversion" that is way to hard.  We can just put stickers on you until you live out your useful life.  [tongue]

I know plenty of old folks would would be just fine with Metric instant conversion. And of course I know young folks who don't see a point to metric.  I don't think an aggressive effort today would be anything like the the previous one.  The world is now so interconnected, and companies/people global that far fewer people would see it as an un-needed change or "invasion".  The internet has made folks so used to things not being "America only". In many ways the internet/cell phones has been a far bigger change to people every day than metric shift would be, and make that change far more seamless.  Additionally we have now had metric values of stuff hanging around on things for 40 years, while people don't all live in those units they are far more aware of them than they were back then.

There really just hasn't been a push for it, politicians don't move on something until it gets to a point that it makes for a loss in the election booths.  It probably really wouldn't take a lot to get the ball rolling aggressively.  We have seen some things in the last decade that no one thought would happen quickly suddenly move very fast. Once something gets some momentum and people start to think about it more it can happen.  I'm not going to get into politics, but just leave it at look at some current issues that no politician would stand up for not long ago are now gaining momentum fast by them.  Sometimes it just takes a small thing to disrupt a system.  Very often it's a case of most people wanted the change, but all feared speaking up until one did then you get a chain reaction. 

 

[Jiggy Joiner]

If there is anything in metric land to fix, it would be to get people to stop using Centimeters.  They are Metric, but not SI.  Sadly most metric tape measures I've seen are set up with cm markings, not mm or m markings, this makes reading one wrong very easy and I suspect a big reason some folks get tripped up with metric. 

Nope, centimeter is the easiest understandable size in metric (and especially in woodworking), since most objects used by people are the easiest expressed in centimeters. How big is your coffee cup? 10 cm. How wide? 7 cm. Nobody is going to say 0,1 meter or 100 millimeter.

Hi Alex, to be honest that’s exactly how a lot of us in the UK measure, in millimeters.
I am a general builder with carpentry as my trade, and also also brickwork and plastering when my back allows, and we do everything in millimeters.

I know of many older builders who still work in feet and inches too, which in my opinion is only making things more confusing for themselves. Mainly because the majority of the materials we buy here, has dimensions in metric. Many replacement window and door companies here use millimeters only, never meters or centimeters.
A lot of our plumbing fittings are still made and sold in imperial as well as metric.

For example, I just ordered before Christmas, three sets of aluminium sliding doors:
One set at 1976mm W 2243mm H, 1982mm W 2243mm H and 1974mm W 2243mm H. The order was sent, and drawings were stated as outside view, as that’s another standard window companies here seem to use generally.

Sometimes we order sheet material as 8’ x 4’ and 6’ x 3’ as well as 2400 x 1200 and 1800 x 900 and the person at the suppliers know instantly either way what we mean as they also use the same terms.
The thickness is where using millimeters is easier, as some are under 1cm thick, 9.5mm for example.

Then, when we’re driving to the suppliers, our speed signs are in imperial!  [big grin]
As I mentioned earlier we’re a strange bunch over here.

I think the guys accross the pond are a bit like the UK when it comes to letting go of tradition and habits etc, and of course there’s the “if it ain’t broke........” attitude with many.

I can happily use imperial or metric but, I like to stick to a standard, and prefer anybody working for me, and with me to use the same standard. For simplicity and accuracy, we (at my company) work in millimeters and it works well for us.

I think from reading a few threads recently, it’s very much country and trade related, as to what system people measure with?

 

[Farming_Sawyer]

In the kitchen I use metric, works so much easier.... on the job site I learned to shade fractions of an inch on the tape...7/8ths minus for 13/16ths... or tell the cut guy to take a half a kerf... Then send the board back to remove a "red one".....
This week I made my first metric set of cabinets, as opposed to cabinets using the imperial system, guessing at the metric stuff. It was so much easier just to work in m start to finish. While my tools are imperial, having a dual marked tape made life easier. No fractions or decimals. For me... And my customers, the mm is as fine as I need to go. Anything less gets too fussy and I've seen woods change more than a mm in width or thickness in the course of a day. As I always remind the local furniture school president when he complains that the wood from my sawmill isn't kiln dried... The finest furniture ever built was made with hand tools, air dried wood, non-machine engraved  scales, etc.
I for one will be getting a micro fence in metric...

 

[Cheese]

After reading Jiggy's comments I decided to read about UK metrification. The following statement is from Wikipedia.

"Adopting the metric system was discussed in Parliament as early as 1818 and some industries and even some government agencies had metricated, or were in the process of metricating by the mid-1960s. A formal government policy to support metrication was agreed by 1965. This policy, initiated in response to requests from industry, was to support voluntary metrication, with costs picked up where they fell. In 1969 the government created the Metrication Board as a quango to promote and coordinate metrication." And the road signage issue wasn't even addressed until 2015.

Consequently, I'll retract my statement that the US will be converted to metric in 50 years. It'll be more like 100 years.  [eek] 

It's been 60 years already for the UK and they have still not converted everything. The only industry I know of in the US that has converted is the spirits/wine industry while the beer industry continues with ounces which is similar to the UK which still uses pints.  [tongue]

The entire Wikipedia article is here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metrication_in_the_United_Kingdom

 

[tallgrass]

[member=2242]tallgrass[/member] said,

“I would also say that in wood working the mm is a very coarse unit”

I think a millimeter is a nearly perfect unit for woodworking. It’s almost as fine as 1/32” and it’s pretty easy to divide it in two which is close to 1/50”. I’d prefer to keep my work closer to 1/64” or better but it’s so hard to tell one from another that I’d rather just split the mm.

But the best reason to favor millimeters in woodworking is their ubiquity. While 1/32” increments are available for only the first foot of most tape measures millimeters are printed for the entirety of every metric measure I’ve seen.

The metric system is handy for certain things. This is all about choice. You can choose in one system and not in the other. Nearly perfect is not perfect and is a plate of too bad.  there are ways of of using fine scales along with coarser larger scales. While a Lockheed it was common to see machinists using hook scales and larger scales or even tape measures. It works as a vernier scale. it was shocking what these guys could resolve when we would check their layouts optically.

 

[Jiggy Joiner]

After reading Jiggy's comments I decided to read about UK metrification. The following statement is from Wikipedia.

"Adopting the metric system was discussed in Parliament as early as 1818 and some industries and even some government agencies had metricated, or were in the process of metricating by the mid-1960s. A formal government policy to support metrication was agreed by 1965. This policy, initiated in response to requests from industry, was to support voluntary metrication, with costs picked up where they fell. In 1969 the government created the Metrication Board as a quango to promote and coordinate metrication." And the road signage issue wasn't even addressed until 2015.

Consequently, I'll retract my statement that the US will be converted to metric in 50 years. It'll be more like 100 years.  [eek] 

It's been 60 years already for the UK and they have still not converted everything. The only industry I know of in the US that has converted is the spirits/wine industry while the beer industry continues with ounces which is similar to the UK which still uses pints.  [tongue]

The entire Wikipedia article is here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metrication_in_the_United_Kingdom

Thanks for the link Cheese, I enjoyed reading that, and I guess that about sums it up. We’re really still in limbo over here, I remember the outcry when we were told we would be buying our food in KG’s instead of LB’s and oz’s. There really was a lot of unhappy people, protests etc. There were a few companies advertising that they sold meat or vegetables in LB’s and oz’s instead of metric, and they insisted they would never change despite being threatened with prosecution, haha!

There was like a compromise for a while, where food’s weight was stated in metric and imperial, apparently helping people convert. Now I think it’s all marked in metric?
In the pubs, beer is still sold by the pint as you rightly mentioned.  [big grin]

 

[tallgrass]

By the pint!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! or the horror!!!!!!  we have to stop this backward thinking! What is the superior quantity that people wish to imbibe in single units in a pub? Just joking

 

[DeformedTree]

Consequently, I'll retract my statement that the US will be converted to metric in 50 years. It'll be more like 100 years.  [eek] 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metrication_in_the_United_Kingdom

Give the Metrication in the US article a wirl.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metrication_in_the_United_States

Thomas Jefferson was working to have USA metric from the start, but a plot by Weather and Pirates thwarted it.

The linked article is quiet good and does a good job showing that the US is much more metric than most realize, but it's also easy for folks not to realize depending on what they do for a living.  If you are in the sciences, engineering, manufacturing you live in a metric country for the most part and live some aspects of your life were use of inches is flat out banned (college, various contracts, etc).  Someone that is more of the service industries though could be largely oblivious to the metrification of things.

still, you can see how people keep trying,  Hawaii and Oregon have had recent political efforts to complete the conversion.

Canada will probably be one of the bigger causes of US metrification long term.  While small (1/10th the US), a lot of the raw material used in hold out industries (construction) comes from there.  Also when you live close to Canada metric becomes more normal, just things like the weather being given in dual temps and sometimes depending on the station, just C.

 

[rljatl]

Don't let this happen to you!  [big grin]

NASA Metric Mishap

 

[Cheese]

If you are in the sciences, engineering, manufacturing you live in a metric country for the most part and live some aspects of your life were use of inches is flat out banned (college, various contracts, etc).  Someone that is more of the service industries though could be largely oblivious to the metrification of things.

That’s an interesting perspective, however I worked as an engineer in the semiconductor field for 30 years. There are few industries as detailed as the semiconductor industry as far as the nits & picks go.
Truth be told, I think the only fields that do more due diligence to the details are atomic energy, space exploration and the military.  And the military could be considered a rather iffy issue.

Having said that, metrification in the semiconductor field was still just giving lip service to your vendors. Everything was designed in imperial and then “translated into metric” to give the customer a warm fuzzy and to sell a contract. It’s called dual dimensioning. 

We are where we are because we’ve given this whole metrification issue lip service and have never fully embracedthe change to metric. We’re pretty much at a stalemate at this time as far as the US is concerned.