misalignment of joints using the domino

[fesfrank]

I would like to know how to repetitively make flush joints with the domino joiner,  maybe I'm doing something wrong.  I use it like a biscuit joiner, maybe that's the problem?  I had a cabinet job and I was so frustrated with it i haven't used it since.  Its brand new and I would live to use it and get a consistent result.   Has anyone else had this problem,and if so how did you solve it.  Thanks    

 I still love all my other FESTOOLS [big grin]

 

[harry_]

Even with a biscuit jointer, you should not let the baseplate rest on the table. Else you will tend to have alignment issues vertically. A biscuit is just more forgiving

 

[Warrior]

not sure what you mean by joiner in midair. but I use the fence and also use the base when needed and havent an issue with alignment unless Im rushing.

If you are having alignment issues while using the fence. check to see if the fence locks parrallel with the base. if it doesnt it may need some warranty work.

 

[fshanno]

You should be able to use it like a biscuit jointer.  How far off are you?

 

[PeterK]

You are not alone with this problem. I had/have the same issue when trying to attach wide hardwood edging to plywood panels. Never could get the "hang" of it. Even took my Domino to Lebanon to work with the instructors there and still no improvement. Think a lot of it is just with using it with plywood. Oh - and some is just how fussy you are. I thought I could get nice flush joints but no such luck. Working with plywood gives very little room for error as just can not do much sanding without going through the veneer. Ended up purchasing a DowelMax based upon Frank Pellow's comments here. Quite a bit slower but absolutely dead-on results with no special tricks required and no practice needed. Hope you get this figured out as I hope to learn from following this post.

 

[CList]

EDIT: First line should have said "had NO problems"!

That's weird, I just built two plywood cabinets with 4 dominos at each corner and had no problems, it lines up great. I love it, and I've only had it for less than a month.

I think I can help because I suspect I know what your problem is (I had to go through a little play period where I made a bunch of mistakes and thought about the consequences of various settings a bit before I got a work-flow going that works right every time.) ...but I want to clarify some things before I make any suggestions...

Let's assume you're making a box with the edge of the top and bottom butting to the faces of the sides...

When you say "not flush" I assume that the edges of two pieces - i.e. the front edges when you're looking through the box - are all lining up fine - if not you're having a side-to-side alignment issue. If the top / bottom faces are not flush with the top and bottom edges of the sides (which is harder to get right I've found) then you're have a fence-depth issue (we'll call it an "up/down" issue - though that's not really accurate).  Which "not flush" issue are you having?

If it's the up/down issue, is the whole edge off by the same amount or is one end flush while the other is off (i.e. the top or bottom is sloping up or down relative to the side).

We should also clarify what we mean by acceptable tolerances - I'd say the stuff I built is not 100% perfect on every joint, but in pretty much all cases where I notice it being out of flush, it's maybe only a 1/64 out. I'll try and take some pics later, but I may not be back to my shop today.

Cheers,
Chris

 

[CList]

BTW, I did all my joints with the fence set to 90degrees and my custom base-plate attachment shown in this thread:
http://festoolownersgroup.com/festool-jigs-tool-enhancements/domino-gadget-for-box-building/30/

I do the faces like so:

...and the edges with the domino "floating in mid air" - though I would call it "supported by the fence at 90 degrees".

Also note that I have one of the newer fences and it does not have any issue with "slipping" when set to 90 degrees.

Cheers,
Chris

 

[fshanno]

I love putting cases together with dominoes.  Now I use all butt joints, no rabbets, no dados.  I use 6x40's in melamine and 8x40's in ply.  I have to remember to change the plunge depth between bottoms and sides but I get a stronger case I think than I would get with 5x30's

I screw the parts together and don't bother with glue.  Just enough screws to get the internal seems to close and look snug.  Sometimes I use pocket screws but that's time consuming so I just use the self drilling, self counter sinking

I'm looking at two methods I haven't used with Dominos. 

On my next plywood job I'm going to try nails.  I'm going to start out not gluing and see.  Probably end up gluing. 

And then at some point I want to use glue and no mechanical fasteners at all.  I'm going to try to come up with something that simulates a case clamp.  Something that clamps and squares at the same time and yet is cheap, portable and fast.  I'm probably dreaming.

Anyway.  I'm committed to the Domino for case assembly.  Like CList, I use an adaptation for box/case building but mine is just a board that screws to the bottom of the Domino.  You'll see it on the same thread he linked.  It makes a difference.

So from one Frank to another, I say keep trying. 

 

[fesfrank]

Thank You for all of the responses.  I was talking about the joint being unflush vertically.  It wasn't consistant though.  I'm going to play with it some more,  it may be that I have a fingernail tolerance when it comes to a flush joint.            I really like this site and I appreciate all of the help.

 

[CList]

Yeah, that's what I figured (vertical misalignment). The issue I had with was that when you mortise into the EDGE you have to have right face up.... even if you set the fence-height to be half the width of the work piece, it could still be off by a bit. If you have the fence height set to something other than work-piece height / 2, you will still get a flush joint if you mortise with the correct face up (assuming of course the fence never changes). The correct face to have facing up when you do the edge should be the one on the OUTSIDE of joint. So if the top/bottom butts into the sides, then you'd want the top of the top piece facing up when you mortise it's edges, and the bottom of the bottom piece facing up when you mortise it's edges. You put the 90-degress fence (with the big handle) on this up-facing face. That's the big secret that I don't think I saw in either the manual or the supplemental manual. If you have the wrong face up (the inside face) the mortises in the edge will be off center in the wrong-direction relative to the other workpiece.

One way you can be sure to get it right is to put the two pieces the way you want them before you mortise, then mark with a pencil across the joint as if you were making a mark to use to position the dominoes. If you can see the mark through the window on the fence when you make your mortise then you have the fence resting on the correct face of the workpiece.

Note again, this is for using the domino the way I have it in the pic I posted - with the fence at 90 degrees. I keep the tool in that setup both for the face mortise (as in the picture), and for the edge mortise (when the tool is "floating in mid-air").

Cheers,
C

 

[CList]

Here's a pic of what I was talking about with making a mark across the OUTSIDE of the joint. You don;t have to use the mark for aligning the domino left-right, you just want to be sure you can see the mark through the window on the fence before you start using the tool on a given face/edge.

[attachthumb=#]

You can also see a close-up of the resulting joint. It might look slightly not-flush at the corner due to the fact that the corner of the horizontal piece is a little dented (this was a dry-fit before I edge-banded). This is with four dominos - with *all* mortises on the "tight" setting, and me rushing to get it done after a long day - and it's about as good as you can get, IMO. Horizontal alignment was done using the dogs on the fence and the guide-stops for the inner mortises.

[attachthumb=#]

[attachthumb=#]

Cheers,
Chris

 

[Jimhart]

Could it be the 'slipping fence' problem that's been discussed here before?

 

[tbellemare]

When I have suffered misalignment issues, it was generally caused by either bad registration or plunge speed.

It's easy to get in a hurry and violate the basics, like making certain that you're registering off the appropriate surface ON THE WORK PIECE. I have caught myself thinking I was registering from the top of the work piece and realized later, when misaligned, that I had the shoe sitting on the table instead of the fence sitting on the work piece.

It's easy to get careless or distracted. If you develop a work flow and practices that are repeatable and simple, it's easier to get it right every time. One thing that helps avoid a lot of mistakes is to always have the end of the work piece that receives the mortise dangling off the table. Another thing, as mentioned above, is to mark both pieces so you know you're on the correct surface and in the correct direction.

Tom

 

[CList]

Could it be the 'slipping fence' problem that's been discussed here before?

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but AFAIK, that's no longer an issue with the newer fences (the ones with the "paddles" instead of the pins). It hasn't been a problem for me so far, and I've gone out of my way to try to get it to slip.

Cheers,
Chris

 

[fesfrank]

"EUREKA"  (I think thats how you spell it) .  I was using my domino and sure enough it was in fact user error.  I got a good groove with it now and performed repetitive flush joints (within a 64th of an inch, easily sandable).  I was holding it with the base on the table where i had to just rest the horizontal guide on the workpiece and keep the base in the air so to speak.  Plunge nice and easy and release smoothly while keeping the tool steady.  I'm very excited this tool is awesome.  I was also interested in the RO 150 E and was curious for the feedback.          Thanks again everyone!!!

 

[CList]

Cool man, glad to hear it! There is a bit of a feel thing involved with where to put pressure and where not to, how fast to go, etc.
It is pretty sexy when it works and the pieces fit together perfectly without ever having to take a single measurement or having to mess with clamps to try and get it square before you put screws in...

Cheers,
Chris

 

[mouppe]

Chris,

I must have used my domino three or four times on butt joints and getting a non-flush result before I figured out that I was registering off the wrong face on the vertical panel. Man it was frustrating. Then the eureka moment came and I have not had a problem since. I couldn't have explained it better than you did but reading how many other people go through the same problem makes me think this must be a domino user's rite of passage!

Richard.

 

[CList]

Chris,

I must have used my domino three or four times on butt joints and getting a non-flush result before I figured out that I was registering off the wrong face on the vertical panel. Man it was frustrating. Then the eureka moment came and I have not had a problem since. I couldn't have explained it better than you did but reading how many other people go through the same problem makes me think this must be a domino user's rite of passage!

Richard.

I hear ya man!
I knew intuitively that there had to be a right way and wrong way unless the bit was perfectly centered in the edge, and given how the height stops for the fence didn't include an "18mm" setting (standard plywood), I knew that centering it must not be a requirement. Still, while it seems mindless now, when I was first starting I had to run it over in my head quite a few times before I figured it out. The way I ultimately satisfied myself was by setting it up so that the mortise was about as NOT centered as it could be while still fitting into the edge. (e.g. setting the height to the 25mm stop while mortising an 18mm edge). If you set it up that way, then when you put the fence on one face to do the edge, the joint will be WAY off, when you put it on the other face, it'll be perfect. It also becomes really obvious which way it should go because you can see how far the face-mortise is from the edge and you know where it'll have to go in the edge to line up.

That's another good thing to keep in mind with the domino - while it's good from a strength perspective to have the tenons centered, there is no requirement from an alignment perspective to do that - so don't sweat it if you've got the height setting a little off; as long as the height setting is the same for both the edge mortise and the face mortise (and you have the board flipped the right way when you do the edge) it'll come out fine.

Cheers,
Chris

 

[Sam Murdoch]

Chris's tip about keeping just off center is a very valuable clue to frustration free Domino (and Lamello) use. You know right away that you are mating incorrectly. (If you could only do that in your love life ...)

As for strength, when using the Domino to make cabinet bottoms, or shelf, to side panel connection I prefer to have more material left in the top thickness of my bottom or shelf rather than setting the tenon into the middle. Just seems logical.

 

[Brice Burrell]

Chris's tip about keeping just off center is a very valuable clue to frustration free Domino (and Lamello) use. You know right away that you are mating incorrectly. (If you could only do that in your love life ...)

As for strength, when using the Domino to make cabinet bottoms, or shelf, to side panel connection I prefer to have more material left in the top thickness of my bottom or shelf rather than setting the tenon into the middle. Just seems logical.

I wholeheartedly agree on both accounts. [thumbs up]