Missile Touch-Ups?

Per Swenson said:
Wars are first fought with propaganda.

Per

Per, I don't believe that the nation of propaganda has been firing rockets and mortars daily into the nation of Israel?

An Israeli military show of force is a brush back warning to her Hamas attackers that they take these threats serious.

But let's not detract from the OP discussion

 
Wooden,

You just did.

So one simple question.

Do the Palestinians have a State yet?

No?

Gee, being from the west I pretty much have the concept to the right of self determination

taken for granted.  Take that right away on land and life that my family has cherished for I dunno 800 years or so....

I am going to be a wee bit agitated.

Then stick my self determined freedom lovin backside in a refugee camp for 40 years,

add in some generational hateful rhetoric, mix with tribalism and religious fervor, remember that old adage

I may have nothing, but I have my faith? Then remove all hope.

Gawd of your choice there Wooden, Just what would you lob?

Per
 
Per, If I were a Palestinian, the first bomb I would lob is the one telling where the billions of dollars of aid to the Palestinian people went!
 
Maybe so.

Corruption is another human trait that needed to be added to the mix.

But the root of all conflict is Blood and Treasure.

Come on, it's a desert, what could possibly be of value in a Desert?

Being a American I grew up believing in a certain super hero.

His motto was Truth, Justice, and The American way.

I really believed the truth and justice part. Now? Not so much.

Update.... I see the link doesn't work.
so a excerpt.

Basheer K. Nijim1
(1) Dept. of Geography, University of Northern Iowa, 50614-0406 Cedar Falls, IA, USA

Abstract  The quest for water resources by Zionist leaders started in the early years of the Zionist movement. Attempts were made to delimit Palestine according to rivers and headwaters. This quest has been independent of the political status of the territory of Palestine. The quest was intense in the early 1950s during the Johnston negotiations, and it became especially crucial after the 1967 occupation by Israel of the rest of Palestine, the West Bank. Lebanon's Litani river has been included in Israeli considerations, as well as the Jordan river's tributary the Yarmuk river. The Kingdom of Jordan's development plans for the latter may be compromised. Control of underground water resources in the West Bank is deemed essential to Israel, given their importance to the ground supply of pre-1967 Israel. Israel is unlikely to relinquish control of the water resources of the West Bank in the ev

Per
 
Per Swenson said:
Being a American I grew up believing in a certain super hero.

His motto was Truth, Justice, and The American way.

I really believed the truth and justice part. Now? Not so much.

Per

I can understand that. The meaning of "The American Way" has been under attack of dissolution for a long time. Certainly there is going to be some casualties, sorry to hear you are one of them.
 
I see.

Truth and Justice are no longer part of the American way.

It is  just the American way.

That is what you are saying, no?

Help me out. correct me if I am wrong.

But it seems to me with out truth and justice the real casualties are those

that blindly believe what they are told and go quietly down the garden path.

Per
 
Woodenfish said:
b_m_hart said:
You want these types of threats to diminish?  You have to talk to people.  It's that simple.  You don't intimidate people into doing what you want them to.  If your wife is doing something that annoys you, do you threaten to hit her?  When your neighbor's dog takes a crap on your lawn, do you threaten to kill his dog?

When the person who is threatening you has a habit of supporting state sponsored terrorism, what is there to negotiate when they tell you that they want to kill you?

Your analogy is misguided. It should be, if you find out that your wife hired a hitman to kill you, do you call the police and lock her up? If your neighbor trains his dog to be violent against you and this dog has a history of physical attacks against you, do you have the police shoot the dog and prosecute the neighbor?

My original point by example is that The New York Times and the other major media players listed in the OP article withheld key information about a very aggressive, very bold and very successful missile test from one of the three axis's of evil in a threat against us. Their report focused instead on the silliness of "photoshopping" and diminishing this threat.

"In a sentiment no doubt echoed by news organizations everywhere, an MSNBC editor acknowledged that the four-missile picture was initially welcomed with open
arms. ?As the media editor working the msnbc.com home page yesterday, I was frustrated with the quality of a fuzzy video image we published of the Iranian missile launch,? said Rich Shulman, the network?s associate multimedia editor. ?So I was thrilled when the top image crossed the news wires.?"


One defense official said that ?at least 7, and possibly up to 10″ had taken flight in all, though the intelligence data was still being sorted out. Only one of them was said to be a Shahab 3."

The OP article's authors seem happy that Iran is test firing missiles but are ignorant that those types of missiles might later be used to kill them. By reading the article you would come to the conclusion that these authors and news organizations apparently have no idea that Iran is a danger but is nothing more than a bunch of flunkies in computer enhancement of photography.

The report basically insulted their readers by supplying misinformation and diminished the serious nature of the threat to something more palatable like Photoshopping. Something their readers can understand. No where in the article did they say what a Shahab 3 is or it's planned usage was unlike the article posted the same day at IBD, based on the same series of facts.

Kinda like selling weapons to known terrorists?  Be careful, don't throw stones when you live in a glass house. ;)

But as far as the "threat" goes, sure, if they get within 1200 miles or the continental US with those missiles, then sure, we might want to worry.
 
Per Swenson said:
Maybe so.

Corruption is another human trait that needed to be added to the mix.

But the root of all conflict is Blood and Treasure.

Come on, it's a desert, what could possibly be of value in a Desert?

Being a American I grew up believing in a certain super hero.

His motto was Truth, Justice, and The American way.

I really believed the truth and justice part. Now? Not so much.

Update.... I see the link doesn't work.
so a excerpt.

Basheer K. Nijim1
(1) Dept. of Geography, University of Northern Iowa, 50614-0406 Cedar Falls, IA, USA

Abstract  The quest for water resources by Zionist leaders started in the early years of the Zionist movement. Attempts were made to delimit Palestine according to rivers and headwaters. This quest has been independent of the political status of the territory of Palestine. The quest was intense in the early 1950s during the Johnston negotiations, and it became especially crucial after the 1967 occupation by Israel of the rest of Palestine, the West Bank. Lebanon's Litani river has been included in Israeli considerations, as well as the Jordan river's tributary the Yarmuk river. The Kingdom of Jordan's development plans for the latter may be compromised. Control of underground water resources in the West Bank is deemed essential to Israel, given their importance to the ground supply of pre-1967 Israel. Israel is unlikely to relinquish control of the water resources of the West Bank in the ev

Per

"Shawwa, the olive grower, offers a different explanation for the razing of his grove: "Water, water, water." This theory, he suggests, explains why the Israelis attacked his well in addition to his trees.

He and a cousin argue that the Israelis want to destroy Palestinian agriculture in order to reduce water consumption, leaving more in the ground for Israel.

Across the road from his grove, Shawwa's uncle Salah, a retired grower, stands in his front yard and supervises the construction of a new fence. Israeli forces used his property and to create a checkpoint along the road.

A small, gray-haired man with a few missing teeth, he also mourns for his garden. "They uprooted all of my trees... olive, tangerine, lemon, grapefruit, pomelo. I was keeping all the old citrus of Palestine," he explains."

Israelis withdraw from direct occupation of Gaza but.
 
b_m_hart said:
But as far as the "threat" goes, sure, if they get within 1200 miles or the continental US with those missiles, then sure, we might want to worry.

Are you serious? We can't keep boatloads of Cubans off of our shore from 90 miles out. How the heck are we to patrol the entire coasts to 1200-1500 miles out in all directions?
 
Michael Kellough said:
"Shawwa, the olive grower, offers a different explanation for the razing of his grove: "Water, water, water." This theory, he suggests, explains why the Israelis attacked his well in addition to his trees.

He and a cousin argue that the Israelis want to destroy Palestinian agriculture in order to reduce water consumption, leaving more in the ground for Israel.

Do you buy that story as the reason Israel built the security fence Michael?
 
Per Swenson said:
But it seems to me with out truth and justice the real casualties are those

that blindly believe what they are told and go quietly down the garden path.

Per

Thanks for bringing the discussion back to my OP in the thread. These elitist snobs at The New York Times are no longer going to get away with these idiotic reports and put us hardworking Americans into jeopardy. ;D
 
Woodenfish said:
b_m_hart said:
But as far as the "threat" goes, sure, if they get within 1200 miles or the continental US with those missiles, then sure, we might want to worry.

Are you serious? We can't keep boatloads of Cubans off of our shore from 90 miles out. How the heck are we to patrol the entire coasts to 1200-1500 miles out in all directions?

The ships required to move and launch missiles are a little bit bigger (and substantially easier to track) than a dingy or two that can carry a handful of refugees.  Still, the point remains - wouldn't it would be better to be in a situation where there wasn't a threat of missiles being launched at us.

The US has done a HORRIBLE PR job in the muslim world.  What "ammo" that we had (stopping the slaughter of muslims in the serb - croat conflict back in the 90s, stepping in to stop genocide in Somalia) has been expended, and then some, due to our activities in Iraq.  These people are a threat directly because of the US own actions, and we're not doing anything but to continue to stir up a hornets nest.

To expand on my post earlier, it's kind of like wondering why your neighbor is mad at you after you killed his dog.  We feel justified for killing the dog because it took a crap on our lawn, and now we'll feel justified in killing him because he's upset that we killed his dog?  Maybe we should consider our actions, and look inward regarding the next course of action.  I'm just saying that maybe if most people took certain things (such as the greater picture) into consideration, they'd possibly re-think their stance on how we handle Iran.

I'd rather treat the root cause than look for a work around to treat the symptom.  The lure of peace and prosperity is more powerful than any weapon or army.  Doubt that?  Look at the former Soviet Union.

 
Remember that US Submarine full of dignitaries that breached the surface and took out a 191 foot Japanese fishing boat a couple of years ago? Your giving sea-based technology way too much hope.

I'll also take issue with some of your statements,

"The US has done a HORRIBLE PR job in the muslim world."

What kidnappings, be-headings, homicide bombings, rocket and mortar attacks, religious genocide and threatening to destroy two independent democracies are more acceptable forms of PR? Clinton's war in Bosnia was pre-9/11 and against the christians in support of the muslims. What god did that do us? Is BHO demanding we withdraw from Bosnia? I don't think so?

"The lure of peace and prosperity is more powerful than any weapon or army.  Doubt that?  Look at the former Soviet Union."

The Soviets were not lured into peace, it was forced upon them by Ronald Reagan. Where is the self-promotion of peace and prosperity in the radical Muslim world?

Israel, the only democracy in the Middle East region is slightly smaller than the state of New Jersey. It is surrounded by 22 hostile Islamic dictators from an area 640 times their size. Who's the threat?

 
Woodenfish said:
Remember that US Submarine full of dignitaries that breached the surface and took out a 191 foot Japanese fishing boat a couple of years ago? Your giving sea-based technology too way much hope.

I'll also take issue with some of your statements,

"The US has done a HORRIBLE PR job in the muslim world."

What kidnappings, be-headings, homicide bombings, rocket and mortar attacks, religious genocide and threatening to destroy two independent democracies are more acceptable forms of PR? Clinton's war in Bosnia was pre-9/11 and against the christians in support of the muslims. What god did that do us? Is BHO demanding we withdraw from Bosnia? I don't think so?

"The lure of peace and prosperity is more powerful than any weapon or army.  Doubt that?  Look at the former Soviet Union."

The Soviets were not lured into peace, it was forced upon them by Ronald Reagan. Where is the self-promotion of peace and prosperity in the radical Muslim world?

Israel, the only democracy in the Middle East region is slightly smaller than the state of New Jersey. It is surrounded by 22 hostile Islamic dictators from an area 640 times their size. Who's the threat?

That view of the situation could us a step back (or two) in my estimation.  The US has propped up dictatorships in the middle east for more than a half a century.  The outcome has been a radicalization of the populace, obviously not in a manner that is good for the US.

Relative to the Reagan comment - I'll take a different stance.  I'll put it to you that the cold war was effectively over the second that they realized that Kennedy would, in fact, push the button if they tried to launch missiles from Cuba.  US technology was superior, we owned the oceans (the stories of what US subs did during that era are amazing, by the way).  That left them in a race to win in space - but it ultimately proved too expensive, and their system collapsed in on itself.  Fortunately for us, our financial system was in better condition, and we were able to withstand the extra four trillion dollars in debt.

Yes, Israel should exist.  I don't disagree there at all.  I do disagree that the threat isn't Israel - they're basically our military proxy in the middle east.  That's a very big contributor to the animosity (well, that the manner in which they've annexed land, and the inter-faith issues).

Two points:

1) I love a good argument - so please don't take this as any sort of political attack or other such nonsense, because it's not.
2) Being argumentative for the sake of being argumentative is kinda fun at times, but I don't know that I want to contribute to a major devolving of the decorum around here...
 
some of you are missing the point VERY BADLY

ordinary human beings (even arabs) do not SUDDENLY start around kidnapping torturing beheading and all for no reason

these terrible things are the result NOT the precursor

terrorists are created...............  how?    the answer is very simple

YOU dis enfranchise them

YOU take their jobs away so they cant feed their kids (all the wives are suddenly radicals as well)

YOU put their political leaders into prison on false charges or better................

YOU imprison them without charge

YOU throw them off their land

YOU build on their land

YOU put fences round the new buildings and say the land is yours

(the protestants in northern ireland did this to the catholics) the IRA was born

(the white south africans did this to the black south africans) the ANC was born

israel have been CREATING palestinian terrorists for more than 40 years and continue to do so, a plague on the house of israel

who has backed israel for 40 years?  a plague on our house for backing the israelies

   

now you know why arab terrorists are bombing america, britian, germany, spain etc
 
There you have it.

Thanks DD for putting it simply.

And I thought they hated us for our Freedoms. :'(

Per
 
Truth to tell, I'd much rather discuss Festools with you guys than listen to your political rants.  ;)

A thread like this one (has turned into) actually accomplishes very little in terms of persuasion or changing minds.

In our "post-modern" world, neither logic nor facts count for anything.  Subjective reality is the equivalent of objective reality.  Except when you drop a 2x4 on your foot, you still feel it, whether you believe in 2x4's or not. 

And when we get attacked again on our soil (which frankly we aren't used to) some may finally acknowledge that the threat is real (at least until another 5 years goes by, during which the threat will appear less and less real).  Maybe then we can have this conversation and it will be less about blame and more about action.

Meantime, let's talk Festools.

:o :o
 
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