Miter Saw Shopping - Looking for some advice...

[jimmylittle]

I am a Festool nut.  I admit it.  I have accumulated a ton of green and black in the last few years, and have a serious Systainer problem.

Now, it's time to replace an aging miter saw.  I've been doing some research, and I'm on the fence.

Of course I want to buy a Kapex, but it seems a bit expensive even for Festool.  

I'm comparing it to the Bosch 4310, the DeWalt DW717, and the Makita LS0116L.  I love the Bosch, but it is too big and heavy to move around.  The DeWalt is smaller and lighter, and has 60º bevel, where the Kapex stops at 50º.  I'm leaning towards the Makita, though.  I'm replacing a Makita that's about 8 years old and loved it.  The Makita is only 4 pounds heaver than the Kapex (and 20 pounds LIGHTER than the Bosch).  It has larger capacity and wider miter range than the Kapex and is not much bigger.  It uses a Dual-Slide system so it can sit closer to the wall than most other saws, but further than the front-rail Kapex.  It's also $490US instead of $1375US.

Those things make me lean towards the Makita.  Cons to the Makita are dust collection is probably not as good, it's not green and black [tongue], and not much else.  

Any one out there have any thoughts?  Have you used the Makita Dual Slide saws at all?

thanks!

 

[Holzhacker]

There was a post recently about the Makita. Can't remember if it was here or else where. From what I remembered it whined about the DC.
I have the older version of that Bosch. Love that chop saw. Great to use, good accuracy, horrible DC. For a shop its great. For jobsites it is a back breaker. My Bosch just sits in the corner since I got a Kapex. If you are using this mostly stationary I'd go for the Bosch.
For jobsite work the Kapex is worth it in terms of mobility and ease of use. Being able to roll it into a job on the cart along with the wings is awesome. I can't imagine trading that luxury for anything else. The Kapex cart is worth it. The wings are probably worth it now with the price drop. The wings are very nice to have but I can't recommend them without reservation. The wings work well but realistically should be a bit wider. Hopefully festool with redesign them at some point a bit wider.

 

[Kev]

I went with the KAPEX+UG & extensions as it's light, accurate, clean, easy to deploy and put away ... and it's Festool.

If you're having trouble deciding, make up a score sheet and rate the factors influencing your choice.

If the only issue is price in the end, consider the price difference over the life of the saw - made it a real easy decision for me [wink]

 

[NYC Tiny Shop]

I use the Kapex with 36mm anti-static hose, Forrest blades, Fastcap wings.

 

[DavidW]

By your own admission, you are a Festool Nut [smile], my thinking is that always be wondering if you should have got the Kapex if you buy any thing else.
David

 

[RKA]

I've had the Makita, but I can't give you much feedback on it other than the dust collection is on par with most other miter saws on the market.  I quickly found the limited capacity cutting against the fence was a problem and went to a DW780 (the 717 is quite good in this respect as well).  I found the dust collection pretty good on the 780.  Not festool good, but 70-80% (by my rough estimates) was contained.  But the little boot behind the blade articulated forward and aft with the blade, not up and down, so maybe that's where the dust gets airborne.  The 717 is a little different in that it seems to articulate with the blade, but the boot itself is a bit small.  In practice, I'm not sure how the 717 shakes out.  The 780 had the typical beveling mechanism found on most other miter saws.  With the heavy-ish head (still a lightweight among 12" saws), I found this crude.  You do have fixed stops at 45 and 22.5, but still.  Ultimately this is the primary feature that drove me to Festool and I love it.  But I've been unable to choose between them (yet).  Being able to cut tall material against the fence is something I'm used to (and can't seem to shake).  Despite Festool's nice beveling mechanism, it trades off that vertical capacity for portability.  And, of course, you have more resolution on the miter scale vs. the bevel, which favors cutting the stock against the fence if you want that extra degree of precision. 

Aside from that, there are intangibles that I find favor the festool.  The saw head is relatively light and the vertical orientation of your hand encourages good form when using the saw.  The head of the saw feels like it moves with the precision of a scalpel, where I find I need to be more mindful with another saw to get consistent cuts.  The 780 in particular has very small diameter slides which makes the sliding mechanism a bit twitchy compared to the festool or the makita.  I don't remember the 717 having this same issue.  I was hoping a trial period with the Kapex would settle all the indecision before the purchase.  Instead it confirmed all my doubts.  There is no clear answer in my mind.  Like so many other decisions, it depends on what you want to do with the tool and what other tools you might have in the shop/van to compliment it. 

Sorry for the drivel, I'm thinking about my own situation while I'm trying to address your question.

 

[CoStruct]

I am trying to make the same decision.  If any of the saws had micro-mitre adjustment as well as micro-bevel adjustment, I would purchase that one for sure.  As it is, have the Bosch GSM12SD which I am quite happy with but want a second saw with a 10" blade (decrease deflection) and more fine adjustments.  Tough call.

 

[Birdhunter]

I owned a perfectly good Makita and now have a Kapex. It was a tough decision.

The final decision point was the last time I had to drag the Makita outside to make some cuts. It simply created too much of a mess to use inside.

I bought the Kapex for its dust collection and the fact that I could back it up against a wall. The bonus for me was its extreme accuracy and ease of use.

It is coupled to a dedicated Festool vac with the larger (35mm) hose. I'd estimate the dust collection to be in the 90% to 95% range.

I did buy the UG stand although I don't move the Kapex much. It is far more stable than I had expected.

 

[tjbier]

I have  a makita ls1013 and I like it better than the current 4 rail version, my boss has one and im not all that fond of it.
I personally dont like felling the top rails engage as you are pushing it through the cut, you do feel it.
the thing I hate about both saws is having to reach to the back of the saw to bevel it, hate it . Lol
my next saw will have top control bevel (festool, Milwaukee) or front controls (bosch).
The good with his 4 rail mak is that it cut square,  has lasers , tall fence, good capacity.
The bad, my 14 yr old saw is smoother, rear bevel, has horizontal handle/trigger. I personally like the vertical style.

 

[donwon]

I had a hitachi sliding saw which I thought was good. Then I bought the Bosch. Had to modify it to help improve the dust collection. It looks similar to what the kapex uses with a piece of rubber behind the blade. I thought this saw was great. Good cuts and with the modification seemed ok on dust. However my shop would get fine dust over it as time would go on.

I decided it was time to by the kapex. Everything I read seemed good and with the 30 day return policy, no risk. Also the big scale for bevels seemed like a great idea.

I have to say I was amazed. The dust collection is amazing for a mitre saw.  Only big pieces are left and they are on the saw and not through out the shop. Easy clean up. I can feel the difference with slide on the kapex and the cuts are great. I have no regrets and it saves my back. Even moving it in the shop.

Hands down I would recommend it. If you need a 12" saw then it will not work though. Good luck!

 

[Guilliaume woodworks]

I bought the makita ls 10" saw and really like it a lot. I've read many comments on fog about how people didn't like it. Haven't had any issues with head movement or always getting out of square. And the stock makita blade is outstanding . I've either had or regularly used most SMS 's on the market(except kapex) and would absolutely recommend the 10" SMS makita.  It's also the smoothest sliding saw I've had. If it's not on level ground (like driveway) it tends to slide on its own. You don't feel second set of rails in mid cut as an earlier post described , something was wrong with that saw if that's the case. I constantly see guys with a SMS tipped on its side wedged in corner with ladders or material thrown on top in the bed of their truck. And then they wonder why it won't cut square.

 

[jimmylittle]

Thanks for all the advice.  After reading the FOG and looking at video reviews on YouTube, I ordered my Kapex.  It will be here Monday.  My two big shopping points were space behind the saw (narrow shop), and dust collection (on site a lot).

My second choice, the Makita, had some pretty middling reviews regarding the slop in the 4-slider cascading system.  After further research, I was also considering the Bosch GCM12 Axial Glide system, but dust collection is terrible and it only comes in an 85 pound 12" version. 

So, Kapex it is.  It cost a big chunk of the profits from an upcoming job, but then it's paid for and I'll have it for a good long time.

As the old saying goes, you can cry once when you buy a good tool, or cry every time you use a cheap one. [cool]

 

[fin]

ive had a bit of an accident with my dewalt dw701. briefly i was about to change the blade. pulled the trigger and it was turned on still. blade span up. my mate shouted for me so i looked and at the same time pressed the lock button in. the blade stopped dead. the lock button jammed in and a piece of the casting inside has broken. so now ive stripped it down and removed the lock button and the saw spins fine. but i cant refit the lock button due to the missing parts of the internal casting.

aside from this, the dw701 was becoming a pain to use. theres a small adjusting screw inside made of plastic. if its tightened for no play in the saw head its difficult to slide. if i free it so it slides i get play. i cant win. the saws also been taken apart more times than i care to remember for this adjustment.

its never been the most accurate saw. and its small capacity causes bother if im fitting handrails as blade retaining nut can catch on certain handrail mouldings. also it only bevels 1 way.

my friend owns a makita ls1013 which is a very nice saw to use but he has now had problems with that. i was thinking about the kapex but they are like £1000 which is pretty expensive compared to other makes.

i also have a dewalt stand. anyone know if the kapex would fit onto this?  the dw7023

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/NEW-DEWALT-DWX723-UNIVERSAL-MITER-SAW-LEG-STAND-KIT-FOR-MITER-SAWS-SALE-PRICE-/310844259136?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item485fc2fb40

 

[fin]

also a couple extra questions please..

whats the differences between the kapex 88 and the 120? they look pretty much identical in pictures.

and do they come with that angle finder device? or is that seperate?

and finally ive seen a few people with short hoses direct from their mitre saw to their vac. i have a midi vac. do you guys use a festool hose shortened? or any kinda hose and fit festool ends to it?

 

[jonny round boy]

also a couple extra questions please..

whats the differences between the kapex 88 and the 120? they look pretty much identical in pictures.

and do they come with that angle finder device? or is that seperate?

and finally ive seen a few people with short hoses direct from their mitre saw to their vac. i have a midi vac. do you guys use a festool hose shortened? or any kinda hose and fit festool ends to it?

The KS88 is basically a stripped-down version of the KS120. It doesn't have the micro bevel adjustment, the lasers, or the angle finder (the angle finder comes as standard with the 120).

The dust extraction on the Kapex can be improved by using the 36mm hose instead of the 27mm hose that comes with the midi vac. Also, a shorter length helps. So a shorter 36mm hose is the best of both worlds.

Hope that helps.

Jonathan

 

[Bigchasbroon]

I had a makita ls1012 or 13 I can't remember. I had it 12 years and it was a great machine but the fence was a little fragile I broke it twice cutting hardwood, not paying attention and holding it properly, it chattered and broke the fence. I now have a dw717xps the fences are much more robust and this was one of the main things I looked at. I'm happy with the dewalt and would choose it over makita but if I had the extra cash I'd go for the festool. I've never regretted buying festool.

 

[jimmylittle]

My Kapex will be at my shop tomorrow!  Can't wait to play with it.

But, as I do, I'm already planning ahead.  I have a small shop in Brooklyn and work a lot around Brooklyn and Manhattan.  I usually travel my stuff in a small van, and now that I'm mostly Festool, and even non-Festool stuff is in Systainers, things are much easier. 

That being said, has anyone out there built a case for their Kapex?  I have a smaller Makita 7-½" SMS that I've built a basic plywood box for, and I'm looking to do the same for the Kapex.  Things stack better when they're square!

 

[peter halle]

I have started a case but never finished it.  It would be a big case.  If I were to do it again - or finish it - I would look at whether 2 systainers wide would be an appropriate size in that dimension.

Peter

 

[NYC Tiny Shop]

Jimmy, I think that if I planned to use the Kapex, and transport it regularly in a van,  that I might consider keeping it on the UG stand and using something like mover's belts to fasten it to the inside wall of the van.  If I was dead set on making a box for it,  then it would be something like a large wooden "hat box" with clasps fastening the sides to the base. Hope this helps. BTW, congrats on the new saw.

 

[Benjamin]

this is a great saying and sooo true when it comes to the Kapex.

"As the old saying goes, you can cry once when you buy a good tool, or cry every time you use a cheap one."

buy the Kapex as you won't be disappointed. just the dust extraction and weight of the saw alone is worth it. As every single time I use the saw I say to
my self " god dam this is a good saw " and is one of my most used festool tools .

the bosch and other similar saws weigh around 20lbs more then the kapex, and this doesn't seem like much but its truly a huge difference if you have to move it
around consistently for on site work.