My Festool woodshop/garage project

[sgryd]

Hi.
It's about time I'll introduce myself before asking more questions..
- I've have been at the forum (mostly lurking) for some three years.
- Programmer (financial systems)
- Woodworking as a hobby
- Wife, two kids
- Festoolie (MFT, TS55, OF1010, Kapex, TDK12, EHL65, RO125, CT22..)

For this post I tried the gallery function. It was not possible to select other than predefined categories for the image, so I sort'a hijacked Mathew's category. I'm sorry if I've done something terribly wrong here..

I'm building a garage. Most is done but the inside. I'm only allowed to build 40 square meters (430 square feet). Half of this will be my woodshop. The other half is sized to fit a car, but it will NOT be hosting a car. Instead the other half will be for bicycles and training.

To be able to utilize a bigger area than just the woodshop I'll make 2/4 of the middle wall as sliding doors.

On to the question:
I'd like to connect three MFTs as in the image. This will give me the area I need for cutting sheet goods. To sage space I'd like to have one of the MFT a MFT800. I'd have to put something in the empty corner as support when I cut sheets of course.

Q1: Is it possible to connect MFTs like this? I.e. I need some kind of angled connector..

Q2: Any comments on the setup is very welcome. I have never had a woodshop, so I will probably make thousands of design mistakes.

Thanks
//Michael

 

[sgryd]

Oh.. and another question..

Would it make sense to put a router in the MFT800? Or is it preferable to use a separate router table for this?

Thanks again.
//Michael

 

[Jesse Cloud]

Hi Michael,
Great post!  I'm sure many more expert than me will contribute better ideas, but here are a few thoughts....

I like your setup.  It promotes a good work flow from the entry door to the kapex to the jointer and then either to the tablesaw or the MFT's.  I hope you will have dust control for the jointer and table saw, for your health.  Since they are close together it should be easy to do.  Will you have a workbench?  Or is the MFT setup your bench?  The reason I ask is that many (including me) here feel the MFT is a little flimsy for handtool work such as planing or sawing.  If you wish to use the MFTs for this, I would encourage you to build a structure to support them and not use the folding legs.  There have been a few threads on the forum showing how to do this.

The other concern with combing 3 mfts is getting them level.  I don't know about your structure, but my garage isn't even close to level.  Another good reason to build your own base for the MFTs.

Hope you will keep posting and show us your progress!

 

[Jerry Work]

Hi Michael,

A couple of suggestions for mounting three MFTs "T" bone style as shown in your post.  As Jesse indicated, the issue is to get the tops level and let the legs go wherever they want to.  Do that by machining a piece of wood slightly thinner than the distance from the top of the aluminum side extrusion to the top of your tables.  Drill 8mm beveled mounting holes about every 300mm or so to receive a proper length 8mm flat head machine screw.  Slide 8mm nuts into the top "T" track and mount your piece of wood so it spans all three of your tables along the side closest to the car in your drawing.  As you tighten the machine screws the tops of the tables will come into level along that edge and the tables will be held rigidly to one another.  Now use table joining units or the same wood idea to bring the two tables into level on the side away from the car.  Slide a table joining unit or other suitably sized piece into the side "T" track on the one odd table until in projects into the track on the side of the table it "T" bones into.  That will bring those two table tops to even at that point.  Clamp or bolt these two tables together to form a rigid unit with the tops properly aligned.  Now look at where the legs hit the floor.  Use shims or the adjusters to bring them all into good contact and you will have a very useful and stable table sized and shaped for your location.

Another "trick" I use here frequently for quick and dirty table joining where I need the tops aligned is to cut a spline 8.6mm thick and wide enough to fit between the bottoms of the side "T" tracks on two adjoining tables and about the length of the sides I want to join.  The opening in the "T" tracks on these tables averages around 8.7mm wide so the spline will be a good snug fit.  When you place that spline into the side "T" tracks on two tables the tops will quickly align.  A clamp or bolt through the aluminum side extrusions will hold the two together rigidly without altering any of the table functions.  I now find a multiple MFT set up more efficient and flexible than the large MFT I described building in my MFT manual posted on the Festool web site.  I have five MFTs in daily use here now.

I am currently building a very large and unusual dining table that requires all five to be in constant use.  The dining table has to seat up to 12, yet fold up and fit into two narrow wall units that look like break fronts.  The new home has lots of craftsman style touches and is generous in size, but a full time table that large would overwhelm the great room space available.  My design calls for Australian Silky Oak tops, drawers and panels with Oregon Black Oak rails, stiles and main trestles pieces.  The table tops are done in four pieces, each about 60" long and 22" wide.  Two of these hinge in the middle with hidden "Soss" hinges to create two 44" x 60" sections.  The tops appear to be 40mm thick but if solid would be way to heavy for two people to lift out of the storage space and onto the base units.  Instead they are 20mm thick with a 20mm x 40mm edge banding.  Across the wide grain direction the edge bands are wide grain cut from the same boards so they will expand and contract at the same rate as the top pieces.  About every 300mm across the bottoms are 30mm dovetailed stringers set across the grain in sliding dovetail slots with 10mm deep dovetails.  These keep the tops from ever cupping or bowing yet keep the weight to a (barely) tolerable level.  Handling those big assemblies and cutting the long sliding dovetail slots requires lots of level table surface area.  Three MFTs spaced apart using the same technique described does the trick nicely.  The other two MFTs serve to hold the tops of the two wall units so the sliding dovetail stringers can be placed in them to hold them flat forever as well.  The final components are two top display shelf units which must be constructed perfectly flat on the bottom so when they sit upon the tops of the wall units they will stand straight.  Two MFTs assembled together with aligned tops does the trick.

Hope this helps.

Jerry

 

[Matthew Schenker]

Michael,
I just created a folder for you in the Gallery section, so you now have your own place to post photos.  This should make it easier for you!

By the way, if anyone wants a folder in the Gallery, please just send me an IM and I'll create it for you.

Also, I just created a new Gallery folder called "Common Gallery."  If you don't yet have your own folder and you want to post right away, just put your photos in "Common" and I'll create a folder for you after that.

OK, carry on!

Stay in touch,
Matthew Schenker

 

[sgryd]

Thanks all!
I just realized that I put the wrong name on the saw. The "tablesaw" box should be "bandsaw".

Thank's for your idéas on leveling the MFTs, Jerry. Now when I know it's possible, I'll go ahead and buy another MFT (I currently have only one).

About dust controll:
The MFT will have my CT22 with boom arm as dedicated dust controll.
The Kapex will have a CT of it's own in the future, but will have to part with the MFT's CT22 to start with.
The future CT for the Kapex will do double duty as a shop cleaner.

I suspect that the bandsaw and the Jointer cannot be dust controlled with a CT, correct? I'll probably have to use a cyclone or such for these two machines. I'm hoping to be able to put the cyclone outsine of the shop with the filter inside to let the air flow back into the shop (we have cold winters in Sweden).

I've prepared an outlet near the sealing so I can mount an air cleaner up there. My vision is a near dustfree environment. This is extra important because my older son has astmatic tendencies. I'd hate if my shop dust would make him worse. I've found a company which have air cleaners for sealing mount, such as this:

Here is a brochure of some floor models Air cleaner

//Michael

 

[sgryd]

When I think about it, I have plenty of space under my MFT's. I could probably fit in an A1700 (se above brochure) without it taking up any used space in the shop. Does anyone have experience with these kind of machines?

*edit*
After speaking to a salesman I realise that I should have a sealing hung model. With a floor model I'm risking the machine to push the dust around as it comes down through the holes in the MFT. He also told me that I won't be needing the HEPA versions of the machines since my machine will sit in a closed environment and has chance to clean the air multiple times. The HEPA versions are needed if they stand in a doorway and only have one shot for cleaning the air before letting the air out in another room.
*edit*

//MIchael

 

[Dave Rudy]

I realise that I should have a sealing hung model.

Michael,

I use a ceiling mounted JDS air cleaner.  It works well at two things -- cleaning the air and moving the heat which rises to the top of the shop around so that the heater doesnt have to work as hard in winter.

Many models come with timers and I have read advice that the best time to run the air cleaner is after you leave the shop.  That way, you don't compound the dust problem while working and the shop is clean when you return.  I have used it during work (I did not buy the timer model although it could be wired in the wall switch) and combined with Festools and good dust collection, doesnt seem to be a problem.

Dave

 

[Phil B]

I don't know exactly what you intend to build in the shop; if it's furniture and stuff it's going to be pretty tight.  If at all possible try and claim a little more room from the car area.

Pay particular attention to the full dynamic space requirements of machines.  Design it such that infeed / outfeed areas overlap to maximize truly "free" areas.  This is going to be hard to do, draw the typical areas as dotted lines on your drawing to try and arrive at the optimal placement.  In reality, THIS is what should be driving the placement in the shop.

As someone else mentioned, a more stable workbench is going to be handy.

You may not have enough free area around the tablesaw depending upon how you intend to use it.

For such a small shop you are "saw heavy" you have the 2-3 MFT's (assuming you use it that way), a tablesaw, and a cross cut saw(kapex).  One of these should surely be omitted to gain space, I would loose the kapex and have only one MFT.  I would then consider adding a bandsaw depending upon need since it adds capability not currently drawn.

Given the above, I would consider building a study bench in the same position as the kapex in your drawing.  I would try and locate a single MFT about where the jointer is next to the door, small side facing the wall.

The drill could go across the room from it and you may be able to make space around it for the small items like the tormek.

Try and locate less used items outside the shop, surely for the time you actually need it, the tormek could be stored in the other room on a shelf.  In such a small shop you do not want to have anything in it that is used infrequently.

Put everything you can on a mobile base, use French cleats to hang things from the wall.  This will allow you to re-configure the shop and try different arraignments.

Try and put the router table in the tablesaw or perhaps an insert you could drop into the MFT frame so as to dowble-utilize space.

PMBhttp://benchmark.20m.com

 

[Lou Miller]

Phil,

How's the construction of your shop coming along?

 

[sgryd]

Thanks Phil!
I'll try to redraw a bit and move the MFT and drill.

The "tablesaw" actually is a bandsaw. I picked the wrong word... hey, bandsaws also has tables =)

French cleats will go all around the room. I was thinking three levels of cleaths so I can put things both high and low.

Wheel bases will go on every tool that can take wheels.

I'm a machine kind of guy, so I don't feel the need for a sturdy bench. No handplaning.. I do see the MFT as a very versatile workbench, and I'd love some more MFT area.

About what to build.. Well.. I mostly build buildings (thats why I won't get rid of the Kapex - I love it). But I can't wait untill I have the shop and the time to learn more about building furnitures.

I'll post back when I've had some rounds with the drawing.

//Michael

 

[Phil B]

How's the construction of your shop coming along?

Slow, lots of yard, motorcycle – truck repair work taking precedence over it.  I do have nearly all the machines in and running, I can actually do some work in there now.  Lights, air, & DC hookup are the large remaining items.  See

ics/

PMBhttp://benchmark.20m.com

 

[Lou Miller]

That's a great looking space Phil. I'm envious...

Looks empty though, gotta fill it up

 

[woodshopdemos]

Phil,
   I have been holding out because I didn't quite know how to address the subject tactfully. SO here goes...where does it say that a car should have any space in a garage. Isn't it sufficient to use cars as a way of specifying the workshop space, ex. "I am using a 2 car garage..." That in no way means that you would shuffle such an object in there. Cars are made of steel and carefully painted to withstand the weather. Woodworkers are not. Festool tools, while elegant, are made for storage in a large workshop, typically the size of a 2-car garage. Note, that it no way implies that the unit of measurement (car) is placed in the space. You have a car with 150 horsepower...do you have 150 horses reined. No.  Now design a 2-car workshop.
John Lucas
www.woodshopdemos.com

 

[clintholeman]

If you need more room, you can adios the TS.  With 2 1080's it will just take up space - or would in my shop.  Also, I agree with John - you can asios the car as well.  Try bikes - they are WAY more greem [always a good thing for a woodworker], they cost lots of $$ with which you could buy more FesTools.  Looks like a win - win from here. ;D

Although you might get a horse as well, just to spell your steel steeds.

 

[mysterium]

John Lucas said "I have been holding out because I didn't quite know how to address the subject tactfully. SO here goes...where does it say that a car should have any space in a garage."

I put it this way......  It's Grandma's fault......

"Back when...." our Grandfathers sold Grandma on this new idea called a "horseless carriage" that came with an enamel paint to protect it from the elements that Henry Ford said "you could have in any color.... as long as it was black..."  Along with the sales pitch for the car Grandpa convinced her that it needed a garage to house it  "like the horses needed a barn.....".  Grandpa never intended on putting the car in there...  he was really looking to get a shop.  Every thing went along fine until WWII....  then Grandma aka "Ros? the riveter"  moved the car into the shop while Grandpa was over seas....  Thus we have been fighting to get the garage .... er ah I mean "shop" back and the car to it rightful in the driveway.
 

Blame it on Grandma!!!

jim

 

[sgryd]

Thank you.
I fully agree about the car (read my first post =)

The other half is sized to fit a car, but it will NOT be hosting a car. Instead the other half will be for bicycles and training.

//Michael

 

[woodshopdemos]

John Lucas said "I have been holding out because I didn't quite know how to address the subject tactfully. SO here goes...where does it say that a car should have any space in a garage."

I put it this way......  It's Grandma's fault......

"Back when...." our Grandfathers sold Grandma on this new idea called a "horseless carriage" that came with an enamel paint to protect it from the elements that Henry Ford said "you could have in any color.... as long as it was black..."  Along with the sales pitch for the car Grandpa convinced her that it needed a garage to house it  "like the horses needed a barn.....".  Grandpa never intended on putting the car in there...  he was really looking to get a shop.   Every thing went along fine until WWII....  then Grandma aka "Ros? the riveter"  moved the car into the shop while Grandpa was over seas....  Thus we have been fighting to get the garage .... er ah I mean "shop" back and the car to it rightful in the driveway.
 

Blame it on Grandma!!!

jim

Jim,
  That brings up a story that hurts to tell. My aging grandmother (Cucamonga CA) was approached by a migrant worker  for any work for food. She took pity and gave the man some chores to do. He did them well so she kept on creating things to do. One day he came back from neatening up a garage that my grandfather used for his horse, a shop and a car ... in this case a 1927 LaSalle. a true beauty and had been driven on Sundays only.  that I and my cousins all had our eye on...but not until she passed on. The worker commented on the "old car under the tarp." She said, "Oh that...would you like it?" and traded it for that weeks work. In trade probably for $25 worth of work went a true classic that was worth thousands.  Thankfully on was on the east coast, but west coast cousins were ready  to advance their grandmothers passing.

 

[mysterium]

"In trade probably for $25 worth of work went a true classic that was worth thousands."

Ouch!!!!

John, unfortunately that's "one of those stories" you hear about...  The Antiques Road Show seems to be full of "I bought it for a $1...."  For me it's not so much how much it's worth but "who" it was from....  I have a few things from my Grandparents not worth much in $$$ but carry high value because it's a remaining "link" to their memory.

Some of these "tool gloats" posted on various forums are a little hard to take when the bottom line is the guy is taking great pride in screwing someone....

jim

 

[greg mann]

"In trade probably for $25 worth of work went a true classic that was worth thousands."

Ouch!!!!

Some of these "tool gloats" posted on various forums are a little hard to take when the bottom line is the guy is taking great pride in screwing someone....

jim

Jim,

You hit on something that has bothered me for a long time. It is one of the reasons I hardly frequent any other forum these days. Every time someone brags about picking up an xxxxtool for a song all I can think about is some poor unsuspecting widow that had no clue. There is always some clown who will say it is her 'fault' for not doing her homework but that ignores the fact that many elderly folks have no way of keeping up with 'market value' issues. Are there any of us who would have thought that 60's era muscle cars would be worth what they are today, much less some dear departed husband's Unisaw?