new compact Sawstop

[Vanhalo]

Safety technology such as SS introduced should be universal and having it protected by patent seems to me to be a a some what back handed form of blackmail, if you want it you have to pay me the inventor what I want. I think every saw should have this type of technology but the business ethics of the inventor left a bad taste in the mouth for a lot pf people. Safety belts and air bags are not patent protected as an example and I wonder if personal primary safety devices such as this should be allowed to be patented. Just my view and I don't want to start any SS v's the rest argument because for me it all comes down to business ethics.

It isn’t ethical to expect the company who invented a product to share profits with everyone else who did not invest in their own R & D. I think protected patents should last longer than 10 years. It’s their private property. Their labor who created it.

 

[ChuckM]

Anyone who thinks that the Covid19 vaccines would still have been developed in the west if the pharmaceutical companies concerned had been told that their product development efforts would be shared for free -- in the name of public heath & safety, please raise your hand.

The last time I heard, SawStop wasn't founded as a charity organization.

 

[Sparktrician]

There's some interesting reading on the Sawstop patents' expiration dates.  I'm far more impressed by the Bosch REAXX mechanism and the fact that no blades or other expensive mechanisms need to be replaced.  Only the cartridge needs to be replaced.  The REAXX cartridge blows the blade below the saw deck in a short instant, negating the need to stop the blade's spinning in as brief a time. 

 

[mino]

...
Attempting to mandate a legitimate safety device on a saw was a bad move ..
...

I would not be so sure it was a bad idea. Not necessarily.

I believe that the moment such a device were to become mandatory /at least/ in the US, the SS relevant patent owner(s) would be forced to license on FRAND terms. If not the specific SS tech, then at minimum the Bosch alternte approach would have to be allowed under FRAND for sure.

 

[ChuckM]

I, too, definitely prefer Bosch's non-destructive approach, although my PCS has never caused an activation. I expect the Reaxx to be the first one out of the gate (with the cellphone interference issue sorted out already) as soon as the relevant patents expire, at least for the jobsite segment.

 

[Cheese]

I'm far more impressed by the Bosch REAXX mechanism and the fact that no blades or other expensive mechanisms need to be replaced.  Only the cartridge needs to be replaced.  The REAXX cartridge blows the blade below the saw deck in a short instant, negating the need to stop the blade's spinning in as brief a time.

I'm with Willy on this one...Initially I was a big fan of what Steve Gass invented because it was indeed ground breaking, but when he decided to go to the dark side and force the entire industry to capitulate and mandate only what he invented...that was a bridge too far.

The second slap in the face is when he sued Bosch and prevented them from marketing their solution while at the same time thousands of fingers were still being cut off and he had little regard for the humanity of that situation. It was all about the grift...

 

[tomktest]

It isn’t ethical to expect the company who invented a product to share profits with everyone else who did not invest in their own R & D. I think protected patents should last longer than 10 years. It’s their private property. Their labor who created it.

I'm all for protecting one's work however I don't agree with the issuance of overly broad patents that completely lock out the competition from bringing their own novel approaches to solving the same problem. It's also doesn't seem ethical for a company to say it is concerned about safety but only if their technology is licensed.

The Bosch REAXX was clearly a different approach to solve the TS safety issue. Bosch spent its own $$ on R&D to develop it. As long as a competing solution is substantially different to non-obvious methods then it should be allowed to market.

I give Steve Gass credit for developing a unique approach. I NEVER would have thought of it because it's so stupid - there are other ways to stop the blade that don't cause damage.  The fact that the blade disappears beneath the table is a side effect due to angular momentum from the offset force and IMO isn't materially safer than a blade that just stops in place.

 

[forestmount]

Patents don’t work in a broad way.

You cannot patent toast but you can patent a way to make toast. So if the competition is being stopped on the patent the method they are using is not different enough

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

 

[ChuckM]

An interesting question is that could or has Bosch patented its non-destructive technology? If it could and has, it would make its saws more appealing than any SS clones after the expiry of the patents.

 

[ChuckM]

Snip.
I give Steve Gass credit for developing a unique approach. I NEVER would have thought of it because it's so stupid - there are other ways to stop the blade that don't cause damage.  Snip.

20/20 is always right and looks the smartest. To me, it is not a question of stupidity but a matter of incremental improvements. If Gass hadn't made the SS a success commercially, I doubt any saw manufactures (Bosch or Felder) would've explored their finger-saving technology. Remember how long it took before we saw table saws sold in North America fitted with a riving knife?

Did anyone ask which approach (SS vs Reaxx) reacted faster upon the detection of the contact of skin? According to an internal doc. I saw a few years back when the Reaxx was launched, the SS's was faster by an hair (based on the job site model?). Would this matter in the case of a cabinet saw? We may only find out if and when both versions of finger-saving cabinet saws are produced and tested.

If 2024 is really the year all SS patents (critical one?) will have expired, as some suggested, then next year, we should start seeing "prototypes" from various saw manufacturers in the form of infotainment videos.

 

[Sparktrician]

I'm far more impressed by the Bosch REAXX mechanism and the fact that no blades or other expensive mechanisms need to be replaced.  Only the cartridge needs to be replaced.  The REAXX cartridge blows the blade below the saw deck in a short instant, negating the need to stop the blade's spinning in as brief a time.

I'm with Willy on this one...Initially I was a big fan of what Steve Gass invented because it was indeed ground breaking, but when he decided to go to the dark side and force the entire industry to capitulate and mandate only what he invented...that was a bridge too far.

The second slap in the face is when he sued Bosch and prevented them from marketing their solution while at the same time thousands of fingers were still being cut off and he had little regard for the humanity of that situation. It was all about the grift...

I think the finger-saving technology is wonderful, especially after my dear, sweet, bald-headed dad tried to take the tip of a finger off with a radial arm saw when I was a wee kid.  That said, the Bosch approach makes so much more sense.  Given the behavior of Gass, I can only wish him a nice, warm bunk on the south side of Hades, and the fleas of a thousand camels to infest his private areas. 

That said, I hope Bosch is using the time wisely to design and produce their REAXX, Mark II in time to be ready for patent expiration. 

 

[Grits]

Here is the woodcraft link that they just published
https://www.woodcraft.com/products/compact-table-saw-sawstop?via=573621bd69702d0676000002

 

[GoingMyWay]

On The Tool Nut also:https://www.toolnut.com/sawstop-cts-120a60-10-compact-table-saw.html

 

[fraz]

Top and fence look very similar to my Dewalt.

Dewalt 7480 user here.  I'm gonna go a step further here and say outright I think the main saw may be OEM-built by Dewalt for ToolTechnic.  Way too many exact features and dimensions.  The final giveaway for me was the hand holds and nubs on the sides of the table, they are superfluous and no reason to simply copy them.  I also see what looks like the same grey powder-coated aluminum table.  Also, Dewalt removed their 10" compact saw (7480,744,etc) from the market in the year or so run up to this release.  Their business is now based on the 8-1/4" blade, battery operated saws for compacts, and they still keep the 7491rs for a 10" offering.  Makes sense to take the most successful 10" compact saw ever and build on that as a base.

Just my take $.02

Will I get one?... that's a hard maybe   The downsides to my current saw are the elevator will eventually die and become finicky.  I have had mine apart and rebuilt it and tweaked it enough times now to know better.  The table would be fine in aluminum, but the miter slots ain't parallel/perfect.  Close for jobsite lumber, a real b for fine woodworking.  I primarily do the latter and keep this saw because it is the right size for tiny shop.  Even with those deficiencies, it's a damn good saw.  If there are enough improvements in the SS when I see one in person, I'll likely get one.