New Cordless Spraying Video: Fine Finish

Scott B.

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Hey guys,

Just wanted to pass this along. We are working on an instructional video series with Graco this year. The first video features me with a cordless handheld, shooting dye stain and clear on a shaker style desk. The ETS125 even makes a cameo in the spray area.

This is a direction we are excited to be moving in. Let me know if there are things you would like to learn about related to sprayed finishes through this video series.

Thanks

 
Scott,
    In this video you used a Graco cordless sprayer.  How would you stack up this Graco with, say, the Apollo 1050VR?  Cordless clearly has advantages in maneuverability, but disadvantages in the area of battery life.  Which HVLP unit currently available comes closest to the idealized "one size fits all" model, or could be described as the best all-around HVLP unit for those that can not justify or afford more than one, both for fine finishes as well as general wall finishes, using latex at the least viscous end of things? 

 
Scott B. said:
he first video features me with a cordless handheld, shooting dye stain and clear on a shaker style desk. The ETS125 even makes a cameo in the spray area.

Scott:
Great video, content and great production quality. Bravo.

There are probably enough questions here on the FOG about spray finishing and equipment to keep you busy for a lifetime.

BTW, nice you didn't edit out the part where the drip dropped on the top.
You probably could do a number of video's about typical problems encountered while spraying, fixing problems created when spray finishing or problems created by improper setups etc.
Tim

Tim
 
Scott, basic instructional videos about dialing in spray patterns would be helpfull for noobs, especially for air assisted 395, showing the difference between right and wrong patterns and how to correct (too high and low pressure for both air and paint). Also would be helpful in all vids to mention the spray tip fan size being used so folks wanting to do the same know what to get.

Your blog, vids and posts have helped me with purchasing decisions and improved my technique for which I am very greatful, thanks for what you do and if you ever find yourself in the Sacramento area drinks are on me :)
 
Scott, these are excellent news. I look forward to it since I have both Proshot Pro guns. BTW, you are responsible that I made this purchase!
With the Proshot Pro II I spray Latex paint and I am sure it can do better and more.
Cheers
Luis
 
Sparktrician said:
Scott,
    In this video you used a Graco cordless sprayer.  How would you stack up this Graco with, say, the Apollo 1050VR?  Cordless clearly has advantages in maneuverability, but disadvantages in the area of battery life.  Which HVLP unit currently available comes closest to the idealized "one size fits all" model, or could be described as the best all-around HVLP unit for those that can not justify or afford more than one, both for fine finishes as well as general wall finishes, using latex at the least viscous end of things?  

Good question, Sparktrician. First off, just to be clear, all of the Proshots are airless in nature. They are oft confused with HVLP because they run on an attached quart cup. By virtue of being airless, (compared to HVLP), the PS is running at significantly higher pressure. The bottom of the power band on the unit in the video might be 500 psi (fluid pressure) versus about 6 psi (air) on an HVLP with the same product. Kind of apples and oranges on paper, but in reality, here is the deal. The HVLP is technically the finer, more precision atomized fan. Airless tend to "shear" product, while HVLP creates tidy little droplets. That said, with correct technique, I can get very similar results with both machines in the same product, mostly because I know how to adapt technique for the machine in my hand.

For instance, a well respected artisan, The Wood Whisperer, a month or so ago had an admittedly nightmarish experience using a cordless for the first time, and trying to do so with the same technique he would use with his Fuji HVLP. Recipe for disaster. Because the PS is dispensing fluid at such a higher rate, the technique is completely different, in terms of pace and distance from target.

The "one size fits all" question is also a good question and I (and many other users) get it alot about sanders: which one can do it all? Same question with sprayers, and the answer is the same: "all of what?"

It depends on the most common types of work you do. If you work in a shop and spray one piece of furniture at a time, one quart at a time, to a high fine finish standard, I will take a good HVLP all day long.

If you also go out in the field (like me), and spray spindle rail systems on decks, bulkheads, garage doors and everything else that you don't want to spend time brushing, then a cordless is worth its weight in gold, and will beat an HVLP across the board at every turn.

The cordless handhelds are convenience tools. A good HVLP, like the Apollo or the Graco 9.5, is a more sophisticated "bread winner" tool.

Sorry to be circuitous in my answer, but if you tell me what type of finishing you do most often, I can answer more specifically about the choice between the two technologies.

Very good questions.

Edit: just noticed the part of your question about general wall finishes, etc. Neither is particularly adroit in that realm, because both are limited to quart cup capacity, which is impractical on any large scale, like walls. The exception is that we do occasionally use a Proshot to cut in corners on new drywall. Way faster than brushing.

Also, in the very low viscosity range, a good HVLP will be more efficient than an airless handheld. The handhelds are more like generalists that are capable across a broad range, while the HVLP is more like a specialist in that bottom end range of viscosity. I know, Bader or someone is going to remind me that I do spray unthinned latex primer and paint in 5 stage HVLP's. But if that was the sole discipline, I would sooner grab a ProShot. It would get done faster.
 
Tim Raleigh said:
Scott B. said:
he first video features me with a cordless handheld, shooting dye stain and clear on a shaker style desk. The ETS125 even makes a cameo in the spray area.

Scott:
Great video, content and great production quality. Bravo.

There are probably enough questions here on the FOG about spray finishing and equipment to keep you busy for a lifetime.

BTW, nice you didn't edit out the part where the drip dropped on the top.
You probably could do a number of video's about typical problems encountered while spraying, fixing problems created when spray finishing or problems created by improper setups etc.
Tim

Tim

Thanks Tim.

Yes, it is important to Graco and to us to keep this stuff real. The videographer we are working with on this project is freakin amazing, and I respected the fact that he kept the entire thing organic and real. I liked the fact that none of it was choreographed or rehearsed. Honestly, I hadn't shot dye through a handheld before, so it was like "live without a net". But we all wanted to show that that is how I would approach it on a real project. And thats how it would go...rubber gloves, a rag, and a big fat roll of the dice. To me, that is the craft of finishing. Jobs throw curve balls at us all the time, that we have to think our way through. And so, I approached it with that same mentality.

When presented with any finishing (or even estimating or specification situation), my mind at this point pretty quickly recognizes at least 5 ways to do any project (different permutations of tool and product technologies, basically), and then I choose the one that will fit the budget and schedule the best. These days, it is all about dancing the perfect line between quality and production. Thats what made it cool that Graco let me choose product and process for the project. Dye is fast. Even though I hadn't done it before by that delivery method, I thought I could get it to fly. And knew before pulling the trigger that it would be a wiping exercise as well. By the time I got through that and shifted gears to the clear, it felt very easy. I have made every mistake in the world in applying waterbornes and omu's over waterborne dye.

An advanced video would be: How do you not reactivate the wb dye with your wb topcoat?

The best laid plans and a quick nod to the finish gods to be on your side that day.

The next video that will come out will be a primer and paint grade furniture project, featuring my colleague, Todd Pudvar. Then, the series shifts gears into some larger scale stuff. Its going to be a lot of fun.

And I am very open to all suggestions of things that the FOG members would find beneficial to see, discuss and learn about.
 
Paul G said:
Scott, basic instructional videos about dialing in spray patterns would be helpfull for noobs, especially for air assisted 395, showing the difference between right and wrong patterns and how to correct (too high and low pressure for both air and paint). Also would be helpful in all vids to mention the spray tip fan size being used so folks wanting to do the same know what to get.

Your blog, vids and posts have helped me with purchasing decisions and improved my technique for which I am very greatful, thanks for what you do and if you ever find yourself in the Sacramento area drinks are on me :)

I agree, Paul. One of the hardest parts is initial set up and dial in, and it is different from one product to another. Tip selection, pressure settings, pace, distance from target, material reduction, etc...

Without even getting too bogged down in the techie side, some basics on what to look for in a fan pattern, and the technique for a given sprayer to deliver that pattern to vertical and horizontal surfaces, yes I think Tim R is right that we could spend alot of time right here in the FOG without ever getting bored. I'm game.

I have not been to Sacramento, but I hope to someday and will most def hold you to that offer. Once in a while, I do like a refreshing libation.

Thanks for you kind words. Happy to help.
 
Luis (ridgenj) said:
Scott, these are excellent news. I look forward to it since I have both Proshot Pro guns. BTW, you are responsible that I made this purchase!
With the Proshot Pro II I spray Latex paint and I am sure it can do better and more.
Cheers
Luis

Luis

Thank you for sharing that. You will enjoy the next video that comes out, for sure. It is also ProShot, but primer and paint finish system. Feel free to message me anytime if you have questions on how to get the best performance out of your rigs.
 
Good video Scott,

  I'm a hobbyist with a couple guns.  Each time I use them I find myself learning something new. 

I enjoyed the part of the video where you state "Never sand after applying your stain".

Um....yeah, my first project I built that was not paint grade ( I think I was around 20 years old)  I thought that you needed to sand between every coat.

NOT TRUE!  That was one of the first things I learned about finishing. 

Looking forward to more videos from you.  I love building, but hate finishing a project.  The info you pass along will make the finishing part easier and more enjoyable.  Keep up the great work.

Eric
 
Scott, your reviews about the Graco FP 395 steered me to it being a viable contender for the 'one size fits all' painting tool. I got it and am soon done doing airless work (I got a separate hose and Contractor gun for that purpose and it is working fabulously at that) and will soon be doing air assisted on trims, doors and cabinets using a variety of paints. The accessory hopper helps reduce paint waste somewhat when doing smaller jobs.
 
erock said:
Good video Scott,

  I'm a hobbyist with a couple guns.  Each time I use them I find myself learning something new. 

I enjoyed the part of the video where you state "Never sand after applying your stain".

Um....yeah, my first project I built that was not paint grade ( I think I was around 20 years old)  I thought that you needed to sand between every coat.

NOT TRUE!   That was one of the first things I learned about finishing. 

Looking forward to more videos from you.  I love building, but hate finishing a project.  The info you pass along will make the finishing part easier and more enjoyable.   Keep up the great work.

Eric

Thanks Eric, I appreciate the feedback. I check out your youtube vids as well and I enjoy them for many of the same reasons I am enjoying putting this series together. You do real, practical, unrehearsed and unchoreographed content. The world needs less sizzle and more steak.

I do hope that I can help you and others through finish-phobia. It is intimidating. To this day, I still get the butterflies every time I load a sprayer. Thats the healthy respect that every tool calls for. But I also think that finishing is much more simple than many people realize, especially with new product and tool technologies that are available.

If I can figure it out, you guys that run all these wacky techie nerdo Festool LR32's and space modulator routers can certainly get your heads around it.

 
Paul G said:
Scott, your reviews about the Graco FP 395 steered me to it being a viable contender for the 'one size fits all' painting tool. I got it and am soon done doing airless work (I got a separate hose and Contractor gun for that purpose and it is working fabulously at that) and will soon be doing air assisted on trims, doors and cabinets using a variety of paints. The accessory hopper helps reduce paint waste somewhat when doing smaller jobs.

Paul

I have been know to say on many occasions (here on the FOG and elsewhere), that if I had to live with just one sprayer for all applications for the rest of my life, it would probably be the 395 Finish Pro aaa. For the entire spectrum of finishes, everything from pumping drywall primer to high end cab grade, that'd be tough to beat.

If there were an Olympics in finishing, that'd be the class I would want to compete in.

I had been thinking about recommending to Graco that we do a 395 component in this series, thanks for the nudge.
 
Scott B. said:
erock said:
Good video Scott,

 I'm a hobbyist with a couple guns.  Each time I use them I find myself learning something new.  

I enjoyed the part of the video where you state "Never sand after applying your stain".

Um....yeah, my first project I built that was not paint grade ( I think I was around 20 years old)  I thought that you needed to sand between every coat.

NOT TRUE!   That was one of the first things I learned about finishing.  

Looking forward to more videos from you.  I love building, but hate finishing a project.  The info you pass along will make the finishing part easier and more enjoyable.   Keep up the great work.

Eric

Thanks Eric, I appreciate the feedback. I check out your youtube vids as well and I enjoy them for many of the same reasons I am enjoying putting this series together. You do real, practical, unrehearsed and unchoreographed content. The world needs less sizzle and more steak.

I do hope that I can help you and others through finish-phobia. It is intimidating. To this day, I still get the butterflies every time I load a sprayer. Thats the healthy respect that every tool calls for. But I also think that finishing is much more simple than many people realize, especially with new product and tool technologies that are available.

If I can figure it out, you guys that run all these wacky techie nerdo Festool LR32's and space modulator routers can certainly get your heads around it.

[big grin]  [thumbs up]

That's funny!  Just goes to show that every guy  has his own niche.  To me, the LR32 and building things come easy.  For you, covering up my mistakes with filler and paint some easy!  [big grin]

Eric
 
Exactly right, erock. Comfort zones, that is what its all about. The more of us who can articulate our comfort zones and areas of expertise, the better off we all are.
 
Scott

Good video.  have you every thought about doing an online seminar doing a project finishing in paint and stain, and fixing mistakes?  I think a lot of people or maybe just me get nervous or anxious when it comes to finishing.
 
Wooden Skye said:
Scott

Good video.  have you every thought about doing an online seminar doing a project finishing in paint and stain, and fixing mistakes?  I think a lot of people or maybe just me get nervous or anxious when it comes to finishing.

WS

Interesting idea. Its crossed the radar here and there in the past, I guess I need to ponder the logistics of it. I think there probably would  be enough interest to justify looking into it.

What do you think the most common mistakes to show fixes for would be? To me, the most common that come to mind are runs, sags, curtains, fat lips...mostly all due to over application, or what we call "getting greedy with the sprayer", going for too much at once. It would be interesting to show fixes for problems like that, and then prevention methods.

And I think you are correct, finishing is stressful. It is why most good finishers are a little goofy.  [scared]
 
Scott B. said:
And I think you are correct, finishing is stressful. It is why most good finishers are a little goofy.  [scared]

And here I thought it was the fumes  [laughing]
 
Scott

I personally think a lot of problems are from improper setup and technique, and probably a lot more, like thinning or as you mentioned in the video when to sand or not to sand.  It is also my opinion that it is easy to get overloaded with info or techniques from books or videos and you sort of get paralyzed when it is time to do the job.  This "expert says this, this other expert says that".  Maybe a video/web seminar would only add to mine or others confusion, but seeing your work and how you tend to break it down to more lay men's terms may make for interesting learning, and your use of multiple types of finishes would probably serve multiple audiences.

Bryan
 
Wooden Skye said:
Scott

I personally think a lot of problems are from improper setup and technique, and probably a lot more, like thinning or as you mentioned in the video when to sand or not to sand.  It is also my opinion that it is easy to get overloaded with info or techniques from books or videos and you sort of get paralyzed when it is time to do the job.  This "expert says this, this other expert says that".  Maybe a video/web seminar would only add to mine or others confusion, but seeing your work and how you tend to break it down to more lay men's terms may make for interesting learning, and your use of multiple types of finishes would probably serve multiple audiences.

Bryan

WS

The simplest way to think about finishing is this: product drives the process. Product selection is the first consideration for any project.

What finish am I going to put on?

Then it becomes a question of:

How will I apply it?

Which goes deeper into:

What will my process be?

Product selection comes first, and that drives everything else. So, this means you need to know product. Up until about 6 years ago, this was pretty easy because there was pretty much a long standing status quo. Then, all products started changing, which meant that everything else changes too...the brushes, rollers, abrasives, sprayers, tips, etc. It all follows the paint.

Thats what makes it so confusing riight now. You go searching the internet for finish info, and most of what is out there is very outdated, no longer really relevant to today's world of finishes. Some of it was even written by good, knowledgeable, well-meaning people at the time, but it is totally 5 minutes ago.

Some other stuff that you will find, the old Learn to Finish Like a Professional Finisher type of stuff...alot of that was put out by people who were not professional finishers. So, that gets pretty confusing. I check out alot of what is out there and it is depressing. Just alot of bad info put out by people who in some cases have tremendous followings. More harm than good, in a hurry.

That's why with this Graco instructional series, its not about sprayers per se. The sprayer is the delivery method, which is realistic, but the instructional content is on how to finish projects, with a particular emphasis on breaking down process to make it easier. This first round, which was months in planning, we decided to do cordless sprayers in stain/clear and primer/paint grade small projects. I think you will see the content become increasingly more advanced and the projects successively larger, but the emphasis will be consistent.

I do think at some point I'd like to take the time to compile some sort of a downloadable guide, maybe even an ebook, that compiles all in one place, the different machine settings and tip selections for all the different sprayer technologies across the different product viscosities, with explanation and visuals. That would be a fun project, and probably a good way to create resource that would help people get out of the gate to finishing. One of these days.

Thanks for the thought provoking suggestions.
 
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