New Cordless Spraying Video: Fine Finish

Scott B. said:
Sparktrician said:
Scott,
    In this video you used a Graco cordless sprayer.  How would you stack up this Graco with, say, the Apollo 1050VR?  Cordless clearly has advantages in maneuverability, but disadvantages in the area of battery life.  Which HVLP unit currently available comes closest to the idealized "one size fits all" model, or could be described as the best all-around HVLP unit for those that can not justify or afford more than one, both for fine finishes as well as general wall finishes, using latex at the least viscous end of things? 

Good question, Sparktrician. First off, just to be clear, all of the Proshots are airless in nature. They are oft confused with HVLP because they run on an attached quart cup. By virtue of being airless, (compared to HVLP), the PS is running at significantly higher pressure. The bottom of the power band on the unit in the video might be 500 psi (fluid pressure) versus about 6 psi (air) on an HVLP with the same product. Kind of apples and oranges on paper, but in reality, here is the deal. The HVLP is technically the finer, more precision atomized fan. Airless tend to "shear" product, while HVLP creates tidy little droplets. That said, with correct technique, I can get very similar results with both machines in the same product, mostly because I know how to adapt technique for the machine in my hand.

For instance, a well respected artisan, The Wood Whisperer, a month or so ago had an admittedly nightmarish experience using a cordless for the first time, and trying to do so with the same technique he would use with his Fuji HVLP. Recipe for disaster. Because the PS is dispensing fluid at such a higher rate, the technique is completely different, in terms of pace and distance from target.

The "one size fits all" question is also a good question and I (and many other users) get it alot about sanders: which one can do it all? Same question with sprayers, and the answer is the same: "all of what?"

It depends on the most common types of work you do. If you work in a shop and spray one piece of furniture at a time, one quart at a time, to a high fine finish standard, I will take a good HVLP all day long.

If you also go out in the field (like me), and spray spindle rail systems on decks, bulkheads, garage doors and everything else that you don't want to spend time brushing, then a cordless is worth its weight in gold, and will beat an HVLP across the board at every turn.

The cordless handhelds are convenience tools. A good HVLP, like the Apollo or the Graco 9.5, is a more sophisticated "bread winner" tool.

Sorry to be circuitous in my answer, but if you tell me what type of finishing you do most often, I can answer more specifically about the choice between the two technologies.

Very good questions.

Edit: just noticed the part of your question about general wall finishes, etc. Neither is particularly adroit in that realm, because both are limited to quart cup capacity, which is impractical on any large scale, like walls. The exception is that we do occasionally use a Proshot to cut in corners on new drywall. Way faster than brushing.

Also, in the very low viscosity range, a good HVLP will be more efficient than an airless handheld. The handhelds are more like generalists that are capable across a broad range, while the HVLP is more like a specialist in that bottom end range of viscosity. I know, Bader or someone is going to remind me that I do spray unthinned latex primer and paint in 5 stage HVLP's. But if that was the sole discipline, I would sooner grab a ProShot. It would get done faster.

Scott,
    Thanks very much for the thoughtful input.  It's very much appreciated. 

Scott B. said:
Wooden Skye said:
Scott

I personally think a lot of problems are from improper setup and technique, and probably a lot more, like thinning or as you mentioned in the video when to sand or not to sand.  It is also my opinion that it is easy to get overloaded with info or techniques from books or videos and you sort of get paralyzed when it is time to do the job.  This "expert says this, this other expert says that".  Maybe a video/web seminar would only add to mine or others confusion, but seeing your work and how you tend to break it down to more lay men's terms may make for interesting learning, and your use of multiple types of finishes would probably serve multiple audiences.

Bryan

WS

The simplest way to think about finishing is this: product drives the process. Product selection is the first consideration for any project.

What finish am I going to put on?

Then it becomes a question of:

How will I apply it?

Which goes deeper into:

What will my process be?

Product selection comes first, and that drives everything else. So, this means you need to know product. Up until about 6 years ago, this was pretty easy because there was pretty much a long standing status quo. Then, all products started changing, which meant that everything else changes too...the brushes, rollers, abrasives, sprayers, tips, etc. It all follows the paint.

Thats what makes it so confusing riight now. You go searching the internet for finish info, and most of what is out there is very outdated, no longer really relevant to today's world of finishes. Some of it was even written by good, knowledgeable, well-meaning people at the time, but it is totally 5 minutes ago.

Some other stuff that you will find, the old Learn to Finish Like a Professional Finisher type of stuff...alot of that was put out by people who were not professional finishers. So, that gets pretty confusing. I check out alot of what is out there and it is depressing. Just alot of bad info put out by people who in some cases have tremendous followings. More harm than good, in a hurry.

That's why with this Graco instructional series, its not about sprayers per se. The sprayer is the delivery method, which is realistic, but the instructional content is on how to finish projects, with a particular emphasis on breaking down process to make it easier. This first round, which was months in planning, we decided to do cordless sprayers in stain/clear and primer/paint grade small projects. I think you will see the content become increasingly more advanced and the projects successively larger, but the emphasis will be consistent.

I do think at some point I'd like to take the time to compile some sort of a downloadable guide, maybe even an ebook, that compiles all in one place, the different machine settings and tip selections for all the different sprayer technologies across the different product viscosities, with explanation and visuals. That would be a fun project, and probably a good way to create resource that would help people get out of the gate to finishing. One of these days.

Thanks for the thought provoking suggestions.

Please make it soon!!!  Einstein's theory on knowledge seems to be more prevalent here with me.  "The more you know, the more you know that you DON'T know." 

Thanks again for your thoughtful responses. 

 
Willy

I really appreciate the feedback and info from all of you guys, about what aspects of finishing are the most intimidating.

I am a very much a student, learning new stuff every day about product and process, I am lucky to be in the position of being a paint contractor and also working with manufacturers on products...both paints and prep/application tools. I enjoy seeing what the mfr's are formulating, and then translating it to the real world of finishing professionally.

I'll make sure the FOG is among the first to know when the day comes that I compile a finish resource. It is probably something that Todd and I will work on together through our Prep to Finish site.

I hope all members who wrestle with finishes will keep the ideas flowing. Thanks.
 
Hi Scott,

This suggestion is based on a telephone conversation from a potential customer I had a couple of days ago.

This potential customer was referred to me by a designer who works for one of the major paint companies.  (yes, in the future you might actually see some of the stuff I like to do). Apparently she had previously been talking to to another contractor about some trim and mantle and one of the turn-offs was that he refused to do any finishing (in this case stain grade) on the work if he was hired.

I know that there are a bazillion different finishing procedures, but just like you are a painter at heart and as such sometimes delve in the carpentry aspect there are tons of carpenters out there who have to cross the line the other way.

How about a finishing series (even elementary) for the carpenters out there who are finishing deficient illustrating the bare bone basics so that they might be less likely to turn down the most basic of work.

Just a thought.

Peter
 
Peter Halle said:
Hi Scott,

This suggestion is based on a telephone conversation from a potential customer I had a couple of days ago.

This potential customer was referred to me by a designer who works for one of the major paint companies.  (yes, in the future you might actually see some of the stuff I like to do). Apparently she had previously been talking to to another contractor about some trim and mantle and one of the turn-offs was that he refused to do any finishing (in this case stain grade) on the work if he was hired.

I know that there are a bazillion different finishing procedures, but just like you are a painter at heart and as such sometimes delve in the carpentry aspect there are tons of carpenters out there who have to cross the line the other way.

How about a finishing series (even elementary) for the carpenters out there who are finishing deficient illustrating the bare bone basics so that they might be less likely to turn down the most basic of work.

Just a thought.

Peter

Peter

That is exactly how I look at it. Its like learning another language. A couple of months ago, we had Brian Sedgeley in the shop for a full day of HVLP training on the 9.5 Turboforce (Graco) 5 stage, and all day long we were making connections between the lexicon of carpentry/woodworking and finishing. The processes are very parallel, just a different set of tools and skills. You build products with wood, we build finishes. Its the same concept.

I am very much a novice carpenter, a total DIY. You should have seen the blank stare the first time I set up a MFT and clamping elements, or the track saw to make a real cut, or just trying to figure out the Centrotec chucks, bit sets and settings on drills. There is a blank stare and a whole bunch of trial and error, then the lightbulb goes on. Anyone can pull the trigger on the drill (or sprayer), but putting all the right components together, with the right settings and technique makes the difference.

Finishing is the same thing, but its a little more cumbersome to set up a sprayer and do trial and error. I think alot of guys do it at the point of project finishing, where its do or die. And that is the most stressful.

In my paint business, on residential repaints, we constantly get into siding replacement, rot repair, flashing, total crossover into minor carpentry tasks that are too small to hire a pro carpenter to come and do. I know it works the other way for you guys. That was the whole intent of the JLC article I wrote in December about Waterborne Finishes. Getting info out to guys who cross over from remodeling into finishing, so that whether or not they try to paint it themselves, at least they know what is going on with products (and therefore process) right now.

So, yes, a "start from scratch" approach to finishing is likely the way to make the biggest difference across the largest number of people. I look forward to seeing more of what you do, and other FOG-ers as well. That makes it real for me, to see what types of projects people work on most typically and where they get hung up.
 
We were talking earlier about sprayer selection. Here's an example of a situation where ProShot is the only choice, for production and mobility. It's an outdoor mechanical/utility space that needs to be sprayed with exterior product. Brush and rollers would take probably 40 hours to even approach this coverage. And it would suck. ProShot did it in one hour. Took 2 hours to mask for it. Dragging an HVLP (or any hosed rig) through there would not be much fun, and the product would have to be thinned. Non thinned here. Good way to close out a friday. This is what I mean when I describe it as a convenience tool. It probably won't be your everyday rig, but when you need it, it comes through big. That's 3.5 hours of painting, from set up to break down (including sprayer cleanup and pulling masking), that you don't bill at your general labor rate.

 
I echo what everyone said about a good job on the video. Any word about a backpack for the PROShot? Thanks.
 
James Metcalf said:
I echo what everyone said about a good job on the video. Any word about a backpack for the PROShot? Thanks.

Hi James

Thanks. Yes, there is a backpack. Well designed and with a one gallon reservoir, which quadruples the capacity and lightens the weight of the gun. I believe it is in the $200 range. If you have done projects with the PS that require 2-3 gallons, you will understand that a quart burns off pretty quick. My opinion is that the backpack enhances the mobility factor and reduces the need for a reload station in the immediate work zone. Good feature.
 
Scott B. said:
Tim Raleigh said:
Scott B. said:
he first video features me with a cordless handheld, shooting dye stain and clear on a shaker style desk. The ETS125 even makes a cameo in the spray area.

Scott:
Great video, content and great production quality. Bravo.

There are probably enough questions here on the FOG about spray finishing and equipment to keep you busy for a lifetime.

BTW, nice you didn't edit out the part where the drip dropped on the top.
You probably could do a number of video's about typical problems encountered while spraying, fixing problems created when spray finishing or problems created by improper setups etc.
Tim

Tim

Thanks Tim.

Yes, it is important to Graco and to us to keep this stuff real. The videographer we are working with on this project is freakin amazing, and I respected the fact that he kept the entire thing organic and real. I liked the fact that none of it was choreographed or rehearsed. Honestly, I hadn't shot dye through a handheld before, so it was like "live without a net". But we all wanted to show that that is how I would approach it on a real project. And thats how it would go...rubber gloves, a rag, and a big fat roll of the dice. To me, that is the craft of finishing. Jobs throw curve balls at us all the time, that we have to think our way through. And so, I approached it with that same mentality.

When presented with any finishing (or even estimating or specification situation), my mind at this point pretty quickly recognizes at least 5 ways to do any project (different permutations of tool and product technologies, basically), and then I choose the one that will fit the budget and schedule the best. These days, it is all about dancing the perfect line between quality and production. Thats what made it cool that Graco let me choose product and process for the project. Dye is fast. Even though I hadn't done it before by that delivery method, I thought I could get it to fly. And knew before pulling the trigger that it would be a wiping exercise as well. By the time I got through that and shifted gears to the clear, it felt very easy. I have made every mistake in the world in applying waterbornes and omu's over waterborne dye.

An advanced video would be: How do you not reactivate the wb dye with your wb topcoat?

The best laid plans and a quick nod to the finish gods to be on your side that day.

The next video that will come out will be a primer and paint grade furniture project, featuring my colleague, Todd Pudvar. Then, the series shifts gears into some larger scale stuff. Its going to be a lot of fun.

And I am very open to all suggestions of things that the FOG members would find beneficial to see, discuss and learn about.

personally speaking, your timing, i feel, sucks.... i just dropped the money
on a 3m 240 accuspray, and i'd a taken a long hard look at this as an alternative....  [blink]

seriously, it's an excellent video, and most helpful. thanks for posting it here..
 
[/quote]personally speaking, your timing, i feel, sucks.... i just dropped the money
on a 3m 240 accuspray, and i'd a taken a long hard look at this as an alternative....  [blink]

seriously, it's an excellent video, and most helpful. thanks for posting it here..
[/quote]

FT, I've been talking about these cordless handhelds since 2010!  [big grin]

I also use HVLP alot...kind of apples and oranges, but a nice complementary set. Once the pain of the turbine investment has faded, give a shout and I will be happy to help you choose the right handheld.

Thanks for your kind words.
 
This may seem trivial, but I'd be interested in noise level created with this set up.  I currently use a pp system that runs off my 26 gallon compressor that is annoyingly loud.  I don't need a compressor that big and would love to ditch it.  With that said I really like the maneuverability of gun with the pp.  It's not often that I have to spray at a variety of angles in enclosed casework but when I do this set up is nice.
 
rnt80 said:
This may seem trivial, but I'd be interested in noise level created with this set up.  I currently use a pp system that runs off my 26 gallon compressor that is annoyingly loud.  I don't need a compressor that big and would love to ditch it.  With that said I really like the maneuverability of gun with the pp.  It's not often that I have to spray at a variety of angles in enclosed casework but when I do this set up is nice.

Russ

That's actually not trivial at all. Sound is a big part of the sensory experience of spraying. We use all types of sprayers, and they all have their distinctive frequencies and nuances that way. Compressors drive me a little battie too, especially when they kick on unexpectedly.

I don't know the answer in terms of decibels, but I can tell you that the sound of the handhelds is very tolerable, by comparison with other types of sprayers.

Here's a sound bite I posted on friday, and the visual is interesting too. The link is to my G+:

http://plus.google.com/u/0/103643092605182418631/posts/R9FMzyu4WzZ
 
Scott, I'm looking for a sprayer for small projects and minor touch ups including shooting house paints and wondering what you would suggest, a truecoat or something else? I'm not worried about corded or cordless and have sufficient compressor for minor hvlp spraying if that's the better route. Thanks in advance for your thoughts, just not sure which direction to take.
 
Scott B. said:
FT, I've been talking about these cordless handhelds since 2010!  [big grin]

I also use HVLP alot...kind of apples and oranges, but a nice complementary set. Once the pain of the turbine investment has faded, give a shout and I will be happy to help you choose the right handheld.

Thanks for your kind words.

well, i don't get out a lot.... i missed the memo....  [embarassed]

yeah, out the door, the whole deal with two PPE cups for
fast switch and shooting was $1500. ow.

went off to vista paints and got a quart of alkyd emulsion in
high gloss in festool green.... it's thick, and the color offers
no place to hide, and did some testing on various substrates
ranging from bare poplar to mdf, and melamine facing, and
sheetrock, both white and purple board.

put on a 2.0 tip and a #11 spray head, and dumped in the
alkyd without thinning. it was the worst case i could think
of degrading the finish quality. high gloss shot directly onto
mdf with a tip listed for "spatter paint" effects? ok.
shot a photo at 36 megapixels and photoshopped it to bring
out the stipple. hm. crap. the sensor in the camera has more
splotches than the paint does.... the grain on the paint looks
about like the surface of melamine.

the results were better than i had any right to expect.
it's a pretty good spray system....

 
Paul G said:
Scott, I'm looking for a sprayer for small projects and minor touch ups including shooting house paints and wondering what you would suggest, a truecoat or something else? I'm not worried about corded or cordless and have sufficient compressor for minor hvlp spraying if that's the better route. Thanks in advance for your thoughts, just not sure which direction to take.

Paul

I think you said earlier that you have a 395 aaa, and are happy with it. Sounds like you might be looking for a supplement. As a 395 owner, and also having all of the HVLP and cordless options in house, I find myself grabbing a cordless more often than an HVLP for convenience tasks. As always, it depends on the types of tasks you are faced with most often.

From what you describe, I would probably choose handheld over HVLP.
 
FT

HVLP is an investment, but capable or remarkable results, especially as you get to know the system better. Personally, I cannot imagine not having HVLP in my arsenal for certain applications.

All that matters in any of this is that, regardless of sprayer technology, you get the gun to spray and the product to lay down to your satisfaction. It may be the photo manipulation, but the picture you posted looks a little orange peely compared to what I would expect an HVLP to do in the product type you described. If in real life it is as smooth as melamine, you are on the right track and should feel good about the direction you are heading. From your wording, I would guess that is the case.

Cheers!
 
Scott B. said:
FT

HVLP is an investment, but capable or remarkable results, especially as you get to know the system better. Personally, I cannot imagine not having HVLP in my arsenal for certain applications.

All that matters in any of this is that, regardless of sprayer technology, you get the gun to spray and the product to lay down to your satisfaction. It may be the photo manipulation, but the picture you posted looks a little orange peely compared to what I would expect an HVLP to do in the product type you described. If in real life it is as smooth as melamine, you are on the right track and should feel good about the direction you are heading. From your wording, I would guess that is the case.

Cheers!

nope, it's not like glass, there is some orange peel.
i fiddled with the photo to bring it out as much as possible,
so the texture was visible.

i'm open to suggestions on reducing it.... drop down to a
1.5 mm needle? xim extender?

btw, friend of mine in prescott i was talking with might
very well be interested in a airless cordless wonder...
suggestions on model number would be appreciated.
most of what he would be doing in homeowner finishing,
no fine furniture....

which graco handheld would you suggest?
 
There's a promotion on for some of the Graco handhelds: Graco coupon

Two hundred buck rebate brings the Fine Finish into a price range that interests me. I've never used any kind of airless and even having viewed the video I'm still very ignorant about this thing. I'm planning to build a number of cabinets with mdf doors/drawers and the plan was to use my pressure pot and hvlp gun to shoot primer and probably SW WB ProClassic enamel. I was and still am put off by thinning and using Floetrol.  I'd love to just pour the finish in the cup and go to work. I'm looking at some of the literature and sell information for the Fine Finish - lots of tips available and I wouldn't know where to start.

Big bonus would be the ability to run out in the back yard and shoot a coat of stain on cedar yard furniture. If I can buy the backpack then I'm eyeballing that decrepit popcorn ceiling.  ;D
 
Scott B. said:
Paul G said:
Scott, I'm looking for a sprayer for small projects and minor touch ups including shooting house paints and wondering what you would suggest, a truecoat or something else? I'm not worried about corded or cordless and have sufficient compressor for minor hvlp spraying if that's the better route. Thanks in advance for your thoughts, just not sure which direction to take.

Paul

I think you said earlier that you have a 395 aaa, and are happy with it. Sounds like you might be looking for a supplement. As a 395 owner, and also having all of the HVLP and cordless options in house, I find myself grabbing a cordless more often than an HVLP for convenience tasks. As always, it depends on the types of tasks you are faced with most often.

From what you describe, I would probably choose handheld over HVLP.

Thanks Scott, sorta confirmed what I was thinking, now to decide on a model lol. I was thinking the Graco corded electric models TrueCoat Plus II or TrueCoat Pro II Electric, that coupon posted by polarsea1 is making the latter make more sense, thanks polarsea1
 
FulThrotl said:
Scott B. said:
FT

HVLP is an investment, but capable or remarkable results, especially as you get to know the system better. Personally, I cannot imagine not having HVLP in my arsenal for certain applications.

All that matters in any of this is that, regardless of sprayer technology, you get the gun to spray and the product to lay down to your satisfaction. It may be the photo manipulation, but the picture you posted looks a little orange peely compared to what I would expect an HVLP to do in the product type you described. If in real life it is as smooth as melamine, you are on the right track and should feel good about the direction you are heading. From your wording, I would guess that is the case.

Cheers!

nope, it's not like glass, there is some orange peel.
i fiddled with the photo to bring it out as much as possible,
so the texture was visible.

i'm open to suggestions on reducing it.... drop down to a
1.5 mm needle? xim extender?

btw, friend of mine in prescott i was talking with might
very well be interested in a airless cordless wonder...
suggestions on model number would be appreciated.
most of what he would be doing in homeowner finishing,
no fine furniture....

which graco handheld would you suggest?

We usually end up doing a bunch of trial and error with HVLP. For each product, you can mess with reduction, tip size and your own technique to figure out what gives you the best results.

My advice to your friend would be to check out either the ProShot 2 or the TrueCoat Pro 2. They are very similar. The bottom line is that its best to get a model that has the pressure control system.
 
Paul G said:
Scott B. said:
Paul G said:
Scott, I'm looking for a sprayer for small projects and minor touch ups including shooting house paints and wondering what you would suggest, a truecoat or something else? I'm not worried about corded or cordless and have sufficient compressor for minor hvlp spraying if that's the better route. Thanks in advance for your thoughts, just not sure which direction to take.

Paul

I think you said earlier that you have a 395 aaa, and are happy with it. Sounds like you might be looking for a supplement. As a 395 owner, and also having all of the HVLP and cordless options in house, I find myself grabbing a cordless more often than an HVLP for convenience tasks. As always, it depends on the types of tasks you are faced with most often.

From what you describe, I would probably choose handheld over HVLP.

Thanks Scott, sorta confirmed what I was thinking, now to decide on a model lol. I was thinking the Graco corded electric models TrueCoat Plus II or TrueCoat Pro II Electric, that coupon posted by polarsea1 is making the latter make more sense, thanks polarsea1

I think either of those would be good options to consider.
 
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