New Domino XL Alignment Issue

[Bugsysiegals]

I bought my Domino XL back in 2016 along with many other Festool tools and have only recently had the need to use it.  As it turns out, I'm unable to use the tool when I finally need it because of misalignment.  I sent the tool back to Festool with a note describing the issue and received it back with a note saying it was fine.  I retested the machine, have the same issue, and personally don't consider this the quality one should expect from a $1,400 machine.  I don't like the idea of having to contort the wood to fit together whenever using the tool which then requires the amount of sanding which could damage thin plywood veneer.  Am I being to much of a perfectionist?  Would you consider the amount of skew below acceptable or "in spec"?

Below is an image of a single tenon joining two pieces of 10-12" plywood.

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FWIW - I've completely square plywood and a completely flat MFT/3 table for reference.  I've used spacers and clamps to ensure the wood is hanging off the edge of the table so as not to interfere with the Domino while keep everything flat.  I've held the front down firmly, plunged fast/slow, using different sized bits, and even tried using my back hand to twist to the left while plunging to avoid the higher Left skew all with the same result.  Additionally, I've placed the Domino flat on the table, to test whether the bit is aligned with the base plate, and plunged into the wood with the same result seen below.  While it doesn't seem like much, the doubled error, results in the fit seen above.

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As another test, I've held the Domino upside down, placed a 4' woodpeckers rule centered on the bottom of the Domino base plate going side to side and another across the motor arm to get a better visual of how "aligned" the motor is with the base plate.  By doing this, I can clearly see the rule on the motor slanting up to the Left in comparison to the base plate rule which is exactly how it's cutting.  I haven't taken any measurements but could to find the exact angle it's off if it's of any value.

All that said, I'm ready to remove the two outer screws, motor, check if there's a bur/shaving, or anything I can do to get the motor to sit better in the housing so it's closer to parallel with the base plate but am hesitant since I'm not sure whether motor brushes/armatures etc. will come flying out.  Has anybody any experience removing this motor and can it be done without destroying the tool?  Or do I just live with the skew and get over it?

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[rmhinden]

I bought my Domino XL back in 2016 along with many other Festool tools and have only recently had the need to use it.  As it turns out, I'm unable to use the tool when I finally need it because of misalignment.  I sent the tool back to Festool with a note describing the issue and received it back with a note saying it was fine.  I retested the machine, have the same issue, and personally don't consider this the quality one should expect from a $1,400 machine.  I don't like the idea of having to contort the wood to fit together whenever using the tool which then requires the amount of sanding which could damage thin plywood veneer.  Am I being to much of a perfectionist?  Would you consider the amount of skew below acceptable or "in spec"?

No that is not acceptable.  Something is way off, the two boards should be exactly flat.

I see in the background of the first picture, it looks like you are using a Seneca plate.  Double check that it is installed flat on the machine.  Might also be good to test it again without the Seneca plate.

In your other pictures, I don't understand why you are making the mortices so close to the edge.  Better if they are centered in the board.

Hope this is helpful.

Bob

 

[RKA]

I think he was just trying to illustrate how the mortise looks when the base of the machine is flat on the table (pics 2 and 3).  In those pictures it appears acceptable, however, in the picture of the two boards (pic 1), clearly it's not (and I'm wondering if those mortises with the two boards were made with the fence as a reference surface rather than the base)?

 

[ChuckM]

In the first photo, if the table was flat, the board closer to the camera definitely was not dead flat. There is no image of the second board (the one away from the camera) placed by itself on the table, so it is impossible to tell if it was flat.

The center mortise shown is slightly skewed. Check if the fence is square (perpendicular) as well as parallel to base.

The machine should not produce mis-aligned mortises to the extent seen in the first photo.

 

[Jiggy Joiner]

Definitely not acceptable, and defeats the object of such a machine.
It could as mentioned, be linked with the plate. If Festool tested it, and said it was fine, they obviously wouldn’t have tested with the plate.

Or is it the same story used in standard form?

 

[grbmds]

If you really are using a third party jig like the Seneca plate uninstall it and test the XL without it. I doubt there is anything wrong with the jig. However, I found the XL a little more complicated to use than the Domino 500; at least different. Since I don't use my XL as much as the 500 I find that I need to reread the instructions each time so I know the differences between the two.

Given the problem you show in the picture, I think it is more likely that the problem is something else than the XL itself.

Making slots so close to the surface does create problems sometimes and there is always a strength issue and possible break out or bulge on the surface.

I wouldn't remove anything that exposes the brushes or motor. The problem you show is not likely due to anything that could be remedied by doing that. It's likely a much simpler resolution, like something in technique. I know I've periodically has problems and they have always been due to me not the machine.

I would say that the problem is possibly how the tool was resting on the fence when making the cuts; probably not flat.

The other possibility is that the orientation of the boards isn't correct meaning that, when assembling you flipped the faces. Just a suggestion; not meant to indicate anything about you. I've done it accidentally myself.

 

[Bugsysiegals]

No that is not acceptable.  Something is way off, the two boards should be exactly flat.

I see in the background of the first picture, it looks like you are using a Seneca plate.  Double check that it is installed flat on the machine.  Might also be good to test it again without the Seneca plate.

In your other pictures, I don't understand why you are making the mortices so close to the edge.  Better if they are centered in the board.

Hope this is helpful.

Bob

Thanks Bob! 

The plunges I made which are close to the edge were made by setting the XL 700 flat on the MFT/3 in order to remove the fence/plate variables and see whether the bit is aligned with the base plate itself.  I'll perform this exercise again showing the hole and an assembly to help visualize how much the slight error skews the wood.

That said, I do have the Seneca Small Mortising Kit and the previous image with assembled Domino joint was used with it.  Thanks for pointing this out as I'd forgotten about it ... I'll perform the process again with the stock fence in order to remove yet another variable.

Unfortunately I do not have any stock XL 700 bits and have only the Seneca adapter and smaller bits.  I've rolled the adapter across my table, cannot see anything out of center visually, and can't conceive how even if it was wobbly that it would produce tight flat cuts rather than a loose fit cut.  If you agree then I can at least trust that piece and move forward with more tests??

 

[Bugsysiegals]

I think he was just trying to illustrate how the mortise looks when the base of the machine is flat on the table.  In those pictures it appears acceptable, however, in the picture of the two boards, clearly it's not (and I'm wondering if those mortises with the two boards were made with the fence as a reference surface rather than the base)?

Correct, they were made with the Seneca fence ... I will remove and use the stock fence to remove this variable.

 

[Bugsysiegals]

In the first photo, if the table was flat, the board closer to the camera definitely was not dead flat. There is no image of the second board (the one away from the camera) placed by itself on the table, so it is impossible to tell if it was flat.

The center mortise shown is slightly skewed. Check if the fence is square (perpendicular) as well as parallel to base.

The machine should not produce mis-aligned mortises to the extent seen in the first photo.

The board in the image doesn't appear flat on the Left because when joined with the back board creates an "X" which is lifting the Left into the air.  I'll perform some additional testing ... thanks for the input!

 

[Bugsysiegals]

If you really are using a third party jig like the Seneca plate uninstall it and test the XL without it. I doubt there is anything wrong with the jig. However, I found the XL a little more complicated to use than the Domino 500; at least different. Since I don't use my XL as much as the 500 I find that I need to reread the instructions each time so I know the differences between the two.

Given the problem you show in the picture, I think it is more likely that the problem is something else than the XL itself.

Making slots so close to the surface does create problems sometimes and there is always a strength issue and possible break out or bulge on the surface.

I wouldn't remove anything that exposes the brushes or motor. The problem you show is not likely due to anything that could be remedied by doing that. It's likely a much simpler resolution, like something in technique. I know I've periodically has problems and they have always been due to me not the machine.

I would say that the problem is possibly how the tool was resting on the fence when making the cuts; probably not flat.

The other possibility is that the orientation of the boards isn't correct meaning that, when assembling you flipped the faces. Just a suggestion; not meant to indicate anything about you. I've done it accidentally myself.

I've actually folded a sticky note in half twice (.4 mm), wedged it between the adapter plate and stock fence on the Right side, twisted the rear of the machine counter clockwise while plunging, and still had slight skewing of the wood.  To ensure it's not me, I'm going to remove the plate, and do one free hand and another with me clamping the wood to the fence to ensure I cannot twist the machine.  As far as the faces are concerned, I draw a line across the two joining faces, open the pieces so the lines face me, plunge the lines, and reassemble as they were originally. 

 

[rmhinden]

Unfortunately I do not have any stock XL 700 bits and have only the Seneca adapter and smaller bits.  I've rolled the adapter across my table, cannot see anything out of center visually, and can't conceive how even if it was wobbly that it would produce tight flat cuts rather than a loose fit cut.  If you agree then I can at least trust that piece and move forward with more tests??

I tend to agree, but if it's feasible, I suggest you pick up a stock XL bit and try with that.  That will tell you if it's the basic machine, or some error in the Seneca adapters (plate or bit adapter).

I have an XL and the Seneca kit and have never seen this problem.  The only times I have had problems, is when I am not careful to have the XL aligned with the wood.  I can't blame the machine for that

Bob

 

[Birdhunter]

My XL developed the slanted mortise problem after several years of use.

I sent it to Festool along with a sample of two small boards joined at one end with one joint made with the XL. The two small boards clearly showed the misalignment.

The tool was returned along with the same two small boards joined by the adjusted XL. The alignment was perfect.  When I used the XL, the mortises were not as perfect as the ones done by Festool service, but much better than before the service.

So, the tool needed adjustment AND the Festool tech had better technique than I did.

I don't think this slanted mortise problem is rare with the XL. I have a much older 500 and it still cuts perfect mortises. My guess is that the torque exerted by the XL can, over time, skew the alignment enough to cause the slanted mortises.

 

[Bugsysiegals]

I removed the Seneca hardware except for the bit adapter.  I cut brand new pieces, clamped to the MFT, with the fence raised up and the Domino push firmly to the MFT, assembled, and same old song and dance.  As you can see, everything is parallel, flush, etc., and there shouldn't be any user error or machine variables causing this.  Shouldn't the bit be fairly parallel with the base plate?

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Disregard the hole on the Right, when I opened the mating faces to plunge, I'd cut the board on the Left forgetting it needed to be cut on the Right.

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[Bugsysiegals]

This time I used the Fence and watched while plunging ensuring the Left side never lifted up off the wood.  I've the same issue whether using the base plate or fence and I'd imagine the holes would clearly show if I had a bent bit or adapter.

I was really hoping there was some kind of issue on my end but the more I eliminate variables, test, and produce this same garbage, the more I'm upset about this whole ordeal ...

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[ChuckM]

Your photos don't show the fence set-up of your machine. The mortise on the right is much lower than the one on the left (last photo) which is possible only if the fence drifted during mortising. Minor cutting variations would not have produced huge difference in the height of the mortises from the top.

What fence height did you set? Was it locked tight? Could you show a photo of the machine with the fence set in place?

 

[Bugsysiegals]

The hole you're referring to which is lower is from the last picture in post #12 which was placed on the wrong side accidentally when using the base plate only.  To better illustrate this, I've added the photo below.

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To answer your question, per all the threads I’ve exhaustively read, I left the fence up, lowered gently to 20mm stop, tightened the height, then folded the fence down, and tightened the fence.  Not sure if this is what you're after but here's a pic of the fence set into place.

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[grbmds]

With the tool sitting on the MFT as in the last pictures you included, have you measured the height of the fence on both sides to see if they match? The picture makes it look as if one side is higher off the MFT than the other, but it could just be the angle. Sorry if this is something you already did but it's getting a little hard to sift through the various posts to see what has been done or not.

 

[Bugsysiegals]

With the tool sitting on the MFT as in the last pictures you included, have you measured the height of the fence on both sides to see if they match? The picture makes it look as if one side is higher off the MFT than the other, but it could just be the angle. Sorry if this is something you already did but it's getting a little hard to sift through the various posts to see what has been done or not.

I placed the XL on my SawStop table, completely flat, no rocking, brought the fence to the edge of the table, measured, reset the fence as described in posts above, and measured again with same results ... 34.90 mm on the Left and 34.80 on the Right.

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This would indicate the Left has more gap than the Right which would bring the Left side down when pressed to the wood; however, the Left side is actually cutting higher than the Right. In addition, as stated previously, I added a sticky note folded in half twice (.4 mm) as a shim on the Right to further bring down the Left side. It helped but still wasn’t flat and won’t help when using the tool without the fence when plunging something like a partition in a cabinet.

 

[Birdhunter]

I did all the measurements being described when my XL was cutting slanted mortises. My fence aligned perfectly. My technique was very good (perhaps not perfect).

The problem was cured by a quick trip to Festool service.  I don't know what the technicians fixed, but the problem went away.

My guess is that the orientation of the cutter oscillation to the base gets thrown off over time.

 

[RobS888]

I have a similar problem as the OP, but Festool (to my surprise) says if it doesn't happen when using the base it is my fault... wood issues or technique. Mine is pretty bad with the stock 8mm cutter, a little less so with the 10mm cutter. I hold it down firmly on the wood, I push it with my thumb on the plug and my hand underneath the rear. I got the small mortising kit as well, but found the plate was off a bit so I installed it upside down to try balance out the effect. it reduces it, but I still have to sand 3 1/2 trim pieces attached end to end.

it is so consistent that I don't think it is technique. I did find when I slid a straight edge along the fence there was a slight burr around one of the triangular holes on the right side. Sanding that helped a little as well.