New Domino XL Alignment Issue

[Bugsysiegals]

I mailed bugsysiegals a 12” long pair if 2x’s with 10mm mortises on one end (domino base was on the MFT and work piece was clamped to the MFT with a back stop). The far end is off by 1-2mm with no tension and can easily be brought flush with very little pressure.  So while there is a slight skew in the mortises, the results are quite acceptable since it wouldn’t cause an issue in the work.  If he can put 12mm mortises on the other end he can compare the results from the 2 machines to see if there is a real difference, and if there is, hopefully Festool may listen and offer a little more assistance.

Thanks [member=21249]RKA[/member], I don’t have any 12mm tenons, not sure if you included 1 for me?

 

[RKA]

How’s 5?  (12x100mm). They are in the box.

 

[Bugsysiegals]

How’s 5?  (12x100mm). They are in the box.

Thank you kind sir, hope I can return the favor some day!!

 

[Bugsysiegals]

Thanks [member=21249]RKA[/member], I received the package you sent me yesterday!

Here's a high level overview of what I've done ...  I extended the line [member=21249]RKA[/member] drew underneath the existing mortises to go across the entire back piece, added a line to the opposite mating face, the other end of the top, and other end for sag measurement.  I spread the pieces of wood open, keeping their bottoms on the table as I've been doing all along, used the Seneca adapter with 10mm bit to plunge new holes in both pieces, and finally joined them together using the Domino which was sent.

RKA's Domino assembled and sitting on the MFT
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My line added to the Top Right
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Clamped and ready, line extended
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Line added to the front piece
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Plunging the back piece on it's Right end
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Mortise looks great
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Front piece clamped and ready
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Plunging the front piece on it's Left end
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Mortise looks great
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Assembled at the end I've plunged using the same Domino you used and slightly opened up to confirm this is my plunge
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My Domino ... close enough to perfect!!  But keep reading...
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When holding by the back piece alone, the front piece drops by about 5.5 mm.
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When holding by the front piece alone, the back piece drops by about 13 mm.
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When doing the same with RKA's Domino, the distance of sag is 8 mm both ways.
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[Bugsysiegals]

An important thing I noticed was how much looser the joint was on this material than the plywood so I decided to try one of my 10 mm Domino's to determine whether it was the Domino or difference in wood.  To my surprise my Domino was much more snug than RKA's.  Images below show the difference in Diameter as well as color of material.

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My Domino's came from this kit which remains in sealed bags, within the systainer, in a dehumidified basement wood shop.
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Due to the difference of fit, I've repeated this exercise with my plywood using RKA's Domino stock and my own.  His Domino stock allows the plywood to sit flush on the table whereas mine has a 5.5 mm gap as shown throughout this thread and when pushing down to become flush you can hear wood fibers beginning to snap.  This is my concern since plywood is inconsistent with voids, etc. and with thin stock could even break entirely.  Based on the measurements, my Domino has more skew than RKA's, perhaps within spec but not sure since Festool hasn't advised, and there's difference in Domino tenon thickness at work here.

I'll follow up with pictures shortly of the plywood experiment ...

 

[RKA]

I'm scratching my head here.  It would seem like your domino might be a little more skewed but still perfectly acceptable, but the 10mm domino stock you have is unusually thicker?  Can you try again using thicker scraps of wood and the 12mm tenons I sent?  At least to see if the results are acceptable?

You could try the microwave trick on your 10mm tenons.  I know you said it's dehumidified in the basement, but it's an easy thing to try.  I can tell you that 10mm tenon is old.  I never use them, so those came with the 4-10mm assortment set I got ~6 years ago?

 

[Bugsysiegals]

I'm scratching my head here.  It would seem like your domino might be a little more skewed but still perfectly acceptable, but the 10mm domino stock you have is unusually thicker?  Can you try again using thicker scraps of wood and the 12mm tenons I sent?  At least to see if the results are acceptable?

You could try the microwave trick on your 10mm tenons.  I know you said it's dehumidified in the basement, but it's an easy thing to try.  I can tell you that 10mm tenon is old.  I never use them, so those came with the 4-10mm assortment set I got ~6 years ago?

With your Domino, it's definitely acceptable on the wood you provided and the plywood as well but with my stock it's skewed on both.  Since your wood is solid it's easy enough to bend into place but with thin stock I'm definitely concerned the pressure will cause issue.  I was hoping [member=57769]TylerC[/member] could elaborate on the acceptable tolerance but seems he's leaving Festool. Perhaps [member=101]Festool USA[/member] can clarify?

Would you recommend flipping the boards you provided inside out and using the 12 mm cutter?

 

[rmhinden]

My Domino ... close enough to perfect!!  But keep reading...
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When holding by the back piece alone, the front piece drops by about 5.5 mm.
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When holding by the front piece alone, the back piece drops by about 13 mm.
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Could you explain what you are doing in these last two pictures?  Is there only one domino connecting the boards at the far end?

What happens if you put a domino at each end and one in the middle?

I just did a test with my XL.  Made one 8mm mortice near each end of a short board.  When I inserted only one domino, I and tried to move the other end, I did get a small amount of deflection.  When I added the domino at the other end, I got none.

Bob

 

[Bugsysiegals]

My Domino ... close enough to perfect!!  But keep reading...
View attachment 13

When holding by the back piece alone, the front piece drops by about 5.5 mm.
View attachment 14

When holding by the front piece alone, the back piece drops by about 13 mm.
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Could you explain what you are doing in these last two pictures?  Is there only one domino connecting the boards at the far end?

What happens if you put a domino at each end and one in the middle?

I just did a test with my XL.  Made one 8mm mortice near each end of a short board.  When I inserted only one domino, I and tried to move the other end, I did get a small amount of deflection.  When I added the domino at the other end, I got none.

Bob

I was holding one piece and allowing the other to sag by it's weight alone.  There's a few things this shows ... the evenness of the joint RKA made versus mine (8/8 versus 5.5/13), and also to show whether the weight alone allows the back piece to fall below the front piece (mine have always stood in the air and required pressure to close the ~4-6 mm gap).

 

[Bugsysiegals]

I'm scratching my head here.  It would seem like your domino might be a little more skewed but still perfectly acceptable, but the 10mm domino stock you have is unusually thicker?  Can you try again using thicker scraps of wood and the 12mm tenons I sent?  At least to see if the results are acceptable?

You could try the microwave trick on your 10mm tenons.  I know you said it's dehumidified in the basement, but it's an easy thing to try.  I can tell you that 10mm tenon is old.  I never use them, so those came with the 4-10mm assortment set I got ~6 years ago?

I'm not familiar with the microwave trick and will have to google it.

I tried the 12 mm Domino in the stock you sent and the while the front piece laid perfectly flat on the MFT the back piece was raised into the air 4.5 mm.  It seems I will not get an offical response from Festool here and will need to call them to find out what they consider acceptable.

I've several shop cabinets waiting to be assembled, way more after that needing to be built, and decided to test the XL on an actual cabinet since worst case it'll be in my shop.  I made several mistakes, learned a few things, and now have to figure out how to avoid making some of these same mistakes in the future.

My first mistake involved using the 6 flexible tabs on the front of the Domino to cut the first mortise holes on each corner.  I used the first tab for the sides going front to back to avoid having a Domino 37mm from the edge where drawer glides or shelf pin holes are located and the 2nd tab for all the other holes.  I wasn't paying enough attention, got the 2nd tab over the top of the material, aligned the 3rd tab instead, and plunged the hole!  I did this 3 times and learned the importance of slowing down to ensure the first holes are exact. 

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My second mistake is a result of the first.  I used the wings which attach to reference off previous holes in order to space out the Domino's.  Since the first hole on the edge banding was different than the plywood, the bottom of the back does not line up and needs to be re-done!

The back right corner, aligned properly, but unfortunately the bad corner was the one everything in between was referenced from.
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My third sort of mistake was the setting on the extension wing.  After plunging the corner holes, I measured the distance between them, counted how many Domino's I'd like, subtracted 20mm x the # of Domino's, and divided by the # of Domino's + 1 to determine the spacing between Domino's.  I set the wing to this value and when I got to the other end, it wasn't spaced out evenly.  Afterwards I discovered the number on the wing takes you to the center of the Domino, not the edge, and I should've added +10mm for the small mortise setting ... lesson learned!

My fourth "almost" mistake was that while referencing with the extension wing, I went top to bottom on one side of the back but bottom to top on the other side.  Luckily I checked before plunging the sides and referenced them in the same way.  I've decided it best to label the parts with back, front, top, bottom and move alphabetically when doing this.  For example, Left to Right, Bottom to Top, Back to Front, etc. ... hopefully this will form a good process which avoids future mistakes.

My fifth and final mistake was that I was switching between plunging edge banding (15mm) and plywood (25mm) but forgot to switch back to 15mm and plunged right through the edge banding on one hole.  I'd caught myself twice before this so it could've been worse but I need a better process so I don't forget this again.  At least it's in a back corner on the bottom but now I'm wondering if I cut all back 4 corners or more and make it uniform, pound it in a bit and use glue and Walnut shavings/dust to fill in the void, etc.  I was able to laugh about the mistake as this is only a shop cabinet but I need to figure this out before it's an important cabinet.  I'm considering switching from 6x40 to 5x30 Domino which would then always be 15mm plunge and perhaps less likely to crack anything while under pressure from the skew ... thoughts? 

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Mistakes aside, I used the small setting on all mortises and was able to assemble the sides to the bottom but it did require I reach in between and put some pressure on a few Domino's.  After disassembly and re-assembly, I think it went together slightly easier the second time around which is a good sign.  I've to re-plunge the bottom back plywood before it will go together but otherwise everything seems to be good so far.  I should be able to get to the stretchers/partition tonight which is what I'm really interested to see.  The stetchers are 100mm wide ... should I use 2 Domino's or Kreg screws?  For the partition, I assume I should determine the distance from the top/bottom of the mortises I'm making in the plywood, calculate the offset, and clamp a straight edge that offset away from the center and butt the bottom of the XL to it?  FWIW - I'm not using the Seneca plate as it really messed up using the line for alignment; however, I've only used the pins/extension wing so far.  That said, if this is the method most people use, and perhaps the Seneca plate allows better centering of material, then perhaps I should add it back on?

All that said, because of the way this cabinet is built with Domino's in different directions, I'll have to assemble sides and stretchers to the partition first, slide that assembly onto the back, and then assemble the tops/bottoms.  I'm not certain how I can do this all quickly, especially while adding glue, and having to fiddle with the Domino's, perhaps I'm using to many Domino's?  If using Domino's, I could use the larger setting for the Domino's in the middle of the panels but that doesn't seem very structural and I've ready many who do not recommend?  Should I have incorporated dado's in some of this instead?

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[Bugsysiegals]

FWIW - I spoke with Erik at Festool and he indicated the XL 700 is not meant for plywood.  I indicated irrelevant of the plywood I receive the same results on larger wood but he indicated the skew with a single Domino means nothing and asked if I'm able to join the other end with another Domino.  I can join the other end of plywood, albeit under some stress, but since the XL is not meant for plywood, I'd only have recourse if this was happening with a DF 500.  That said, case closed, I'm moving on with my projects.

 

[ChuckM]

Using the DF700 on sheet goods has been discussed before, including here:http://festoolownersgroup.com/festool-how-to/domino-700-and-sheet-goods/

 

[ChuckM]

Snip.
I'm not familiar with the microwave trick and will have to google it.

Put the dominoes on a coffee filter or paper towel, and microwave them for 5 to 20 seconds (depending on the power (Watt) of your microwave and the number of dominoes you put!). Transfer the dominoes (they can be hot [eek]) to a small pail or container, and use them right away for the glue-up (you can reuse the filter or towel for the next batch after the moisture on it is gone).