New Dowel Jig - raises Domino comparisons in my mind
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Michael Kellough
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[member=67313]WillAdams[/member] The PROXXON precision drill press is very small.
Cheese
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Ya, I had no idea what the Bridge City Tool Works DJ-3 was so I googled it. It looked over-hyped at first but then it started to make sense for those folks that are woodworkers only and never dabble in metals. And then I read further and the basic marketing ploy degenerated into a you don't need a drill press if you purchase this.
That was a bridge too far. I think it's a really neat tool and has a lot of versatility. The drill bushings in particular strike a warm chord because of their inherent accuracy. I'm a big fan of precision drill bushings. [smile]
However, a drill press will give you additional capabilities when drilling metals or large timbers. The drill press will also accept hole saws and Forstner bits.
I think they need to be a bit more honest in their presentation. If this item was around $250 or so, I'd consider it for those every once-in-a-while needs.
That was a bridge too far. I think it's a really neat tool and has a lot of versatility. The drill bushings in particular strike a warm chord because of their inherent accuracy. I'm a big fan of precision drill bushings. [smile]
However, a drill press will give you additional capabilities when drilling metals or large timbers. The drill press will also accept hole saws and Forstner bits.
I think they need to be a bit more honest in their presentation. If this item was around $250 or so, I'd consider it for those every once-in-a-while needs.
luvmytoolz
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Michael Kellough said:
Proxxon gear is beautifully made, and I have many, but the thing that really lets them down in my opinion is the 50% duty cycle, for this model unless it's changed it's 10/min on-10/min off.
mino
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I believe ALL these dowel*** comparisons talking/looking on "alternating" the DOMINO have it the wrong way.
The DOMINO is the efficiency play alternative to most of the uses cases of all those jigs/tools, not the other way. These jigs existed for millenia in one form or other. Nothing really new about dowels in the last 100 years or so.
With dowells, no matter the tool/jig, you can be more efficient. You can also be more flexible. But not in one and the same tool/jig.
To me this is like with the TPC 18 and the PDC 18/4 before that. Those are the drills 99% people should buy as their first drill. That is how you get the most value out of it. Yet, almost no one does that ... Same with the DOMINO.
Putting my 25-years tool wisdom into one sentence:
First buy versatile tools, only then go for specific niche usage tools, knowing in which areas those niche tools are worth it for you.
Now my thinking is simple:
Would I buy tool XYZ had I already had a universal tool ABC? Yes => get XYZ even before ABC. No ? Save up for ABC first.*
No offence meant, but anyone suggesting Proxxon micro-tools as general use tools for woodworking should go and read their documentation first.
Their tools are great for home/hobby use in an appartment as they are compact and one can do a piece and can take the time-hit doing it gradually. But that is about it.
I absolutely love their mini-router stand with 3-axis table. It is absolutely wonderfull for kids or some very small/rare work.
*) Assumes one is not making a living out of the tool *and* is not budget constrained *plus* time-constrained on a contract. In such cases there is no decision to make anyway.
The DOMINO is the efficiency play alternative to most of the uses cases of all those jigs/tools, not the other way. These jigs existed for millenia in one form or other. Nothing really new about dowels in the last 100 years or so.
With dowells, no matter the tool/jig, you can be more efficient. You can also be more flexible. But not in one and the same tool/jig.
To me this is like with the TPC 18 and the PDC 18/4 before that. Those are the drills 99% people should buy as their first drill. That is how you get the most value out of it. Yet, almost no one does that ... Same with the DOMINO.
Putting my 25-years tool wisdom into one sentence:
First buy versatile tools, only then go for specific niche usage tools, knowing in which areas those niche tools are worth it for you.
Now my thinking is simple:
Would I buy tool XYZ had I already had a universal tool ABC? Yes => get XYZ even before ABC. No ? Save up for ABC first.*
Yep, they are for making jewelry and models, not for general woodworking.luvmytoolz said:
No offence meant, but anyone suggesting Proxxon micro-tools as general use tools for woodworking should go and read their documentation first.
Their tools are great for home/hobby use in an appartment as they are compact and one can do a piece and can take the time-hit doing it gradually. But that is about it.
I absolutely love their mini-router stand with 3-axis table. It is absolutely wonderfull for kids or some very small/rare work.
*) Assumes one is not making a living out of the tool *and* is not budget constrained *plus* time-constrained on a contract. In such cases there is no decision to make anyway.
Michael Kellough
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[member=61254]mino[/member] seems good for this,
(my current need is to drill small holes for hinges in boxes and lids)
(my current need is to drill small holes for hinges in boxes and lids)
luvmytoolz
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Michael Kellough said:
One of the better small Asian PCB bench drills would be better in almost all regards I reckon.
While my work is quite small scale, the Proxon is a bit small even for my needs (I sadly burned up a similar hobbyist drill press early on when I had a bit more space).
Yes, a dedicated drill press would be good for certain tasks --- if I had the room --- I have to set up a small folding workbench for my hand-cranked drill press, but that has other problems in terms of workholding.
The appeal of the DJ-3 is the flexibility and portability/compact storage (but obviously not enough to overcome the price this go around --- maybe next time).
Yes, a dedicated drill press would be good for certain tasks --- if I had the room --- I have to set up a small folding workbench for my hand-cranked drill press, but that has other problems in terms of workholding.
The appeal of the DJ-3 is the flexibility and portability/compact storage (but obviously not enough to overcome the price this go around --- maybe next time).
Crazyraceguy
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[member=61254]mino[/member] I get what you mean, and your disclaimer is right-on too.
In a commercial situation, I find that having tools for specific jobs, is far more efficient. Then keeping a very versatile/adaptable tool as a back-up or alternate can get you through surprises.
Again, you're right. It takes a while to figure out what you really need/use.
The problem is that this is very complicated. That versatile/universal tool is likely more expensive.
As an example, routers. If all you ever do is edge treatments, a "kit" of a plunge base and fixed base, is unnecessary and expensive but if you do need both bases, having only one motor (and swapping)is an unnecessary chore. You would have been better off with two separate units, in the first place. Then, if you but a second fixed base machine, you still have that extra base, from the kit. (and the added expense)
For me, the Domino is a no-brainer, but I didn't own one until 2015. Most of that time, I was not aware of it though. Before that, biscuits, dowels or router-cut loose tenons did the job. The Domino is so much faster/easier that, someone who is doing it for a living, is very much missing out, without one.
In a commercial situation, I find that having tools for specific jobs, is far more efficient. Then keeping a very versatile/adaptable tool as a back-up or alternate can get you through surprises.
Again, you're right. It takes a while to figure out what you really need/use.
The problem is that this is very complicated. That versatile/universal tool is likely more expensive.
As an example, routers. If all you ever do is edge treatments, a "kit" of a plunge base and fixed base, is unnecessary and expensive but if you do need both bases, having only one motor (and swapping)is an unnecessary chore. You would have been better off with two separate units, in the first place. Then, if you but a second fixed base machine, you still have that extra base, from the kit. (and the added expense)
For me, the Domino is a no-brainer, but I didn't own one until 2015. Most of that time, I was not aware of it though. Before that, biscuits, dowels or router-cut loose tenons did the job. The Domino is so much faster/easier that, someone who is doing it for a living, is very much missing out, without one.
The same can be said of any hobbyists who value time and effort over the difference of one grand or a grand and a half for the whole duration of their woodworking journey. I find that sticking to as few machines or tools as possible helps one master one's tools and techniques. I sold my mortiser, biscuit joiner and Leigh dovetail jig soon after I used my DF500 with efficiency.Crazyraceguy said:
I still have my dowel jig and still cut dovetails by hand when the projects call for their use. Like you, I didn't know about the DF till 2013. It has been giving me, like, the equivalent of twice more active life in the shop (compared to using the router/jig, cutting dadoes, rabbets, drilling dowel holes, re-learning the Leigh jig every time I used it....).
I finished the corner shelf unit (posted in another thread) practically in one day, including cutting the three triangular pieces. But most importantly, it came out spot on even though I had never done a corner unit before (I've seen Norm Abram's and wanted to try it). So, I suppose I can't cheat death, but I may be able to cheat some more productive years in my shop with the DF500.
Cheese
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WillAdams said:
Could you build a nest to fixture the parts and then drill the items with the small Woodpeckers Auto-Line drill guide fastened to the nest surface?
Here's a similar nest for producing several HVAC vents. It's really just a simple fixture that excels at part holding and dimensional repeatability.
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Michael Kellough
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[member=57948]ChuckS[/member] About twenty years ago I made a corner cabinet in the middle of sets of built-in shelves and cabinets.
It was my first corner cabinet too and the Domino didn’t exist yet (or if it did I didn’t have it).
An additional complication was that the sides of the corner cabinet would also be the sides of the adjacent shelving units so getting the corner cabinet right was critical.
Dry biscuits didn’t/don’t have enough hold-it-togetherness for test fitting so I used dowels.
The Lamello Zeta is made for this kind of problem but didn’t have that either.
I am very good at layout and marking but as woodbutcherbower says, it’s perfect or it isn’t.
So I bought a dowel template from the Festool VS600 dovetail jig, which did exist back then.
Used the template in the VS 600 to put holes in the ends of the corner shelves and used the template by itself, clamped to the cabinet sides, with the OF 1000 and the router template that fit the dowel template.
With the template I was able to drill holes precisely (Festool 8mm drilling bit for the router) and the cabinet came out as designed. If I can find the photos I shot on the Kodak DC 4800 I’ll post a few.
It was my first corner cabinet too and the Domino didn’t exist yet (or if it did I didn’t have it).
An additional complication was that the sides of the corner cabinet would also be the sides of the adjacent shelving units so getting the corner cabinet right was critical.
Dry biscuits didn’t/don’t have enough hold-it-togetherness for test fitting so I used dowels.
The Lamello Zeta is made for this kind of problem but didn’t have that either.
I am very good at layout and marking but as woodbutcherbower says, it’s perfect or it isn’t.
So I bought a dowel template from the Festool VS600 dovetail jig, which did exist back then.
Used the template in the VS 600 to put holes in the ends of the corner shelves and used the template by itself, clamped to the cabinet sides, with the OF 1000 and the router template that fit the dowel template.
With the template I was able to drill holes precisely (Festool 8mm drilling bit for the router) and the cabinet came out as designed. If I can find the photos I shot on the Kodak DC 4800 I’ll post a few.
That sounds interesting.
If I'm correct, Norm used dadoes/rabbets for his corner cupboard.
Speaking of strength, some people seem to worry about loose tenons because they aren't as strong as dowels. I haven't had a single joint failure with anything I've built in ply, softwood and hardwood with dominoes including 4mm tenons. My gut feeling is that if glue is stronger than wood, then tenons are as strong as glue (or stronger). At least that's my empirical thinking (not counting hand-cut joints, almost everything I've built since 2013 relies on the dominoes to hold them together).
If I'm correct, Norm used dadoes/rabbets for his corner cupboard.
Speaking of strength, some people seem to worry about loose tenons because they aren't as strong as dowels. I haven't had a single joint failure with anything I've built in ply, softwood and hardwood with dominoes including 4mm tenons. My gut feeling is that if glue is stronger than wood, then tenons are as strong as glue (or stronger). At least that's my empirical thinking (not counting hand-cut joints, almost everything I've built since 2013 relies on the dominoes to hold them together).
smorgasbord
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Not only have tools changed over the years, how tools are made has changed.
When I started woodworking, one "pro tip" was to not check try squares by placing one inside the other, because with the traditional try squares, only the two inside edges were made/tested square. I still cringe every time I see people place the inside of their square's handle against an edge and then scribe/mark using the outside of the blade. But today, with modern CNC manufacturing, it probably is true that the square is "pretty square" from inside to outside.
We this in the Bridge City Tools offerings. A number of their newer tools are revised versions of the originals, but are better due to available manufacturing techniques. Woodpeckers, for instance, does both CNC machining combined with optical quality control. In the old days, Starrett had a guy sitting in a dark room with a backlight to test/calibrate squares against their reference. Sticking to the old ways of doing things is probably why Starrett got sold.
Not in the dowels themselves, but certainly in the jigging. A Mafell duo-doweler brings all sorts accuracy, repeatability while maintaining a great degree of flexibility to doweling. And even the stand-alone doweling jigs of today are quite different than what was available when I started 40 years ago, and even different/better than "only" 20 years ago. Accurate bushings, linear bearings, etc. are all better and cheaper.
Even materials have changed. High speed steel was what Sears sold for router bits. Fine Woodworking later talked about the advantages of carbide tipped bits. Today we not only have solid carbide bits, but also spiral cutting patterns and bits that use replaceable carbide inserts because they can manufacture the shanks more easily and accurately.
For mortise and tenons, home woodworkers would lust after hollow chisel mortisers, and futz around with attachments to do the same on drill presses. Plunge routers were not widely available in the 1980s.
When I see that fixture and that you've made multiples, I think to my home CNC milling those while I sanded/finished the previous ones.
Can't really argue with that, but it's not so black and white as "versatile" vs "niche" tools. Let's look at some doweling options (not necessarily in order):
1) Hand drill and drill bit with piece of tape. Up to your skill to drill in right spot and angle, and tape for depth.
2) Use drill centers to mark the mating piece starting location.
3) Add a solid drill guide block. Use markings on side for location, guide block keeps you vertical.
4) Add an adjustable drill guide block. The kind that auto-centers. My 20+ year old version has specific holes for different size holes, today's versions have replaceable guide bushings.
5) Add a portable drill guide. The kind with two rods and linear bearings. Sort of like a mini-drill press. Nice for when you're drilling in the middle of boards too wide for your drill press's throat clearance. Today's versions often have adjustable angles and distance rod stops.
6) Get a drill press.
7) Add a fence to your drill press.
8 ) Get something like the Cam-A-Line guide that has a fence, adjustable to lock in spacing, distance rods for indexing, and replaceable bushings for different size dowels.
9) A Mafell Duo-Doweller. A domino-like machine for dowels.
10) A Line Boring machine (very niche)
11) A CNC router - small or large, home or professional
12) A Shaper Origin with workstation
So, is a Shaper Origin a "niche" machine, or is it really a "versatile" machine? I'd argue it's more the latter, with a high price that many home woodworkers aren't ready to spend.
Which brings me back my original post here. For woodworkers doing furniture and the like (as opposed to kitchen cabinets), the Cam-A-Line jig seems to me a good lower-cost choice for joints than a Domino. Sure the Domino is faster to setup and use, and the overlap in what they each can do is not 100%, but I'll bet that many (not all) home woodworkers might find better uses for the $1000 in savings.
When I started woodworking, one "pro tip" was to not check try squares by placing one inside the other, because with the traditional try squares, only the two inside edges were made/tested square. I still cringe every time I see people place the inside of their square's handle against an edge and then scribe/mark using the outside of the blade. But today, with modern CNC manufacturing, it probably is true that the square is "pretty square" from inside to outside.
We this in the Bridge City Tools offerings. A number of their newer tools are revised versions of the originals, but are better due to available manufacturing techniques. Woodpeckers, for instance, does both CNC machining combined with optical quality control. In the old days, Starrett had a guy sitting in a dark room with a backlight to test/calibrate squares against their reference. Sticking to the old ways of doing things is probably why Starrett got sold.
mino said:
Not in the dowels themselves, but certainly in the jigging. A Mafell duo-doweler brings all sorts accuracy, repeatability while maintaining a great degree of flexibility to doweling. And even the stand-alone doweling jigs of today are quite different than what was available when I started 40 years ago, and even different/better than "only" 20 years ago. Accurate bushings, linear bearings, etc. are all better and cheaper.
Even materials have changed. High speed steel was what Sears sold for router bits. Fine Woodworking later talked about the advantages of carbide tipped bits. Today we not only have solid carbide bits, but also spiral cutting patterns and bits that use replaceable carbide inserts because they can manufacture the shanks more easily and accurately.
For mortise and tenons, home woodworkers would lust after hollow chisel mortisers, and futz around with attachments to do the same on drill presses. Plunge routers were not widely available in the 1980s.
Cheese said:
When I see that fixture and that you've made multiples, I think to my home CNC milling those while I sanded/finished the previous ones.
mino said:
Can't really argue with that, but it's not so black and white as "versatile" vs "niche" tools. Let's look at some doweling options (not necessarily in order):
1) Hand drill and drill bit with piece of tape. Up to your skill to drill in right spot and angle, and tape for depth.
2) Use drill centers to mark the mating piece starting location.
3) Add a solid drill guide block. Use markings on side for location, guide block keeps you vertical.
4) Add an adjustable drill guide block. The kind that auto-centers. My 20+ year old version has specific holes for different size holes, today's versions have replaceable guide bushings.
5) Add a portable drill guide. The kind with two rods and linear bearings. Sort of like a mini-drill press. Nice for when you're drilling in the middle of boards too wide for your drill press's throat clearance. Today's versions often have adjustable angles and distance rod stops.
6) Get a drill press.
7) Add a fence to your drill press.
8 ) Get something like the Cam-A-Line guide that has a fence, adjustable to lock in spacing, distance rods for indexing, and replaceable bushings for different size dowels.
9) A Mafell Duo-Doweller. A domino-like machine for dowels.
10) A Line Boring machine (very niche)
11) A CNC router - small or large, home or professional
12) A Shaper Origin with workstation
So, is a Shaper Origin a "niche" machine, or is it really a "versatile" machine? I'd argue it's more the latter, with a high price that many home woodworkers aren't ready to spend.
Which brings me back my original post here. For woodworkers doing furniture and the like (as opposed to kitchen cabinets), the Cam-A-Line jig seems to me a good lower-cost choice for joints than a Domino. Sure the Domino is faster to setup and use, and the overlap in what they each can do is not 100%, but I'll bet that many (not all) home woodworkers might find better uses for the $1000 in savings.
mino
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And .. you stayed within the dowels "niche". 
My point was the dowels being a niche as a whole category in the wider sense.
What is a dowel ? A (too) precise standard sized round tennon requirding precise placement.
That, on itself, means either a need for absolute precision (Mafell costs as much for a reason) OR acceptence of imperfectly positioned joints. In some cases, it actualy means the pieces cannot be put together as the holes do not line up ...
Compared to this a loose tenon offers a fundamentally more flexible solution. No matter how good the tooling, dowel will allways be the more-specific solution compared to a loose tenon.
And yes.
I did dowelling with a drill. With a router, with a router and LR32 and like 3 different jigs some I still have. I still think that for strength in cabinetry a full line of LR32 dowels really cannot be beat. But would never consider using dowels as "flexible" or even approaching "universal" approach. Versatile, yes. If you have the time (like lots of it) in most joints where a loose tenon works dowels will. Mostly for a higher production cost though - unless series production with a dedicated jig is used.
Agree with most points, just not with the message. To me dowells are not the optimal method of choice* for those who are not pros that know what they are doing. And pros already have these answers anyway.
*to invest in buying expensive jigs
My point was the dowels being a niche as a whole category in the wider sense.
What is a dowel ? A (too) precise standard sized round tennon requirding precise placement.
That, on itself, means either a need for absolute precision (Mafell costs as much for a reason) OR acceptence of imperfectly positioned joints. In some cases, it actualy means the pieces cannot be put together as the holes do not line up ...
Compared to this a loose tenon offers a fundamentally more flexible solution. No matter how good the tooling, dowel will allways be the more-specific solution compared to a loose tenon.
And yes.
I did dowelling with a drill. With a router, with a router and LR32 and like 3 different jigs some I still have. I still think that for strength in cabinetry a full line of LR32 dowels really cannot be beat. But would never consider using dowels as "flexible" or even approaching "universal" approach. Versatile, yes. If you have the time (like lots of it) in most joints where a loose tenon works dowels will. Mostly for a higher production cost though - unless series production with a dedicated jig is used.
Agree with most points, just not with the message. To me dowells are not the optimal method of choice* for those who are not pros that know what they are doing. And pros already have these answers anyway.
*to invest in buying expensive jigs
Dowels are a niche in small production shops only. For large production shops (mostly kitchen cabinets), dowel drilling is fully automated and much faster than anything that Mafel or Festool has ever produced.
And, logically stronger as they place far more dowels than a domino user would place dominoes.
I believe the machinery is set up to drill on the same centers as we use for shelf pins. So quite a lot of dowels on a base cabinet.
It is also the reason that dovetail joints will never disappear. There are automated machines that cut perfect mating parts with a single setup. And since most manufacturers only produce 3 or 4 different height drawers, they are able to batch cut and machine drawers. Also faster than a domino machine.
I used to make drip coffee devices in batches as gifts. I also used dovetails.
Recently, I wanted to only produce one. I thought that dowels would be faster. The answer is: Probably not. I am fairly certain that even with the setup of the dovetail jigs, it would have been quicker than the dowel-assembled drip coffee maker.
I have two Porter Cable dovetail jigs. One used to be setup all the time for the tails, and the other for the pins. I have two P-C 690 routers that were always set to make dovetail joints.
All I had to do was chop the pieces to length and walk over the the router station. No setup. Always perfect. But it has been a long time since I have made drawers and I broke down the setup. I wish I had not. I may set it up again.
And, logically stronger as they place far more dowels than a domino user would place dominoes.
I believe the machinery is set up to drill on the same centers as we use for shelf pins. So quite a lot of dowels on a base cabinet.
It is also the reason that dovetail joints will never disappear. There are automated machines that cut perfect mating parts with a single setup. And since most manufacturers only produce 3 or 4 different height drawers, they are able to batch cut and machine drawers. Also faster than a domino machine.
I used to make drip coffee devices in batches as gifts. I also used dovetails.
Recently, I wanted to only produce one. I thought that dowels would be faster. The answer is: Probably not. I am fairly certain that even with the setup of the dovetail jigs, it would have been quicker than the dowel-assembled drip coffee maker.
I have two Porter Cable dovetail jigs. One used to be setup all the time for the tails, and the other for the pins. I have two P-C 690 routers that were always set to make dovetail joints.
All I had to do was chop the pieces to length and walk over the the router station. No setup. Always perfect. But it has been a long time since I have made drawers and I broke down the setup. I wish I had not. I may set it up again.
smorgasbord
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mino said:
You were talking "versatile" versus "niche," now you're talking "specific?" That's misusing that word. Neither dowel nor domino is more "specific" than the other.
We're really just talking degrees of freedom, more of which come with a reduction in strength.
The dowel fixes the joint in two directions.
The domino fixes the joint in one directio, or two directions if you use tight for both sides.
Numerous tests have shown dowels are stronger most of the time, at least where the joint isn't wide enough for two dominos but is for two or more dowels.
For things like miter joints, fixing the joint in both directions helps ease glue up. That's always true with dowels and can be true for dominos. It's arguable whether using the pins/paddles is easier/harder than using the stop rod in the Cam-A-Line drilling guide - I go for easier, but less flexible for smaller joints (also ironically, the larger DF700 has a closer 20mm paddle than the DF500's 37mm paddle).
mino said:
The domino, like the biscuit jointer before it, uses a fence or baseplate reference to fix that one degree. Many doweling jigs also have fences (sometimes self-centering) which achieves that as well. Since decent biscuit jointers are well under $200 today, you don't have to spend an order of magnitude more to get that precision. One company did try to clone the Mafell, but unfortunately didn't quite get there (according to Peter Milard).
And with the Cam-A-Line and other doweling jigs with side distance roads (Banggood has a few under $100), you get the precision you need for fix the dowels where you need them. Not as convenient/fast as dominos, but for home woodworkers probably just fine.
One place the domino excels is that the depth is easily changeable. With dowel jigs you're probably moving depth stops on the drill bit versus sliding a thing without tools on the domino. Of course, that doesn't remind you that you need to do so, as many domino users have found out....
