New DTS 400 REQ Plus purchase - Disappointing

[Teakdust]

I run a marine carpentry shop in Annapolis, Maryland. I needed a detail sander to get into the tight corners that every boat has an abundence of. After much research, I purchased the new DTS 400 REQ Plus. All the reveiws I had read or watched on YouTube indicated that the sander came standard with a dust collection bag/housing. Although I use a vacuum 98% of the time, there are occasions when I can't. So this was a big consideration in my decision. When I got it home I discovered that the bag/housing was not in the systainer. I checked the instruction manual. On page six it says it's standard. So I called the dealer. He tells me it's an optional purchase. I mention that it's standard in Europe. He acknowledges that but says it's not in the US. I read the page from the Festool manual to him saying it's standard. He says it's printed for the European market. All in all, I'm pretty annoyed. I had a hard time justifiying a $260.00 sander on a working carpenter's budget. Charging me $30 extra for a part that is supposed to be included is  insulting. I think I'm just going to return the whole thing.

Kevin Reed - Annapolis Harbor Boatyard

 

[copcarcollector]

First off, welcome to the fog- sorry your first post is about being disappointed, but I do understand your frustration. Festool does a poor job describing exactly what is included with each product, and when the scope of delivery changes, they don't update their info either.

Maybe a dealer like Shane can chime in and at least confirm what your dealer told you about the current accessories included with this sander

 

[Teakdust]

Apparently, a rudimentary dust bag was standard in the US market on the prior DTS 400 RE model. I have a Domino XL that came clearly labeled with with was included. No surprises there. It just seems petty in this case. How much could it cost to include? I thought that perhaps the Euro bag might not meet UL export standards, but the collector is offered in the Festool US online store. So that's not an issue. It just triggered a lot of bitter, buyer's remorse that could easily have been avoided.

Kevin Reed - Annapolis Harbor Boatyard

First off, welcome to the fog- sorry your first post is about being disappointed, but I do understand your frustration. Festool does a poor job describing exactly what is included with each product, and when the scope of delivery changes, they don't update their info either.

Maybe a dealer like Shane can chime in and at least confirm what your dealer told you about the current accessories included with this sander

 

[Shane Holland]

Maybe a dealer like Shane can chime in and at least confirm what your dealer told you about the current accessories included with this sander

Welcome to the forum. Sorry to hear that you were misinformed about the dust bag being included in the U.S. Festool's scope of delivery does sometimes vary from country to country. It is true that it's included in European markets. It is not included in the US/Canada.

The reason that it isn't included here is due to potential liability issues with RRP and lead abatement, I believe.

On our website here's what we have to say about it...

Festool’s new DTS 400 REQ sander offers many improvements over its predecessor including a more powerful motor, a new included pad protector, a locking dust port and optional reusable dust bag, and an improved soft grip coating.

We also have a list of the components included with the sander...

(1) Plug-it Power Cord
(1) StickFix Sanding Pad
(1) Clean-Tec bayonet-style dust port to retrofit older hoses
(1) T-Loc Systainer 2

Shane

 

[Teakdust]

So offering it as an optional purchase negates, "potential liability issues with RRP and lead abatement"?

The Festool website you cite also provided me with the DTS 400 REQ instruction .PDF that I read throughly before making the purchase. It also stated that the dust bag was included.

Maybe a dealer like Shane can chime in and at least confirm what your dealer told you about the current accessories included with this sander

Welcome to the forum. Sorry to hear that you were misinformed about the dust bag being included in the U.S. Festool's scope of delivery does sometimes vary from country to country. It is true that its included in European markets. It is not included in the US/Canada.

The reason that it isn't included here is due to potential liability issues with RRP and lead abatement, I believe.

On our website here's what we have to say about it...

Festool’s new DTS 400 REQ sander offers many improvements over its predecessor including a more powerful motor, a new included pad protector, a locking dust port and optional reusable dust bag, and an improved soft grip coating.

We also have a list of the components included with the sander...

(1) Plug-it Power Cord
(1) StickFix Sanding Pad
(1) Clean-Tec bayonet-style dust port to retrofit older hoses
(1) T-Loc Systainer 2

Shane

 

[Shane Holland]

Kevin,

I'm just sharing information as requested by another forum member.

I'm citing festoolproducts.com and toolnut.com, which are our websites. I work for The Tool Nut, which is an authorized Festool dealer. There are no links to manual for the DTS 400 on our website. The reason I cited our website is to show that we list this information to try to provide full and accurate information to our shoppers to prevent these types of issues.

Festool offers a 30-day guarantee on all tools. If you're unsatisfied with your purchase for any reason, you can exchange your tool for another or return it for a refund.

If you bought your sander from The Tool Nut, please feel free to contact me directly at shane@toolnut.com and I'll help resolve this for you.

Shane

 

[McNally Family]

I run a marine carpentry shop in Annapolis, Maryland. I needed a detail sander to get into the tight corners that every boat has an abundence of. After much research, I purchased the new DTS 400 REQ Plus. All the reveiws I had read or watched on YouTube indicated that the sander came standard with a dust collection bag/housing. Although I use a vacuum 98% of the time, there are occasions when I can't. So this was a big consideration in my decision. When I got it home I discovered that the bag/housing was not in the systainer. I checked the instruction manual. On page six it says it's standard. So I called the dealer. He tells me it's an optional purchase. I mention that it's standard in Europe. He acknowledges that but says it's not in the US. I read the page from the Festool manual to him saying it's standard. He says it's printed for the European market. All in all, I'm pretty annoyed. I had a hard time justifiying a $260.00 sander on a working carpenter's budget. Charging me $30 extra for a part that is supposed to be included is  insulting. I think I'm just going to return the whole thing.

Kevin Reed - Annapolis Harbor Boatyard

I don't know how you feel about the previous version of this sander, which can still be found online (Tool-Nut no longer carries it), but it comes with the paper filter and tray Festool has sold for years (I guess there is no lead abatement issues with the paper filter, go figure). 

I sometimes use the paper filter and tray with my Festool RS 2E, and have no problems with it at all.

Here is an Amazon link for the older version:
https://www.amazon.com/Festool-DTS-400-EQ-Orbital/dp/B004T885LU/ref=dp_ob_title_hi

While the new version is a little more powerful, I also found it disappointing Festool did not include the filter with the new U.S. version selling in our country. 

 

[jt073]

IMO you should avoid using the bag anyway - it collects some dust, but leaves a lot of it floating around and on the workpiece and surrounding area.

See my last post on this threadhttp://festoolownersgroup.com/festo...eq-vs-old-rts-400-eq-hmm/msg477342/#msg477342

I never used the paper bag that came with my older model RTS400, so cannot comment on whether the new (seriously overdesigned) bag is better; however, given that dust-free working was always Festool's major focus, if not USP, I think the new design is seriously flawed.

In that regard, Shane's point about needing to avoid liability issues is no doubt well-founded. I have commented in the thread referred to above on flaws with the new "Cleantec" spigot - I would suggest that Festool will need to address this also - I would not be using this system for old lead paint work, for example.

I know that you said that it is only on rare occasions that you need to work without a DE - whilst sanding is quieter without the DE, I am not sure that the bag makes the RTS400 much more manoeuvrable than with the hose. As we get older and wiser, and with Festool having previously shown the way, we can see that real dustfree working is both possible and important (and that is why I think Festool boobed in a couple of respects with this otherwise decent machine).

Cheers

 

[Teakdust]

Thanks for the responses. After sleeping on it,  I've decided to return the sander. I don't know what Festool's intentions are here, but life's too short for me to sort it out. It's a shame, because my Domino XL is one of my favorite tools. It's amazing. Oh well...

 

[Brice Burrell]

The worst part is that Festool wants $30 for the dust bag.  You can buy a cheap sander, that includes a dust bag, for 30 bucks.  Come on Festool lower the price, this is crazy.

 

[AlexThePalex]

And I don't even like the Festool bags, way too big, long and inflexible. On the rare occasions I do use a dust bag I don't want it to get in the way, but the Festool bags are so awkward to use.

I use a small and flexible Rupes bag, which also fits. Rupes is not available in the USA, but Milwaukee uses them also.

It would be shame though to let go of a fine sander just because of the dust bag.

 

[antss]

Shane - I love ya man, but it really looks like you're trying to carry FT's water on this one.  Your advice to Kevin is spot on though.

If RRP were the case then don't you suppose that companies like Makita and Dewalt would eliminate the bags with their sanders ???  Both of which you guys sell on your site .  They have a lot more to lose in terms of sales, potential $$$ exposure, and overall detriment to brand position if there were to be a ruling .  Bosch, Ryobi, Milwaukee, Hitachi, Craftsman and even Metabo deliver their sanders in the USA with bags or canisters.  Think they all want to run afoul of Big Brother ?

Festool has made a conscious decision to charge for the bag in this market.  Kinda like they decided to charge xtra for the 8mm collets  in the UK, instead of including them with router delivery like they do in other markets.

The argument is also flawed in that merely offering it at all exposes FT to risk if using it exposes one to RRP issues.    Even the bag itself might be questioned as second rate compared to the Rupes canister that a few companies are starting to offer. 

Rupes dust bag

 

[peter halle]

Shane - I love ya man, but it really looks like you're trying to carry FT's water on this one.  Your advice to Kevin is spot on though.

If RRP were the case then don't you suppose that companies like Makita and Dewalt would eliminate the bags with their sanders ???  Both of which you guys sell on your site .  They have a lot more to lose in terms of sales, potential $$$ exposure, and overall detriment to brand position if there were to be a ruling .  Bosch, Ryobi, Milwaukee, Hitachi, Craftsman and even Metabo deliver their sanders in the USA with bags or canisters.  Think they all want to run afoul of Big Brother ?

Festool has made a conscious decision to charge for the bag in this market.  Kinda like they decided to charge xtra for the 8mm collets  in the UK, instead of including them with router delivery like they do in other markets.

The argument is also flawed in that merely offering it at all exposes FT to risk if using it exposes one to RRP issues.    Even the bag itself might be questioned as second rate compared to the Rupes canister that a few companies are starting to offer. 

Rupes dust bag

I am not Shane but I'll respectfully offer this opinion:  Festool USA is extremely focussed on risk management in the North American market and by not automatically supplying the bag they are adding a level of protection.  Just like not supporting the use of the 2200 in the CMS table.  These decisions are not made lightly and are reviewed at the highest levels in conjunction with risk management consultants and insurance risk professionals at probably a global level.

Peter

 

[Teakdust]

One of the reasons the dust collection bag is important to my use is that I might be working on 100 foot yacht up on stands in the middle of a field. With maybe a 100 foot extension cord running to the nearest outlet. Or I may have to work off the ships batteries through the 110vac inverter. The load of a sander combined with a vacuum is often too much of a current load. Sometimes I'm just inside of a locker or compartment that's just too tight to be able work with a vacuum hose. That's why I put in the due diligence to go to Festool's site, download the instructions, and make sure the sander would suit my needs. I'm not a hobbyist. I do this for a living. So when I'm told that the information that they provide doesn't apply, I get more than a little frustrated.

Kevin Reed - Annapolis Harbor Boatyard

Sent from my iPhone

 

[jeh]

Shane - I love ya man, but it really looks like you're trying to carry FT's water on this one.  Your advice to Kevin is spot on though.

If RRP were the case then don't you suppose that companies like Makita and Dewalt would eliminate the bags with their sanders ???  Both of which you guys sell on your site .  They have a lot more to lose in terms of sales, potential $$$ exposure, and overall detriment to brand position if there were to be a ruling .  Bosch, Ryobi, Milwaukee, Hitachi, Craftsman and even Metabo deliver their sanders in the USA with bags or canisters.  Think they all want to run afoul of Big Brother ?

Festool has made a conscious decision to charge for the bag in this market.  Kinda like they decided to charge xtra for the 8mm collets  in the UK, instead of including them with router delivery like they do in other markets.

The argument is also flawed in that merely offering it at all exposes FT to risk if using it exposes one to RRP issues.    Even the bag itself might be questioned as second rate compared to the Rupes canister that a few companies are starting to offer. 

Rupes dust bag

I am not Shane but I'll respectfully offer this opinion:  Festool USA is extremely focussed on risk management in the North American market and by not automatically supplying the bag they are adding a level of protection.  Just like not supporting the use of the 2200 in the CMS table.  These decisions are not made lightly and are reviewed at the highest levels in conjunction with risk management consultants and insurance risk professionals at probably a global level.

Peter

That is not even a remotely similar comparison given that most other tool manufacturers include and any reasonable person would expect for it to be included. I'll venture to so that the vast majority of those using handheld sanders (outside of this forum) do not use a vacuum. The bag is there only line of defense.

 

[Cochese]

Shane - I love ya man, but it really looks like you're trying to carry FT's water on this one.  Your advice to Kevin is spot on though.

If RRP were the case then don't you suppose that companies like Makita and Dewalt would eliminate the bags with their sanders ???  Both of which you guys sell on your site .  They have a lot more to lose in terms of sales, potential $$$ exposure, and overall detriment to brand position if there were to be a ruling .  Bosch, Ryobi, Milwaukee, Hitachi, Craftsman and even Metabo deliver their sanders in the USA with bags or canisters.  Think they all want to run afoul of Big Brother ?

Festool has made a conscious decision to charge for the bag in this market.  Kinda like they decided to charge xtra for the 8mm collets  in the UK, instead of including them with router delivery like they do in other markets.

The argument is also flawed in that merely offering it at all exposes FT to risk if using it exposes one to RRP issues.    Even the bag itself might be questioned as second rate compared to the Rupes canister that a few companies are starting to offer. 

Rupes dust bag

I am not Shane but I'll respectfully offer this opinion:  Festool USA is extremely focussed on risk management in the North American market and by not automatically supplying the bag they are adding a level of protection.  Just like not supporting the use of the 2200 in the CMS table.  These decisions are not made lightly and are reviewed at the highest levels in conjunction with risk management consultants and insurance risk professionals at probably a global level.

Peter

They're entirely TOO focused on risk management if that's the line of thought by them. While the stereotype of Americans suing over everything isn't completely without merit, we're big boys.

 

[Holmz]

Shane - I love ya man, but it really looks like you're trying to carry FT's water on this one.  Your advice to Kevin is spot on though.

If RRP were the case then don't you suppose that companies like Makita and Dewalt would eliminate the bags with their sanders ???  Both of which you guys sell on your site .  They have a lot more to lose in terms of sales, potential $$$ exposure, and overall detriment to brand position if there were to be a ruling .  Bosch, Ryobi, Milwaukee, Hitachi, Craftsman and even Metabo deliver their sanders in the USA with bags or canisters.  Think they all want to run afoul of Big Brother ?

Festool has made a conscious decision to charge for the bag in this market.  Kinda like they decided to charge xtra for the 8mm collets  in the UK, instead of including them with router delivery like they do in other markets.

The argument is also flawed in that merely offering it at all exposes FT to risk if using it exposes one to RRP issues.    Even the bag itself might be questioned as second rate compared to the Rupes canister that a few companies are starting to offer. 

Rupes dust bag

I am not Shane but I'll respectfully offer this opinion:  Festool USA is extremely focussed on risk management in the North American market and by not automatically supplying the bag they are adding a level of protection.  Just like not supporting the use of the 2200 in the CMS table.  These decisions are not made lightly and are reviewed at the highest levels in conjunction with risk management consultants and insurance risk professionals at probably a global level.

Peter

How come every other manufacture has a 2$ bag for free?

If they were focused on risk, they would give the bag away for free...
Or the sander would not power on without the bag or a vacuum.

But I do not pay them to look after my health, it is a sander and most all sanders for the last decade or more come with a bag when advertised that they come with a bag.

 

[peter halle]

In response to the posts quoting mine - I did not say that I understood their or their insurance carriers' thoughts and actions.  Rather I stated that this was a real possible consideration.  Personally I think that Festool in the NA is too conservative and that is allowing many products to NOT come here.  Evidently there are other manufacturers who have similar risks but decide to move forward comfortably.

Every company is different I suppose.

Peter

 

[TylerC]

There seem to be two separate issues here: (1.) inaccurate communication about scope of delivery and (2.) why not include the dust bag and charge $30 for it separately.

On the first one, that's certainly something that can improve on. We are going to update the manual for this (along with the RTS 400 REQ) to be accurate. However, it's fair that you shouldn't need to comb through the manual to find the scope of delivery. We're launching a new website this spring, and a clearer scope of delivery will be part of the focus.

As to the second point, previous commenters are correct about it being an RRP-based decision. Are we too cautious or not cautious enough? That's a good topic for another thread.

Yes, the new DTS 400 REQ (along with the RTS 400 REQ) is the same price as the previous version but it excludes the filter bag. However, it's also an improved version of the sander -- with 25% more power, full electronics, improves ergonomics, etc. (FWIW: It's also $86 less expensive in the US than in Germany.)

This has actually been a good thread that has generated some positive conversation in the office this morning. Hopefully, some positive improvements will come as a result.

 

[Nat X]

While I agree that it is both stupid and borderline insulting of Festool not to include the bag, I also find the bags virtually useless and at this point you've easily spent more than $30 worth of a professional yacht builder's time belaboring the issue. As you said, life is short, and if the one at Lowe's does everything you need for $30 just buy it and be happy. The boats will not mind.