New forum member group - Festool Dealer Affiliate

[Administrator_JSVN]

In order to better distinguish those members who are not dealer employees but are closely affiliated with, represent, or receive products in exchange for promoting the dealer, I have created a new member group on the forum. These members will have the tag "Festool Dealer Affiliate" appear under their name on the forum.

Please let me know if you have any questions.

Thank you,
Shane

 

[Alan m]

thats a good idea shane (or who evers it was)
some times you read a review by some one like this but dont know is it unbiased or not. i have seen reviews where bad points or where some other tool would better glossed over to show off the tool that they were promoting

ps did you change the colours of the names for the moderators . was peter halle's coulour (havent checked seths) more orange or is it my imagination

 

[Ken Nagrod]

What does that have to do with being biased or not?

 

[vwdave]

All the reviews I do are my opinion.  Others may feel something else would be better used in certain situations but I may have never thought of it so tell me your thoughts.  The videos reviews I have up are tools I use all the time and want to share my thoughts about them to you guys.  No one forces me to say anything and just hope you can see the tools from different angles and make a determination if it is something you are interested in purchasing.

Dave R

 

[woodguy7]

I am sure this will be un popular but i don't really pay too much attention of reviews done by people who are gifted the tools to review.  Rarely do you see someone with a freebie slagging of the tool.
That review would never get me to buy a tool, much prefer to read a review from someone that has bought the tool & not afraid to say something negative about it.

Sorry Dave & the rest but that's my opinion & i am sure i am not alone even if nobody wants to admit to it.  Nothing personal  [smile]

Woodguy.

 

[vwdave]

No worries Woodguy7 we are all entitled to our own opinions. The only tools given to me in my videos was my cxs and twin box.  Everything else I have owned and used for quite some time.  I have some new videos coming up and there is pluses and negatives in them.  One of the things I don't want to be know as is someone who will say what people want me to say.  If I do a review its my own thoughts and if the product isn't something I like or will use I will not review it.  I already expressed that with a few tool manufactures.  I started doing these video so people could get different views on tools.  I enjoy watching review videos as they are all different and wished there were more as everyones take on a product is different.

I too dislike videos directly from the manufactures and will make sure my newer videos express more of both sides of the tools. 

I partnered up with the toolnut as tools are expensive and they offered to send me products to try and demo and they will be sent back to them when I'm finished reviewing them.  These videos are new to me and as I do more of them I will be more comfortable with the camera and hope to show you the purchasers weather the tool is right for your needs. 

Dave R

 

[Alan m]

ken. know if some one is given the item to review or they spent their hard earned money to buy it goves greadence to the person who bought it. ther is one proviso in that ihave also seen reviews (brice and paul come to mind first but there a few others ) where they recieved the tool to review and did a great job even highlighting a few design issues and how they over came them to suit their needs (pauls work center review comes to mind).
i always rate a review in my head based on how critical they are of the tool , if they point out what it is good and bad about it. by showing how they had to adjust or modify it to suit their needs. all this shows me a good trust worthy reviewer. no tool is perfect and festool tools arnt either, they are very good but not perfect. it is these little details that show a great reviewer from a biosed one (by biosed i mean that they wont critisise the tool they were given due to being in fear of not getting another one to review.

dave . i wasnt talking about you specifically  as i have nothing against you, i feel that this title (very posh) you were given (and others) will show us who has been given the tool to review and who might be biosed.

you posted while i was writing so . it is good to see that you like a ballenced review . it shows good judgement on your part

 

[justinmcf]

hi dave.
i just watched a couple of your videos.
excellent work.

i really enjoyed the cxs video.

i honestly thought i did not need this drill.
but after seeing your video, maybe i do............

with regards to advertising.
i understand that you have sponsors and you have to mention them. no worries there.
however, i dislike videos where the adverts are rammed down my neck.

ie. when you show an advert on the video, i reckon its a good idea to have a "close" or "x" icon so the viewer can choose to close the advertisement. (i realise you did present this option to some of your adverts, but not all
anyway, its only a small critique.
apart from that, great videos and keep them coming!

regards, justin.

 

[Steve R]

In order to better distinguish those members who are not dealer employees but are closely affiliated with, represent, or receive products in exchange for promoting the dealer, I have created a new member group on the forum. These members will have the tag "Festool Dealer Affiliate" appear under their name on the forum.

Please let me know if you have any questions.

Thank you,
Shane

I think that is a great idea and a good thing to do.

I would postulate that if Festool were to send a tool to a person, I would trust that more than a person that is given a tool by a Dealer. Just to be clear a corporation has more rules about kick back than a person/dealer do.

I have been talking to my local store and asking why they don't post here. The manager said they don't own the site, nor would they be be charged to post there. They feel that if they post here as a dealer store they would be over stepping the bounds of honesty. I have to say I respect that. As a brick and mortar store they have a website and use both web and print advertising to reach customers. 

They had a interesting point. Anytime a dealer posts outside of the dealer section they should kick in $5-10 to fund the site and if they give a tool out for review and it is posted here. They should pay market rates for the advertising if their name is used.

Being a former BBC (Best Buy Corp) advertising/marketing exec. I find their view refreshing. Any company that doesn't pay to play... is just stealing from the rest.

Don't get me wrong I want any Festool Dealer to succeed, just not at the cost of others.

Cheers,
Steve

 

[vwdave]

Justin

The cxs is awesome I use it all the time. I loved c12 because of the attachments and mainly the way you grip it.  I hold it up high and all my force is directly behind the drills tip. Now the cxs offers all this in a small light weight design. It is my new favorite drill.

Youtube started putting adds on some of my videos and I dislike them also I'll talk to my buddy who does the videos for me to see about removing them.

Dave

 

[WarnerConstCo.]

I will make sure to tell you guys if I think something is a pile of poop.

I also try to break it, just to make sure it wont. [cool]

Can I have my name in a shade of pink?

 

[Ken Nagrod]

Alan M,

I've had tools sent to me by other companys free of charge for testing and evaluation, yet I explained up front that they're not getting any special treatment and whatever results I come up with, good or bad, that's what I come out with publically.  That doesn't make me biased just because I was sent tools for free.  It's the individual that is biased or unbiased based on their own make up.  It seemed from your post that you were including Dave in your comment about getting free tools = a biased review, yet I can tell you from knowing him in person, he's not like that.  He even told me of a recent Festool purchase that he's unhappy with and wouldn't recommend.  That video might wind up on here or it might not.  That's not for me to decide.  Darcy (Warner Construction) was given a CXS just as Dave was.  Is he biased.  I don't know for sure, but what I do know of the guy, I really doubt it.  My point is you need to consider it on a case by case basis, not just across the board.  Obviously most companys would love to have nothing but positive reviews.  Hopefully they're realistic and not spiteful when that doesn't always happen.  Christian told me himself that he wants to hear the good and the bad.  That's how they improve.

Steve R,

I don't agree with your post.  Nobody should be charged a fee for posting on here or getting some recognition.  Every Festool dealer has the opportunity to come on here and be proactive.  The more they join in on discussions and come up with their own, the more the other FOG members will take notice of them, which can lead to sales.  We've had a good number of other companys come on here to respond to comments about their products.  I don't see any reason to charge them a fee for making statements that would put their product in a good light, to increase sales.  As long as they follow the rules that we have that everyone else must follow, I don't see any problem with it.

If the advertising part of the video reviews bothers anyone, just click the pause or close button and stop watching.  It seems like a simple enough solution.  Wouldn't you agree?

Wishing everyone a good weekend and holiday, except me.  I have to work (cause I'm making myself).  [sad] ... but that'll lead to a nice chunk of dough.  [smile]

 

[Alan m]

ken i agree that i am making too big a wide sweeping statment. you can be biased whether you pay for the tool or get it for free.
im sure every one on here wants to seea honest overall review and doesnt want to see a sales add

i never expressed my opinion of daves videos as i didnt want to bring dave into it personally only talk about his title . as far as i know dave is the only one with this title but more will follow

 

[jmbfestool]

I am sure this will be un popular but i don't really pay too much attention of reviews done by people who are gifted the tools to review.  Rarely do you see someone with a freebie slagging of the tool.
That review would never get me to buy a tool, much prefer to read a review from someone that has bought the tool & not afraid to say something negative about it.

Sorry Dave & the rest but that's my opinion & i am sure i am not alone even if nobody wants to admit to it.  Nothing personal  [smile]

Woodguy.

Im with you Woodguy!  

 

[Administrator_JSVN]

Thought I'd share a quick comment or two...

First, I've met Dave in person. He's a heck of a nice guy and definitely a proponent of Festool. It was a pleasure spending quite a bit of time talking with him at JLC Providence earlier this year.

This is simply about disclosure and making sure that member recognize a member's affiliation/sponsorship with dealer which can lead to bias even beyond the videos. I've tried to make sure that any time we have provided a forum member or SysNotes contributor with a product for review or evaluation, that they fully disclose that. I think it fosters trust with the reader of the article or viewer of the video.

I don't want to discourage Dave from future videos nor do I want to discourage anyone else that happens to follow his lead. Dave, thanks for doing the videos. I think they are educational and very well done.

Shane

 

[Theshipstore]

Shane      Well Put, perfect explanation , all that is needed as far as I am concerned

Sal

 

[AlexThePalex]

I am sure this will be un popular but i don't really pay too much attention of reviews done by people who are gifted the tools to review.  Rarely do you see someone with a freebie slagging of the tool.
That review would never get me to buy a tool, much prefer to read a review from someone that has bought the tool & not afraid to say something negative about it.

Sorry Dave & the rest but that's my opinion & i am sure i am not alone even if nobody wants to admit to it.  Nothing personal  [smile]

Woodguy.

Im with you Woodguy!  

Me too.

But I always make a distinction between two kind of reviews, because there's always two sides of a story. The first is the feature review where you want to hear what a certain tool can do according to the manufacturer and his affiliates, and second there's the feedback review where you want to hear how that actually turns out in real life, according to people who have actually used the tool.

Both type of reviews are always an important part in my research before I buy something expensive. First, you want to know what a tool actually does and for that you check flyers, catalogues and websites of manufacturers, and now YouTube with vids by people like Paul-Marcel, Brice Burrel and Dave Reinhold are indispensable for that. The second part is a bit trickier, but gladly now forums like the FOG help you along by reading people's experience with tools in real life. What I really like is how internet shops like Amazon and NewEgg allow you to post user reviews, because that's where the real gold lies: people who have seen the good and bad about what they bought and can rate it. I can spend hours there reading people's opinions.

So to be able to make a good distinction between both types of review I think it's a wise decision by Shane to make a separate category for dealer affiliates. I'm sure Dave is a good guy starting out with the best of intentions, but I just saw his video on YouTube where he went to the ToolNut, and well, if that isn't one big advertisment then I don't know anymore. Nothing wrong with that, but it's good for other people to know where those reviewers stand exactly.

PS, I find that remark by Steve R about dealers who don't pay are stealing utterly ridiculous BS and on the edge of being offensive. I guess that's how advertising exec's think, after hearing the same kind of talk from some NBC or CBS exec a while ago who said zapping away during a commercial is theft. That's not what an open community like the FOG is about, it's about open and free exchange of knowledge and camaraderie. I am glad dealers like Tom and Bob and Sean participate in this forum. Being from accross the pond I will never buy anything from them but I do like to see and read their unique perspective they bring to the FOG. So if a bit of free advertising is actually steeling, what's next? If I see a picture of the White House, do I have to mail the US government a dollar?

PPS, since everybody's getting free CXS's here on the forum, please send me one too and I promise I'll be as positive about it as humanly possible.  [big grin]

 

[vwdave]

Thanks Shane for the kind words.  I will continue to do videos and like I said earlier they will only get better as time goes by.  I have a strong passion for carpentry and especially tools.  I was always know by my friends and coworkers as someone that was always buying new tools and constantly trying new methods until I found exactly what I was looking for.  I totally agree with the affiliation title you gave me as I'm working closer to one specific dealer.  A great example is many people love Gary Katz.  Guess what he has sponsors and probably get paid.  Does that mean you don't won't to watch him or can't use his advice?  I've learned so much from him and trust what he says about woodworking, tools and products he uses.  I just hope the few people that might not trust me give me a chance as I will never steer someone in a direction I wouldn't go in.  

Lets enjoy the rest of the weekend and talk about our trade.

Dave  R

 

[RONWEN]

Excellent idea Shane.  Bias can creep into even the most honest reviewer with the best of intentions.  People are people.  [wink]

 

[vwdave]

Alex

The Toolnut video, I was not posting on here as it is mainly an advertisement.  I made it to show how much they actually have that isn't on their web pages and because they have always been there for me before I started working with them.  The toolnut is going to be a great resource for me as I can't afford every tool but they have connections with the manufactures to be able to send me products to try out and review.  Those products will be sent back to them when I am finished, and if they are given to me it will be noted in my review.  Working with a store is great as I feel like I can say whatever I want about the product and not feel repercussions from the manufactures as it was provided by the store.  And the review will be great for their own knowledge to better sell the product or not carry it if it doesn't work well.  That was also the first time I actually met the toolnut guys face to face as they are 2hrs away from me so I had a great time.   

Dave R