New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada

[Brice Burrell]

Blah. Blah. Blah. You foggers supporting the knock off miss the point. It's just about the letter of the law to you. What about being straight up, any of y'all willing to honor a hand shake....

I agree, its about integrity.  I see it no different than some guy walking down the street offering to sell you an extension ladder.  You know the guy stole the ladder because you recognize it as your neighbor's, and you buy it anyways.

Deciding this one is a no brainer.  One guy is selling a stolen idea, the other guy worked with FOG to develop a product that the community wanted.  If you are having any trouble deciding which one to buy, well, I question your integrity. 

 

[junk731]

For better or worst business is based on taking an idea and trying to sell and there is very little integrity, wake up and smell the coffee. The better/first/cheapest/most expensive product doesn't always win and the few people here discussing it won't mean a ratass to sales. If you want to talk integrity this is the wrong time and wrong society to do it in. This whole thread is clear evidence.

John

 

[rmwarren]

John,

I normally avoid debating stuff on the net, it's just too much to me like standing on a street corner preaching to passers by. Everyone has opinions and I don't particularly care if anyone agrees with mine or if I even hear theirs.

However, I have to say I totally but respectfully disagree with your statement. If we all take the cynical easy choice wherever faced with it then as a society we are all worse off. Doing the right thing, whatever you might consider that to be, is important and worthwhile.

Seems like I am gonna have to burn that soapbox.  [doh]

RMW

For better or worst business is based on taking an idea and trying to sell and there is very little integrity, wake up and smell the coffee. The better/first/cheapest/most expensive product doesn't always win and the few people here discussing it won't mean a ratass to sales. If you want to talk integrity this is the wrong time and wrong society to do it in. This whole thread is clear evidence.

John

 

[junk731]

John,

I normally avoid debating stuff on the net, it's just too much to me like standing on a street corner preaching to passers by. Everyone has opinions and I don't particularly care if anyone agrees with mine or if I even hear theirs.

However, I have to say I totally but respectfully disagree with your statement. If we all take the cynical easy choice wherever faced with it then as a society we are all worse off. Doing the right thing, whatever you might consider that to be, is important and worthwhile.

Seems like I am gonna have to burn that soapbox.  [doh]

RMW

Yah want a match.

John

 

[rmwarren]

There is an old thread on here where I was yapping about making them but as usual taking my time. Sometime before I finalized anything Ron Wenner emailed me to tell me he was planning to offer the same thing. They hit the market around the same time.

Both products and the later Precision guides were all copies of a homemade set that another Fogger posted. None of us actually innovated anything over the original poster's idea, nor did anyone claim any intellectual property ownership. Ron's DomiPlate was also the result of improving on a Fogger's homemade jig and making it available to the public.

I guess I get your point relative to my indignation, but IMHO the situations are somewhat different. TSO did not release their product prior to applying for a patent. Anyone copying it is clearly offering a center-finger salute to the IP holder.

My reaction to the other John's post was more about the idea that our times/society is not the place for discussions about integrity.

The funny thing is, I now recall that thread ending after Shane schwacked me (rightly) for using the FOG to market a product that competed with Festool's own parallel guides.

RMW

Richard, so which came first the Ripdog Rip Guides or Seneca Woodworking Parallel Guides? They do the same thing and are so basically the same design save for an angle versus an inside corner.

 

[ewils91]

For better or worst business is based on taking an idea and trying to sell and there is very little integrity, wake up and smell the coffee. The better/first/cheapest/most expensive product doesn't always win and the few people here discussing it won't mean a ratass to sales. If you want to talk integrity this is the wrong time and wrong society to do it in. This whole thread is clear evidence.

John

I for one do what I feel is the right thing even when no one is watching and even if it is a futile gesture. I'll do this until the day I die.

I honor a deal and a handshake even when I realize I screwed up. I've made so much repeat business by being honorable, and I refuse to buy a knock off product. It's my choice and the way I live my life, your mileage may vary.

 

[woodvkk]

I know Hans said don't throw unkind words at toolnut. But they frequent this forum and if they know IP is being compromised by a product they are selling, I question my purchasing from them in the future unless they address this ethically. There are plenty of festool dealers out there for me to choose from.

 

[Brice Burrell]

I know Hans said don't throw unkind words at toolnut. But they frequent this forum and if they know IP is being compromised by a product they are selling, I question my purchasing from them in the future unless they address this ethically. There are plenty of festool dealers out there for me to choose from.

I agree.  The price is the same for Festool products so we buy on service and from the people we feel good about spending our money with.  I can't feel good about giving my money to people who's integrity I have to question.  Dan has made the right choice, I hope Toolnut does the same.

 

[antss]

Some food for thought for all of you outraged at Toolnuts ethics :

Have you / are you reporting your purchases from them to your state and paying the use tax on those purchases ?  Or the other internet sources you buy your tools from ?

Thought not.

It's easy to be ethically outraged when it's not your money that the questionable ethics are affecting.

 

[Paul G]

I know Hans said don't throw unkind words at toolnut. But they frequent this forum and if they know IP is being compromised by a product they are selling, I question my purchasing from them in the future unless they address this ethically. There are plenty of festool dealers out there for me to choose from.

Interesting, I don't recall ever reading anyone applying the same principle to any retailer of the Bosch REAXX.

 

[cpw]

Interesting, I don't recall ever reading anyone applying the same principle to any retailer of the Bosch REAXX.

REAXX definitely had some innovations over the Sawstop; not damaging the blade and the dual-fire cartridges for one.  I've got a PCS that I'm super happy with, and have never had the brake fire - but I can see that for someone with employees how the REAXX technology would be a win.

 

[Paul G]

Interesting, I don't recall ever reading anyone applying the same principle to any retailer of the Bosch REAXX.

REAXX definitely had some innovations over the Sawstop; not damaging the blade and the dual-fire cartridges for one.  I've got a PCS that I'm super happy with, and have never had the brake fire - but I can see that for someone with employees how the REAXX technology would be a win.

My point is that it was well known that there was an IP dispute between Sawstop and Bosch but I never read of people questioning the ethics of any retailer selling the REAXX.

 

[Brice Burrell]

Have you / are you reporting your purchases from them to your state and paying the use tax on those purchases ?  Or the other internet sources you buy your tools from ?

Thought not.

I write my tools off as a business expense so I pay the use tax.  Even if I didn't that still wouldn't change what Toolnut is doing is questionable.

 

[antss]

You actually keep a separate accounting sub-category in your books that differentiates between locally bought tools and materials vs. those that you buy out of state ?

And then tally those at the end of each month; file a PA-1 and remit a check with ?

Holy cow !  I'll bet you're one of the few round here.

Bravo.

 

[woodvkk]

Interesting, I don't recall ever reading anyone applying the same principle to any retailer of the Bosch REAXX.

REAXX definitely had some innovations over the Sawstop; not damaging the blade and the dual-fire cartridges for one.  I've got a PCS that I'm super happy with, and have never had the brake fire - but I can see that for someone with employees how the REAXX technology would be a win.

My point is that it was well known that there was an IP dispute between Sawstop and Bosch but I never read of people questioning the ethics of any retailer selling the REAXX.

Neither sawstop nor Bosch are small entities although Bosch is arguably much larger. I own a sawstop and love it, but wasn't convinced that Bosch stole any IP ( i.e software, firmware ) to build their version, and their implementation looks different and had different features and so the idea of flesh detection itself being patentable seems questionable since there are other technologies out there for flesh detection. There are patent battles every day between large companies, and I'm not sure that everyone will agree with the court ruling on Bosch.

Arguably, this square implementation looks exactly the same with some tweaks and it's up to each person to decide what they think. I wrote what I think and as someone whose dealt with IP issues in the past I feel that it's good to support an entity that is small and niche, works with the members of this forum, takes feedback and ideas and comes up with innovative products. Whether that resonates with anyone else is up to them,  but I don't have to support retailers on this forum that don't see it that way.

 

[woodvkk]

Some food for thought for all of you outraged at Toolnuts ethics :

Have you / are you reporting your purchases from them to your state and paying the use tax on those purchases ?  Or the other internet sources you buy your tools from ?

Thought not.

It's easy to be ethically outraged when it's not your money that the questionable ethics are affecting.

I've paid a lot of good hard earned after tax money to toolnut. So it is my money.

 

[Cheese]

Interesting, I don't recall ever reading anyone applying the same principle to any retailer of the Bosch REAXX.

Apples and oranges...

 

[ben_r_]

I wish this thread would have stayed on the topic of the new product. I was only interested in how it compared to the TSO version. I'd like to know why one might choose the TSO version over this one, other than because it came first in design but not in concept.

 

[Cheese]

Then I'd suggest you purchase both versions of this product, the original and the wannabe version. Compare them, report back and then return the losing product for a refund.

 

[nickao]

I wish this thread would have stayed on the topic of the new product. I was only interested in how it compared to the TSO version. I'd like to know why one might choose the TSO version over this one, other than because it came first in design but not in concept.

As far as functionality to  my eye the new one does the same thing and for me it would work the same. So go cheaper if you dont have the funds. I like the TSO and use it daily.

Functionality is sometime not the sole reason to buy a product from a certain  place though. One reason to go with TSO is you are buying straight from a small US company directly rather than from a tool store that just distributes the tool. So if service is a major issue TSO could be the better buy.

For example even the seller said they would have to contact the manufacturer to answer a question, with TSO that step is skipped. This communication and service is important to many buyers.