New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada

[ewils91]

I wish this thread would have stayed on the topic of the new product. I was only interested in how it compared to the TSO version. I'd like to know why one might choose the TSO version over this one, other than because it came first in design but not in concept.

As far as functionality to  my eye the new one does the same thing and for me it would work the same. So go cheaper if you dont have the funds. I like the TSO and use it daily.

Functionality is sometime not the sole reason to buy a product from a certain  place though. One reason to go with TSO is you are buying straight from a small US company directly rather than from a tool store that just distributes the tool. So if service is a major issue TSO could be the better buy.

For example even the seller said they would have to contact the manufacturer to answer a question, with TSO that step is skipped. This communication and service is important to many buyers.

I agree. Heck, TSO comes here regularly to monitor for problems and improvement opportunities and seems to jump all over problems and even communication shortcomings in their company.

Has anyone seen anything from the actual company producing this wanna be? They may have somewhere but I haven't heard or seen it.

 

[antss]

Some food for thought for all of you outraged at Toolnuts ethics :

Have you / are you reporting your purchases from them to your state and paying the use tax on those purchases ?  Or the other internet sources you buy your tools from ?

Thought not.

It's easy to be ethically outraged when it's not your money that the questionable ethics are affecting.

I've paid a lot of good hard earned after tax money to toolnut. So it is my money.

And are you sending in your Washington State Consumer Use Tax Form with payment for all of those ToolNut purchases ?    You're obligated to pay that under Washington law even if you used your after Federal income taxed money to buy the stuff.

 

[Brice Burrell]

Some food for thought for all of you outraged at Toolnuts ethics :

Have you / are you reporting your purchases from them to your state and paying the use tax on those purchases ?  Or the other internet sources you buy your tools from ?

Thought not.

It's easy to be ethically outraged when it's not your money that the questionable ethics are affecting.

I've paid a lot of good hard earned after tax money to toolnut. So it is my money.

And are you sending in your Washington State Consumer Use Tax Form with payment for all of those ToolNut purchases ?    You're obligated to pay that under Washington law even if you used your after Federal income taxed money to buy the stuff.

Why don't you put the screws to the guy that stole the IP, or the retailers that are willing to look the other way to make a buck.  I've met some of the guys at Toolnut, and I've known Shane for a decade, and met him half a dozen times.  Nice guys, all of them.  They've earned a good reputation.  It seems shortsighted for them to offer a product that in a direct ripoff a well know product here on the FOG, from a well respected FOG member.  They chose to risk their reputation.  Don't blame the guys that don't like the choice they've made. 

 

[peter halle]

At the end of the day what will happen falls into TSO's hands.  Will they spend money to defend their position on patents pending (there may be multiple patents pending on a product). It may or may not make financial sense.  This is why many copycat items are produced in China.  Expensive and not a good legal system.

If they do, the action will be against the manufacturer.  The retailers have not done anything wrong.  Usually it will be a cease and desist letter from legal counsel and then escalate from there if necessary.  If then real legal action is required then the normal course of business would be to seek a ruling and obtain possibly a legal injunction to force the manufacturer to remove the items from the market.  Once again. - the retailers have done nothing wrong.  If an injunction is granted, and if so desired, then there are proceedings to grant damages if it makes economical sense to do so.  Tough to collect money from a turnip so to say.

I am certain that TSO will be tight lipped here regarding this situation for obvious reasons.  I am also certain that they appreciate the moral support for their products and also their customer service.

And I would bet money that they are not holding a grudge nor have any bad feelings against dealers.

Peter

 

[Svar]

Some food for thought for all of you outraged at Toolnuts ethics :

Have you / are you reporting your purchases from them to your state and paying the use tax on those purchases ?  Or the other internet sources you buy your tools from ?

Thought not.

It's easy to be ethically outraged when it's not your money that the questionable ethics are affecting.

I've paid a lot of good hard earned after tax money to toolnut. So it is my money.

And are you sending in your Washington State Consumer Use Tax Form with payment for all of those ToolNut purchases ?    You're obligated to pay that under Washington law even if you used your after Federal income taxed money to buy the stuff.

Translation:
- N stole from M.
- Don't complain, you might under report your taxes.

 

[semenza]

Those who want to discuss the pros and cons of the square (s) ..... rock on.

Those who want to have a taxes discussion please take elsewhere ..... like private.

Seth

 

[antss]

Brice - et al .

I'm not putting the screws to anyone.  I have two points :

1.  It seems most don't realize or are simply glossing over is that "patent pending" does not afford much protection.  If TSO's patent is denied - then this discussion is moot.  If it's granted , then they can seek a royalty from the infringers.  It's all just hypothetical now.

If it's denied, then companies like toonut have wasted an opportunity.  And customer's denied a product.  If TSO's clip or whatever is patented , then they'll have recourse.  Assuming they haven't buried the other guys with a better product first !

2. Any discussion of ethics by folks needs to tempered by looking in the mirror. I bring up the tax issue because anyone that is claiming ToolNut or anyone else is acting unethically has no leg to stand on if they are not squeaky clean themselves.  And most people are not 100%.

This "use" tax issue is an easy gotcha because most guys are ignorant to the laws ( not a valid excuse) and or simply don't feel like abiding.  I'm not deriding civil disobedience , but I'm fairly confident that most of the guys questioning TN's motives are not paying use taxes at some point.  Especially rich if they buy from TN now and don't live in NY, VA, & KY.

I suppose it can be argued that not paying taxes is not unethical , but it certainly is illegal.

I think TSO will triumph in the end.  But, not because of a patent; but because they simply have a better run business with better people.  And because they are innovators, not copy cats.

 

[Brice Burrell]

Brice - et al .

I'm not putting the screws to anyone.  I have two points...

The patent pending issue is a legal matter that TSO seems to have the upper hand in.  I'm not really concerned about the legal aspect, its the ethical part that bothers me. 

It doesn't matter one bit if I'm the least ethical guy on the planet, I'm going to decide where to spend my money in no small part based on the people/companies that I feel I can respect and trust.

TSO/Hans worked with the community to develop its products.  They have earned respect and the business of the FOG members that wanted these products. Now another retailer comes along selling a ripoff product to undercut the guy that earned the respect and the business.  That doesn't sit right with me.  Adding insult to injury that are supporting a guy that stole IP.

 

[Paul G]

Interesting, I don't recall ever reading anyone applying the same principle to any retailer of the Bosch REAXX.

Apples and oranges...

Only because some people don't like the founder of SS while the folks at TSO are liked.

 

[ben_r_]

Then I'd suggest you purchase both versions of this product, the original and the wannabe version. Compare them, report back and then return the losing product for a refund.

Ha ha you first

 

[Brice Burrell]

Interesting, I don't recall ever reading anyone applying the same principle to any retailer of the Bosch REAXX.

Apples and oranges...

Only because some people don't like the founder of SS while the folks at TSO are liked.

Its already been mentioned that Bosch spend time/money to improve on the design, its not a 1:1 copy like the knock off guide rail square.  Very big difference.

 

[geoffshep]

I guess I am missing something here but there seems to be support for one lot and outrage at the other. 

The following 'new' products (in this link) look pretty similar to existing products to me:
http://festoolownersgroup.com/festo...so-launches-new-20mm-workholding-accessories/

 

[Cheese]

I guess I am missing something here but there seems to be support for one lot and outrage at the other. 

The Cliffs Notes version:
TSO designed the Guide Rail Square, and about a year ago they released it for sale to the public. There was much interaction between Hans (TSO) and some members of the FOG prior to its release. After the release, Hans became very active on the FOG, soliciting feedback both good & bad, on the product in order for TSO to fine tune their square. [cool]
https://tsoproducts.com/tso-products-guide-rail-squares/

A year later a NEW Guide Rail Square appears that is a virtual copy of the original square. The only substantive change is the anodizing color and a $10 reduction in price.  [sad]    [sad]
http://www.toolnut.com/insta-railsquare-festool-makita-track-saw-square.html

 

[DynaGlide]

I guess I am missing something here but there seems to be support for one lot and outrage at the other. 

The Cliffs Notes version:
TSO designed the Guide Rail Square, and about a year ago they released it for sale to the public. There was much interaction between Hans (TSO) and some members of the FOG prior to its release. After the release, Hans became very active on the FOG, soliciting feedback both good & bad, on the product in order for TSO to fine tune their square. [cool]
https://tsoproducts.com/tso-products-guide-rail-squares/

A year later a NEW Guide Rail Square appears that is a virtual copy of the original square. The only substantive change is the anodizing color and a $10 reduction in price.  [sad]    [sad]
http://www.toolnut.com/insta-railsquare-festool-makita-track-saw-square.html

You missed his point. Follow the link be posted.

 

[geoffshep]

Thanks dyna - my post now edited to add clarity  [wink]

 

[Job and Knock]

But, personally I scratch my head.  I've had a track saw since the mid 90's when Festool still had the patent , and not once have I ever wished I had a 90deg jig for the rail.

Well I do a lot of interior fit-out work (shopfitting, bars, restaurants, etc) and either product would be very, very handy. In fact I've just finished an install where I needed to square trim more than two dozen full-sized sheets (specially manufactured decor panels) across the bottom and top edges on site because of a change of specification. I reckon an accurate right angle guide would possibly have saved me something in the order of 3 to 5 hours on the job - maybe not a lot to you, but critical for us with our tight schedules. For most site work the MFT/3 is just too big and unwieldy whilst having insufficient cross cut capacity to handle an 8 x 4ft sheet in crosscut. Taking all those sheets back to the shop to trim down, waiting for them to be cut then returning them, undamaged, would have taken too long and be very risky in terms of damage. So there really are some folk who can use this sort of stuff.

Maybe worth mentioning that as of today we have no supplies in the UK - the one outfit offering the GRS-16 has put a price tag of £207 (USD $292), although that price does include 20% VAT (sales tax), so even with that removed it's still $234. Quite a swallow, but still worth it in the long term

So far you're the only one round here that says they actually use one of these.  You mention others, but who ?  And where are they ?  I'm sincerely curious who else uses one (no matter the brand) and what they are using it to cut.  Maybe it's not for me, but clearly they are selling.  I just would like to know what kinds of tasks guys are actually using them for.  Not the marketing pitch, but what  fellas are really using it on.

Please refer to my previous para.....

 

[ChuckM]

I can imagine how useful this kind of rail square is for cutting sheet goods without a MFT table. In another thread, I just saw people discussing ways to set the fence on the MFT square. using for instance a Woodpeckers square. I suspect the Woodpeckers square alone may cost as much as this kind of rail square.

 

[webbmeister]

While looking for reviews on the TSO product, this discussion came up. A quick visit to the Toolnut page reveals a version 2 of the InstaRail that has a slot on the underside that accepts the InstaRail Rail Dogs. The combination of these items provides the means to place one's track on the MFT in a secure fashion, perhaps eliminating clamps and relieving one of all concern over track slippage during a cut. Is this feature unique to the InstaRail product? Seems quite useful as long as the width of the cut does not exceed the combined width of the InstaRail and the track. What think?

Jim

 

[Corwin]

While looking for reviews on the TSO product, this discussion came up. A quick visit to the Toolnut page reveals a version 2 of the InstaRail that has a slot on the underside that accepts the InstaRail Rail Dogs. The combination of these items provides the means to place one's track on the MFT in a secure fashion, perhaps eliminating clamps and relieving one of all concern over track slippage during a cut. Is this feature unique to the InstaRail product? Seems quite useful as long as the width of the cut does not exceed the combined width of the InstaRail and the track. What think?

Jim

Your first post here -- what took you so long?  [smile]

I just fail to see any value in using Rail Dogs in conjunction with this guide rail square on an MFT. With the rail square attached directly to the guide rail, alignment with the MFT's hole pattern surely must be totally irrelevant. And, wouldn't the combination prove to be rather cumbersome? Anyway, that's what I think of it.

 

[Klemm]

[member=1544]webbmeister[/member]  – welcome to the FOG, Jim.
You raise some good questions about the latest unauthorized Canadian imitation of our US and International Patent Pending GRS-16 series.

Corwin, as a seasoned woodworker, put his finger on some of the issues for you.

If you are going to use an MFT/3 style worktop – or any 20mm x 96mm you don’t need any guide rail square at all. A simpler and lower total cost method is to use a
One pair of TSO’s Stubby Dogs $  23.95
One pair of UJK Dog Rail Clips $  15.95
One pair of small dogs **         $  20.95  **note: any dog pair you already have will work
Total                 $  60.85

the links below will show you how simple that is for 90 and 45 degree cuts.https://tsoproducts.com/workholding-accessories/doublegroove-20mm-bench-dogs-stubby-pair/https://tsoproducts.com/workholding-accessories/dog-rail-clips/

When it comes to speed and accuracy TSO remains unsurpassed.
Fortunately for us, most woodworkers who are aware of TSO as the originator, are unwilling to reward and encourage suppliers of a knock-off product with their purchase.

If you would like more specifics regarding the competing guide rail squares, drop me an email (rather than FOG PM)

Hans
info@tsoproducts.com