New Mafell saw

[Lincoln]

Mafell are releasing their K85 saw, in a dual battery, 18v, version in January. This is the equivalent of Festool's HK85 saw = 85mm depth of cut, 60* tilt, runs on their standard tracks and cross-cut tracks.
Will be interesting to see which battery they recommend with this size saw - from memory, 5.5ah was the one to use for the plunge saw. They now have high power 10ah available to them in the CAS system.

 

[Michael Kellough]

The Metabo CAS 5.5 amp battery weighs exactly the same as the 8amp version. I can’t figure that out.

 

[Tom the Remodeler]

My suspicion is that we'll soon see tab-less batteries become widespread, allowing higher performance out of the same size of battery.

Makita has already released a tab-less version of their 4Ah 40V battery, apparently it has the same performance as the much larger 5Ah and 8Ah batteries, but in the meaningfully smaller 4Ah size.

 

[Lbob131]

I have  tried an 18v - 5ah a few  times  in my  milwaukee  circular saw  and  fully charged  its  pretty  much useless. Just no reserve.
I always  reach  for  the  12ah.

And would  question  the suitability  of  such a large  saw  using batteries.
I use a HK85  quite  a  lot  and  usually  in the workshop and I would  never swap it  for  cordless.
I cut plywood  stacks  full depth  of  the blade.
No  battery saw  can handle  that.

 

[Michael Kellough]

My suspicion is that we'll soon see tab-less batteries become widespread, allowing higher performance out of the same size of battery.

Makita has already released a tab-less version of their 4Ah 40V battery, apparently it has the same performance as the much larger 5Ah and 8Ah batteries, but in the meaningfully smaller 4Ah size.

Don’t know if they have what you need but Metabo still makes some of their tools in Germany.

 

[Frnk]

The Metabo CAS 5.5 amp battery weighs exactly the same as the 8amp version. I can’t figure that out.

They are the very similar in weight because they both use 10 identical-sized 21700 cells. The 5.5 Ah battery employs lower-capacity cells (e. g., ~2.75 Ah per cell like Samsung 30T equivalents), while the 8 Ah uses higher-capacity cells (e. g., ~4 Ah per cell like Samsung 40T).

Batteries ≤100 Wh qualify for exemptions under IATA, ADR/RID, and IMDG rules, avoiding full Class 9 dangerous goods classification, special packaging, labeling, documentation, and quantity limits. Over 100 Wh (like the 8 Ah CAS at 144 Wh) requires stricter handling, higher costs, and carrier restrictions, especially by air.

Bosch also for example keeps a 5.5 Ah battery in the lineup. It allows users that travel with their equipment (rescue services, firefighters) to not worry about the 100 Wh limit. There is no practical reason besides this, as far as I understand.

 

[Michael Kellough]

They are the very similar in weight because they both use 10 identical-sized 21700 cells. The 5.5 Ah battery employs lower-capacity cells (e. g., ~2.75 Ah per cell like Samsung 30T equivalents), while the 8 Ah uses higher-capacity cells (e. g., ~4 Ah per cell like Samsung 40T).

Batteries ≤100 Wh qualify for exemptions under IATA, ADR/RID, and IMDG rules, avoiding full Class 9 dangerous goods classification, special packaging, labeling, documentation, and quantity limits. Over 100 Wh (like the 8 Ah CAS at 144 Wh) requires stricter handling, higher costs, and carrier restrictions, especially by air.

Bosch also for example keeps a 5.5 Ah battery in the lineup. It allows users that travel with their equipment (rescue services, firefighters) to not worry about the 100 Wh limit. There is no practical reason besides this, as far as I understand.

Thanks for the explanation!

 

[demographic]

That would make the HK 85 a far more useful tool in the UK.
We have 240 volt power in the home but are generally restricted to 110 volt corded tools on sites.
So were I to buy a HK85, I would have to jump through hoops in order to use it on sites which is most of my work.
Battery power would make that a non issue.

I keep seeing people saying how battery powered tools just don't have the poke yada yada yada but everyday I go to work as a carpenter and use mostly cordless tools, more and more everyday.
Which leads me to believe that other than in a few outside cases the people saying it just don't know what their talking about.

If yer pottering away in your garage workshop and don't use the tool often enough and batterys become obsolete before the tools wear out (bit of that going on with this forum realistically) then I get the desire to use corded.
Or if the tool gets almost constant industrial usage all day everyday (not so much I'd bet) then I also get it.

Personally I'd be interested in a cordless HK85 but wouldn't currently want to pay full price as I don't need on enough to justify the cost.

Mind, thats what I did with various infrequent usage Festool tools I've bought. Drywall cordless, the 18 volt grinder, TS75 ,and OF1400 router, all bought secondhand.

 

[mino]

...
Personally I'd be interested in a cordless HK85 but wouldn't currently want to pay full price as I don't need on enough to justify the cost.

Mind, thats what I did with various infrequent usage Festool tools I've bought. Drywall cordless, the 18 volt grinder, TS75 ,and OF1400 router, all bought secondhand.

Unfortunately, the more likely scenario is Festool just dropping the HK 85 when/if the sales drop enough.

You may not have noticed this, but the variable-speed HK 85 variety is no longer available for a couple years already.

They have strategically left the "big carpentry" as well as the "wet construction" markets with the abandoning of the Protool brand back in 2014. With the HK 132, the DR 20 or the diamond cutting systems gone, the HK 85 is one of the last hold-outs from that era. Along with that big Duo mixer /also introduced in 2010s/. Those may stick around for a decade more in their current form. But do not count on a like-like replacement.

My 2c.

 

[luvmytoolz]

@mino I don't get why they dropped the DSC that used the guiderail but kept the freehand as a current product here. You could use the guiderail version freehand no problem, but being able to cut dead straight lines I would have thought would be very desired.

 

[mino]

@mino I don't get why they dropped the DSC that used the guiderail but kept the freehand as a current product here. You could use the guiderail version freehand no problem, but being able to cut dead straight lines I would have thought would be very desired.

The background there is that ALL*) the Festool powered angle grinders were based on designs of and manufactured by the Narex Česká Lípa company Festool acquired in the 1990s.


E.g. the main gearing in the latest AG/DSC 125 grinders - which are being phased out - is the exact part taken from a late 1980s Narex 150 mm grinder. They have a Festool part # for it /in addition to the historical Narex one/ but it is the exact same part that is being made since 40 years ago on the exact same machines by the same people. This production is ending now.

The grinder, drills, big saws, etc. development stopped in 2014 with closing of the Protool brand. What was available till recently were only the models developed before that.

As far as I understand the main commercial "problem" was that those are rough tools and the Chinese /Dewalt, Bosch, Makita, etc./ got good-enough so it was no longer possible to compete with them price-wise. This is the reason /IMO/ Festool/TTS is gradually leaving the carpentry and, in general, the wet construction and steel machining markets. They actually abandoned those markets with the closure of Protool, then left some on life support under the local Narex brand to recoup investment while some tools were moved under the Festool brand. What we see now are the last remnants being killed off.

I think this is because the contractors treat their tools roughly and are generally unwilling to pay for quality and/or ergonomics while AT THE SAME TIME the quality of the chinese produce got to the "good-enough" point already about a decade ago. TTS/Festool was unwilling to outsource their production like everyone else and instead focused on the markets where they can compete with German-cost produce.


*) I am not sure if the latest AGC is Fein-sourced or of a Narex/Festool lineage made for Fein, but it is a different design from all previous TTS grinders.T

 

[Mini Me]

When Protool closed the brand in Oz myself and a lot of others were able to buy the quad drills at fire sale prices of about $250 each where they had been retailing around $800+. My biggest regret is I did not buy extra batteries at those prices.

 

[derekcohen]

When Protool closed the brand in Oz myself and a lot of others were able to buy the quad drills at fire sale prices of about $250 each where they had been retailing around $800+. My biggest regret is I did not buy extra batteries at those prices.

About three years ago I purchased a used Festool-rebadged version of the quaddrive 18/4 for general maintenance tasks around the home. It would normlly be too heavy to use in the workshop (I have a C12 and a CSX18), and so decided only to pair it with (then available) 3.1Ah batteries. Later, for the CSX18 I chose to get the newer 3.0Ah batteries.

These batteries are light - significantly lighter and more compact than a 5.0Ah. I could not imagine using a large battery in my drills. I have two for each, one charged and the other in use. Now here's the thing - I read often if the higher Ah batteries have more "power", when my understanding is that they only last a longer duration, not have more power, per se. Some tools, such as a saw, likely demand more instant power, and will drain a battery quicker. A larger Ah makes sense in this context. The tool benefits from being able to carry and remain balanced by the extra mass. I have been considering a cordless trim router, and a large Ah battery would not suit this.

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[Frnk]

I read often if the higher Ah batteries have more "power", when my understanding is that they only last a longer duration, not have more power, per se.

Higher Ah batteries often use more cells in parallel, reducing internal resistance and enabling sustained higher current output under load without excessive voltage sag.

So yes, Amp-hour (Ah) measures total energy storage, indicating how long a battery lasts at a given current draw—for instance, a 5Ah battery sustains 1A for 5 hours, versus 3 hours for a 3Ah one. But a 5Ah battery usually can draw more power than a 3Ah battery due to reduced internal resistance.

 

[Nisbeth]

The capacity also doesn't scale as linearly with current draw as the term "amp-hour" might imply. Lower currents are easier to handle, so 1 amp for 5 hours isn't the same as 5 amps for 1 hour.

Actual capacity really should be stated as "x Ah @ y Amps", but of course that's a bit too complicated for marketing purposes