PeterK said:We have drifted way off topic as I was hoping to really abuse Bob for not having the new toys (tools) on his website yet. Man, he is slow!!!
As to carpenters, there are thousands who are way better woodworkers than I - no doubt. But the real eye-opener was when I moved from Michigan to Louisiana about 12 years ago. Tradesmen/women up North were extremely capable and proud of their work. Here it is the opposite. I see houses built with door frame openings that are so oversized that the only way to hang pre-hung door is to use 4-6" wide door trim. Every thing is painted so they can fudge in all the bad cuts with caulk. They can build very attractive houses here but the quality just stinks. Of course, there is no inspection program required on the construction. Another example was when I nneded to replace my shingled roof. Wanted to do it myself but we were so buried at work that they offered to pay to have it done verses me taking time off. Well, like an idiot, I took them up on it. Turns out the "respected" roofer stripped the roof down and put shingles on with no tar paper or valley lining - just shingles. I complained to the local city office but turns out there is no required standard for roofing. So - I got to work and have a really crappy roof which is doubly bad living in a hurricane area.
Pete
That's right Pete. I like that we've struck a cord here. Quality in workmanship. It's why we are all flocking to these seemingly high priced tools Festool has hooked us on. What must the Germans selling these wonderful tools to us think! We are so used to poorly made products that we are all easily blown away by the quality you find in many German products. I've always loved my Bosch jig saw, & I know most of us do!
Now, is it me or what? I long for the care & respect of craft that once mattered.
BTW Take a look at the fit & finish of many "mansions" in this country. Mini or Maxi, caulk is the be all & end all for some tradesmen, or so it seems. Why learn to scribe fit? LOL . Oh & it is time to put down the liquid nails. What is going to happen when they try to fix any of this stuff in 50 years or so? It will not come apart at he glue joints! That is for sure.
Look at the woodwork in any first class hotel built recently. These are faux palaces. Don't be surprised if a drawer face falls off in a 70,000 dollar kitchen, I'm told that is what punch lists are for. I'm mad as hell & I'm not going to take it anym......... Sorry, I digress
James Krenov once questioned, in a book, why it should be so difficult to sell a fine quality coffee table for an appropriate price. People gasp at the idea of a $1500.00 coffee table. Most would feel that's about $1300.00 too much. But not for high quality woodwork. That table would outlast 20 "IKEA" tables. Sorry for the four letter word. ;D You'll see that table age like a fine wine, & become an heirloom. It will live long & serve well. You'll hear & feel quality every time you place an item on it's surface. That's a bargain, yet not in our dispoable society.
I will pay for the quality in a tool that will last my lifetime. I only buy older antique Stanley hand planes. Never the new planes. I got a stanley #5, 15 years ago, in an antique shop. It had the original sweetheart blade (laminated steel) & was from about 1910. It had a patina on it that spoke age & quality. The original owners initials are in the rosewood grip. It is one of my favorites, & after much use in my shop shows no further signs of age. It is a tool designed to not only last, but impress for a long, long time. Someday I might just have been the second or third to own it in a line of 8-10 craftsmen. It will have produced many beatiful things. Now, that is a fine hand tool & may just survive through many craftsmen. I don't expect that from any power tool though. All I ask is for it to outlast me :-\
Thank you Festool.
New Product Info
- Thread starter Administrator_JSVN
- Start date
Oh - help me! Spent some quality time really looking at the new tools and all the features. I am in real trouble. Wish we had detailed pricing. Am I correct that the 2200 router is $800 without the bases? If so, it is probably another $300 for that!! The new MFT seems to be much nicer - better built at least in the top works. Gotta go sell one of my cars to be able to purchase these!!!!!!!!! Pete
Pete,
Quick, buy the OF 2000 while you can. I think it's about $430.00 & it is a pure beast. I love it & don't need all the features of the OF 2200. The OF 2000 is heavy enough & at $370.00 less than the OF 2200, a bargain. Forget the bells & whistles. This is not an every day router. Hurry, before it's too late.
I wonder why they didn't include a laser thingy to aline the cut :
Quick, buy the OF 2000 while you can. I think it's about $430.00 & it is a pure beast. I love it & don't need all the features of the OF 2200. The OF 2000 is heavy enough & at $370.00 less than the OF 2200, a bargain. Forget the bells & whistles. This is not an every day router. Hurry, before it's too late.
I wonder why they didn't include a laser thingy to aline the cut :
Timmy C said:
Tim,
Wow that's alot of change. I gotta believe I could get a shaper for the cost of the OF 2200 & all desireables! Really, you're talking $1200.00 my man. I know I can get a small shaper at that amount. My OF 2000 E plus set me back only $475.00. Isn't the OF 2000 B only like $430.00 right now?
Terp, the B is $430 and it is a hog. I agree that you can get a free standing shaper for about that cost...probably less!! However, it would be tough to turn the thing upside down. It would cost a ton to hire a couple of guys to hold it The 3+ inch bit capability is nice....might need some body armor, but the thing will do it.
I agree that it is not an everyday type router. However, the production aspects both in the production shop, and in the field. The one-man-band in the field doing raised panel doors in the back of a trailer could do well with this machine. 23 doors can get pricey in some parts of the country.
Solid Surface dudes are all over this thing as well. The dust extraction is worth it's weight in gold; and many will "seam" with a router, and are looking forward to the power and accuracy of the big mamba jamba.
Shane should have put the theme song to "Shaft" on the video on the Micro Site.
Timmy
The 3+ inch bit capability is nice....might need some body armor, but the thing will do it. I agree that it is not an everyday type router. However, the production aspects both in the production shop, and in the field. The one-man-band in the field doing raised panel doors in the back of a trailer could do well with this machine. 23 doors can get pricey in some parts of the country.
Solid Surface dudes are all over this thing as well. The dust extraction is worth it's weight in gold; and many will "seam" with a router, and are looking forward to the power and accuracy of the big mamba jamba.
Shane should have put the theme song to "Shaft" on the video on the Micro Site.
Timmy
Dixon Peer
Member
- Joined
- Apr 17, 2007
- Messages
- 169
Timmy C said:Terp, the B is $430 and it is a hog. I agree that you can get a free standing shaper for about that cost...probably less!! However, it would be tough to turn the thing upside down. It would cost a ton to hire a couple of guys to hold it
I agree that it is not an everyday type router. However, the production aspects both in the production shop, and in the field. The one-man-band in the field doing raised panel doors in the back of a trailer could do well with this machine. 23 doors can get pricey in some parts of the country.
Solid Surface dudes are all over this thing as well. The dust extraction is worth it's weight in gold; and many will "seam" with a router, and are looking forward to the power and accuracy of the big mamba jamba.
Shane should have put the theme song to "Shaft" on the video on the Micro Site.
Timmy
What????
Dixon Peer said:Timmy C said:Terp, the B is $430 and it is a hog. I agree that you can get a free standing shaper for about that cost...probably less!! However, it would be tough to turn the thing upside down. It would cost a ton to hire a couple of guys to hold it
I agree that it is not an everyday type router. However, the production aspects both in the production shop, and in the field. The one-man-band in the field doing raised panel doors in the back of a trailer could do well with this machine. 23 doors can get pricey in some parts of the country.
Solid Surface dudes are all over this thing as well. The dust extraction is worth it's weight in gold; and many will "seam" with a router, and are looking forward to the power and accuracy of the big mamba jamba.
Shane should have put the theme song to "Shaft" on the video on the Micro Site.
Timmy
What????
The OF 2000 B is $430
You could probably find a good shaper for less than $1200; however, you probably wouldn't be able to turn it upside down by yourself
The OF 2200 would be very helpful to a one or two person operation, especially if they were doing some raised panel doors in a medium sized kitchen; rather than sub-ing the doors out to a shop.
There are many Solid Surface fabricators that are anxious to get this router for it's power and dust collection capabilities. Not to mention, many will "seam" (put two pieces together) by using their router.
In my opinion, Shane Holland of FestoolUSA should have put the Theme Song to the old show "Shaft", with Richard Roundtree to the OF 2200 video on the Festool MicroSite.
Tim
I bought the OF 2000 for a project that requires 3/4" x 7/8" dadoes in white oak. It is a beast & just what i needed for this.
I loved "Shaft"! Now when I pick up the OF 2000 I can hum the theme song ;D
Oh one more thing, a joke, I hope. How many Festoolians does it take to operate a small shaper? : LOL
I loved "Shaft"! Now when I pick up the OF 2000 I can hum the theme song ;D
Oh one more thing, a joke, I hope. How many Festoolians does it take to operate a small shaper? :
LOL
- Joined
- Jan 22, 2007
- Messages
- 1,134
Dave Rudy said:
Timmy C said:
Hi,
Granted the prices are way up there. $800 USD a router is a LOT. But does anyone own a Festool power tool that did not cost 2 - 3 times the price of a similar tool in another major brand at the time it was purchased? I mean isn't $400 (OF1400) a lot for a router in that mid size power range? Why would you pay $260 USD for a ROS? In reality that should be just as much of a sticker shock
I think the sticker shock has more to do with it being Eight Hundred Dollars than its comparitive value to other brands.Seth
Oh yes, there was sticker shock when I made my first Festool purchase & all the rest. I've thrownout alot of other power tools over the years that just could not perform. I'll pay a premium for the pleasure of years of service. Time will tell if I've been correct, but I like the feel of these tools very much.
The Domino, for instance, fits right into my arsenal. I have, for many years, used biscuit joiners & have developed many applications for it since I first saw one in 1982. The Domino as radical as it seems is the same device in my hand. All my tricks & techniques cross over & I love that.
I'ts also a heavy & firm feeling device. Like it has power & can handle being used. I really like this new addition. My biscuit machine is a Dewalt & while I have had it for 14 years now, I think maybe it is the oldest one in N.A. ;D No, seriously, it is that old, but I have babied it always. I never loan it out & it has really only been used by me. I bought a 5mm blade for my table saw to rip kerfs in hard woods for the biscuits. That way I only use the Dewalt on the plywood edges, as one example of treating that machine with care. Have you ever heard the motor on a Dewalt biscuit joiner.
You may have always wondered why the Lamello is 2-3 times as much as the competitor machines, It also is a heavier & tougher machine. I never paid for one of those though, I have just protected the Dewalt.
Anyway, I'm off track here, but, as for the sticker shock. I got over it for the shear pleasure of using these tools I've gotten. But I think $800.00 buys a small shaper. Another $400.00, for the OF 2200 accessories kit, could certainly cover a stock feeder for that shaper. You see where I'm going here?
I just bought the OF 2000 & I love it. This is the best large,... largest, plunge router I've ever held & run. I say go buy it if you're on the fence. It is only $430.00 right now for the router alone. The edge guide is only $131.00. The Of 2000 is all you'll ever need in a top router for your shop.
I do all types of woodwork & I'll only use this router occasionally. It's a great tool for it's purpose. If you throw too large a bit in this machine though you will wish you HAD a shaper! The extra 1/4 hp, I don't need it that bad. The other upgrades all look great, yet I don't feel they are that neccessary. I'm real skeptical about the removable base plates. They look real thin, & I don't like too many little parts on something like this. I'm sure we'll soon see the day when routers have a laser, too align the cut!. Oh wait, have we already seen that option on routers? I wouldn't pay for that feature either.
Remember, a router is really a simple & therfore useful device. A direct drive motor in your hand is what it is. Add the chuck & the router bit, Then adapt it too any position you need, right. I have designed & built so many fences, tables, jigs, swing arms, angle jigs....... you name it, for all my routers over the years. It is the beauty of these devices. Beware the clutter on this type of machine, certainly one this large. You'll need to be able to hold it & control it.
Keep it simple.
BTW, I have the OF 2000 so I don't need to consider the OF2200. If I had too, I see that as a real powerful, & well built mahine. In the future we'll all have to deal with these higher prices. I'd buy that router next year if I need it's power, & didn't already own the OF2000. But right now, today, I really recommend the OF 2000. It's all you'll most probably ever need.
I do think the MFT3 shows great improvements. I may jump on that & I never saw myself with the MFT in my shop before. That price doesn't freak me out either, though it should My only concern with it is the point where the aluminum rail makes contact with the steel locking device at the front. There is a tab to register the rail to the locking device, which settles into the slot in the rail, to align it. I noticed on a display MFT 1080 that the rail showed damage, fatigue, from the action of these dissimilar metals making contact. Seems to me like the "tab" should be a replaceable & sacrificial item. Has anyone noticed this as a problem? Is it a problem? ???
This display model was probably be used for demos for a while, yet I know I'd certainly put it through the paces just square cutting cabinet parts ripped on my tablesaw. Any thoughts?
The Domino, for instance, fits right into my arsenal. I have, for many years, used biscuit joiners & have developed many applications for it since I first saw one in 1982. The Domino as radical as it seems is the same device in my hand. All my tricks & techniques cross over & I love that.
I'ts also a heavy & firm feeling device. Like it has power & can handle being used. I really like this new addition. My biscuit machine is a Dewalt & while I have had it for 14 years now, I think maybe it is the oldest one in N.A. ;D No, seriously, it is that old, but I have babied it always. I never loan it out & it has really only been used by me. I bought a 5mm blade for my table saw to rip kerfs in hard woods for the biscuits. That way I only use the Dewalt on the plywood edges, as one example of treating that machine with care. Have you ever heard the motor on a Dewalt biscuit joiner.
You may have always wondered why the Lamello is 2-3 times as much as the competitor machines, It also is a heavier & tougher machine. I never paid for one of those though, I have just protected the Dewalt. Anyway, I'm off track here, but, as for the sticker shock. I got over it for the shear pleasure of using these tools I've gotten. But I think $800.00 buys a small shaper. Another $400.00, for the OF 2200 accessories kit, could certainly cover a stock feeder for that shaper. You see where I'm going here?
I just bought the OF 2000 & I love it. This is the best large,... largest, plunge router I've ever held & run. I say go buy it if you're on the fence. It is only $430.00 right now for the router alone. The edge guide is only $131.00. The Of 2000 is all you'll ever need in a top router for your shop.
I do all types of woodwork & I'll only use this router occasionally. It's a great tool for it's purpose. If you throw too large a bit in this machine though you will wish you HAD a shaper! The extra 1/4 hp, I don't need it that bad. The other upgrades all look great, yet I don't feel they are that neccessary. I'm real skeptical about the removable base plates. They look real thin, & I don't like too many little parts on something like this. I'm sure we'll soon see the day when routers have a laser, too align the cut!
. Oh wait, have we already seen that option on routers? I wouldn't pay for that feature either.Remember, a router is really a simple & therfore useful device. A direct drive motor in your hand is what it is. Add the chuck & the router bit, Then adapt it too any position you need, right. I have designed & built so many fences, tables, jigs, swing arms, angle jigs....... you name it, for all my routers over the years. It is the beauty of these devices. Beware the clutter on this type of machine, certainly one this large. You'll need to be able to hold it & control it.
Keep it simple.
BTW, I have the OF 2000 so I don't need to consider the OF2200. If I had too, I see that as a real powerful, & well built mahine. In the future we'll all have to deal with these higher prices. I'd buy that router next year if I need it's power, & didn't already own the OF2000. But right now, today, I really recommend the OF 2000. It's all you'll most probably ever need.
I do think the MFT3 shows great improvements. I may jump on that & I never saw myself with the MFT in my shop before. That price doesn't freak me out either, though it should
My only concern with it is the point where the aluminum rail makes contact with the steel locking device at the front. There is a tab to register the rail to the locking device, which settles into the slot in the rail, to align it. I noticed on a display MFT 1080 that the rail showed damage, fatigue, from the action of these dissimilar metals making contact. Seems to me like the "tab" should be a replaceable & sacrificial item. Has anyone noticed this as a problem? Is it a problem? ???This display model was probably be used for demos for a while, yet I know I'd certainly put it through the paces just square cutting cabinet parts ripped on my tablesaw. Any thoughts?
No matter how good any product may be, there is a point where consumer price resistance will be met. The price of the OF 2200, including the accessories, may just test that point for many of even the most dedicated Festoolians.
If I were to compare price alone, my Porter Cable 7518 is a well made, and very powerful router, and it only cost me $320.00 (okay, over $1000 with all the Bench Dog extras). However, I'm not sure that such a comparison is completely fair. The 7518 is an industrial grade machine (and not so pretty), and its most important feature is probably that the base easily slips off so it can be mounted in a table lift. On the other hand, I don't know why anyone would buy such a beautiful machine as the OF 2200 and hide it under a table.
Having said that, when it comes to smaller, less powerful routers, I'm perfectly happy to let the table hold the material while I hold the router. But when the job requires one of the bigger brutes, I'll hold the material and gladly let the table hang on to the router.
John
If I were to compare price alone, my Porter Cable 7518 is a well made, and very powerful router, and it only cost me $320.00 (okay, over $1000 with all the Bench Dog extras). However, I'm not sure that such a comparison is completely fair. The 7518 is an industrial grade machine (and not so pretty), and its most important feature is probably that the base easily slips off so it can be mounted in a table lift. On the other hand, I don't know why anyone would buy such a beautiful machine as the OF 2200 and hide it under a table.
Having said that, when it comes to smaller, less powerful routers, I'm perfectly happy to let the table hold the material while I hold the router. But when the job requires one of the bigger brutes, I'll hold the material and gladly let the table hang on to the router.
John
Exactly,
The 7518 is a great example. $320.00 For that router with it's fixed, yet thoroughly adaptable type base. Plunge routers are different tools, & therefore worth a little more. You want a fixed base for some things, as it has a lower center of gravity. I can hold & guide the PC 7518 with one hand very comfortably. That's not the case with my OF 2000. It's a two fister for sure. ;D
I find the OF 2000 price right in line for the added feature of the plunge action alone. It's only $110.00 more than the PC 7518.
Now for a router table, don't use a plunge router. It's spring loaded to push down, when mounted in a table. Pushing up on the router requires someone to sit on the table for you.. I can't do that as I am only a one man shop. Wait, honey can you come into the shop for a momoent?
As far as an expensive adjustable device under the router table. I use the fixed base, of which I have several. Ditto for the smaller PC flat tops. They are attached to many of my jigs for speed of setup. Masking tape on the side of the router motor will allow use to use a small scale rule to adjust the routermotor in relationship to the base, under the table. Just make a first test cut close to your final position & adjust from there. Two or three test cuts & adjustmnets & you're as accurate as can be, & need to be. I make very fine adjustments this way.
We're not machinists, but woodworkers.
I once worked with a man who ran only the moulder in a large cabinet shop where I was a bench mechanic & layout man. I had requested a load of a particular stick mold from him at 1-9/16" cross section, in one direction or another. He always had to use this very expensive micrometer that worked in thousands of an inch, & he swore by that device. I found it fussy, something for a machinist & not for a woodworker. He could barely read the ruler anyway ;D
Well, It took forever & when I finally got the material at the bench, it was really needed. It was also wrong. It measured 1- 17/32" in cross section, not the specified 1-9/16". Not good.
Now I know I'm anal, in that I am a fine woodworker :-\, but I can't lose a 32nd of an inch like that, really not in any of the parts of my work. We all know how 8 slightly small items across the front of a unit compounds. 8 small parts combined, make the whole 8 times smaller than than the individual parts. 8 times that 1/32" is 1/4".
I say just stick with the ruler, Imperial in my case. Also, it started out with him telling me I wasn't being accurate enough without the fancy micrometer. But he couldn't recognize a 32nd of an inch in all those thousands of an inch.
Look I have enough trouble swinging from the imperial to the metric, but I cope with it. I learned to use the same ruler throughout a project & to keep that pencil sharp.
Keep it simple!
The 7518 is a great example. $320.00 For that router with it's fixed, yet thoroughly adaptable type base. Plunge routers are different tools, & therefore worth a little more. You want a fixed base for some things, as it has a lower center of gravity. I can hold & guide the PC 7518 with one hand very comfortably. That's not the case with my OF 2000. It's a two fister for sure. ;D
I find the OF 2000 price right in line for the added feature of the plunge action alone. It's only $110.00 more than the PC 7518.
Now for a router table, don't use a plunge router. It's spring loaded to push down, when mounted in a table. Pushing up on the router requires someone to sit on the table for you.
. I can't do that as I am only a one man shop. Wait, honey can you come into the shop for a momoent?As far as an expensive adjustable device under the router table. I use the fixed base, of which I have several. Ditto for the smaller PC flat tops. They are attached to many of my jigs for speed of setup. Masking tape on the side of the router motor will allow use to use a small scale rule to adjust the routermotor in relationship to the base, under the table. Just make a first test cut close to your final position & adjust from there. Two or three test cuts & adjustmnets & you're as accurate as can be, & need to be. I make very fine adjustments this way.
We're not machinists, but woodworkers.
I once worked with a man who ran only the moulder in a large cabinet shop where I was a bench mechanic & layout man. I had requested a load of a particular stick mold from him at 1-9/16" cross section, in one direction or another. He always had to use this very expensive micrometer that worked in thousands of an inch, & he swore by that device. I found it fussy, something for a machinist & not for a woodworker. He could barely read the ruler anyway ;D
Well, It took forever & when I finally got the material at the bench, it was really needed. It was also wrong. It measured 1- 17/32" in cross section, not the specified 1-9/16". Not good.
Now I know I'm anal, in that I am a fine woodworker :-\, but I can't lose a 32nd of an inch like that, really not in any of the parts of my work. We all know how 8 slightly small items across the front of a unit compounds. 8 small parts combined, make the whole 8 times smaller than than the individual parts. 8 times that 1/32" is 1/4".
I say just stick with the ruler, Imperial in my case.
Also, it started out with him telling me I wasn't being accurate enough without the fancy micrometer. But he couldn't recognize a 32nd of an inch in all those thousands of an inch.Look I have enough trouble swinging from the imperial to the metric, but I cope with it. I learned to use the same ruler throughout a project & to keep that pencil sharp.
Keep it simple!
Tom the Remodeler
Member
- Joined
- Dec 30, 2007
- Messages
- 1,106
John, if you were to go out and purchase another router lift would you get the Bench Dog again? I am looking at manufacturing some six panel interior oak doors in the next year or so, and need to get a 3hp-class router to raise the panels and fabricate the styles and rails. I currently own the Bench Dog Protop Contractor, and am looking at pairing it with a Milwaukee 56254 router, and maybe a lift. Brice has that configuration, and it sounds like it's been a real workhorse for him, and I'm just curious what your experiences have been with the ProLift? Thanks!!
Tom Gensmer said:
Tom, I'm very happy with the ProLift. I originally ordered it soley because it is designed to fit my 7518 (and they do fit beautifully together), but it will adapt to most major brands. When it arrived I was pleasantly surprised by the quality of construction, and the tight fit of all moving parts. Very small adjustments are no problem at all. And those cast cooling-fins do seem to help with heat dissapation, since my router is mounted in a relatively small compartment. I mounted it on a Bench Dog cast iron table top, mainly because I felt the top would stay flatter longer. Not sure if it's really better than the others, but it came machined VERY flat and has stayed that way so far.
John
Terp said:
I had an automotive machine shop for many years, and old habits do die hard. But on the upside, while the smallest screw-ups on engines or transmissions can make for very expensive disasters, if you are a little too anal with tolerances in woodworking, you can still screw up a little and the results will likely still be much better than average.
Terp said:
For years I specialized in cars made in Germany and later moved to cars made in Japan. I was forced to jump back and forth between inches and millimeters all day, every day. I only speak one language, but I imagine it's the much the same for those who speak two on a regular basis. Do it long enough and you get to where you think in both almost simultaneously.
There's no question that a system where you can divide everything by 10 is much better than one that uses 12 or 16. But I doubt that any of us in the U.S will see a complete change to the metric system in our lifetimes, so "dual" thinking is our best alternative.
John
Similar threads
