New to metric but not to Festool - need advice for measuring

[bwehman]

Been in the Festool eco system for several years but finally with the purchase of the parallel guides, of all things, decided to fully commit to metric. I know it shouldn't make a difference in theory, but for some reason I feel like metric necessitates more precision.

That being said, for lengths longer than 12" I've been using a FastCap metric tape measure with a flat tape. Thing is, the measurement can be millimeters off depending on how square the end of the tape measure is on the reference surface, and when I'm trying to nail the position of a domino, it matters.

What is everyone else using? I guess one option is an army of T-squares and rulers?

 

[woodbutcherbower]

Ive always felt that for the North American woodworker, being introduced to the metric scale must be like learning a foreign language. For Brits, Europeans and Scandinavians - it’s a common language we all speak. We can easily point out the flaws in the Imperial system - but it’s what you guys have grown up with, it’s what you know, and what you are comfortable with.

The greatest single advantage of metric, however, is its linearity. Everything  - like EVERYTHING -  can be measured in mm rather than yards, feet, inches, halves, quarters, eighths, sixteenths, thirty-seconds and sixty-fourths. There’s virtually zero math involved when you need to add two bizarre lengths together, for example = for us, it’s just 242 + 147 = 389. The Imperial equivalent of that would inevitably involve a world of fractions. I couldn’t imagine subtracting 4 and 3/8ths from 12 and 17/32nds all day long.

To answer your question = a quality square-ended tape is a must - a good one will give accurate measurements in almost every case. For most applications involving accurate short-scale measurements - high-quality steel rules are your best friend, usually bought over here as a set of four - 1000/600/300/100. Check out the UK Axminster Tools website. There’s some beautiful stuff on there and they ship worldwide.

Oh - and just in case anyone thinks I’m being metrically evangelical - yeah, we’re TOTALLY metric in the UK. Apart from the inconvenient truths that we drink our beer in pints, we measure our fuel consumption in miles per gallon, when asked for directions we say ‘turn right in 100 yards’, our railway track gauge is 4 feet 8.5 inches, we still go into stores and ask for 4 ounces of our favourite candy, we buy pints of milk, we weigh ourselves using stones and pounds, and measure our height in feet and inches.

But an 8’ x 4’ sheet of plywood? NO !! It’s 2440 x 1220mm !!!!

Good luck in your new world.

 

[afish]

If you do any cabinet work the fastcap tru32 is nice.  I had a matching scale on my table saw too.  I liked both. 

 

[guybo]

Hi, I have one of each of these and 300,600,and 900mm wp rule w/rulestops

 

[rst]

Like guybo,I have those two tapes.  In addition I use Wiha one and three meter folders and a Tajima combo tape for work.

 

[4nthony]

That being said, for lengths longer than 12" I've been using a FastCap metric tape measure with a flat tape. Thing is, the measurement can be millimeters off depending on how square the end of the tape measure is on the reference surface, and when I'm trying to nail the position of a domino, it matters.

How are you marking your domino layouts? Are you measuring each side of the mortise independently?

It all depends on your material and what you're building but you should be able to rely on the accuracy of the machine along with a combination of tight and loose mortises to nail pretty much every domino.

What is everyone else using? I guess one option is an army of T-squares and rulers?

For lengths over 12", I use a 600mm T-square along with a 900mm rule. I've also got a few metric tapes (3m Hultafors and a couple yellow FastCaps) that come in handy.

I've recently switched to metric and my main problem is that I still think in imperial for some lengths.  Having measuring and layout tools that have both metric and imperial is a nice convenience.

 

[Birdhunter]

I keep a FastCap tape measure in each of my 3 shop areas. Each unit has both Imperial and metric scales. I’m kind of ambidextrous re Imperial and metric. I use both although I usually think in Imperial.

For tight measurements, I use either Starrett or Woodpecker rules and squares. Have them in each system.

With Dominos, I just use pencil marks and the narrow to wide technique. My pencil marks are usually made on blue tape and not the wood. It’s easier to peal off the tape than erase the lead.

I am a heavy user of story sticks for repeating measurements. Saves time and reduces errors. I do a lot of trial fits using scrap wood.

 

[tomktest]

For longer lengths I’ve been using the Festool branded stabila folding rule. I have a fastcap combination metric imperial tape but it is useless half the time because you don’t get metric marks on both sides of a face.

 

[woodbutcherbower]

I've recently switched to metric and my main problem is that I still think in imperial for some lengths.  Having measuring and layout tools that have both metric and imperial is a nice convenience.

There’s nothing wrong with thinking in two different scales - in fact, it can be a help as you say. We’ve been metric in the UK for decades, but most woodworkers (both pro and amateur) do exactly the same thing, especially guys of my age group who were taught Imperial at school. Even now, I still find myself rough-cutting material to 6ft. long, before then trimming to accurate finished size in mm.

Edited to add - just in case it’s not common knowledge in NA, to convert from inches to mm, you multiply by 25.4 = so a foot-long piece of material is 12 x 25.4. = 304.8mm, usually rounded up to 305 in everyday use.

For fractional lengths such as 12 and 3/8 inches - firstly divide the fraction to express it as a decimal. So 3/8 = 0.375. So your piece is 12.375 inches long x 25.4 = 314.3mm, usually rounded down to 314mm as above.

 

[rmwarren]

[member=60792]bwehman[/member] welcome to the club.  [welcome]

I can echo most everything stated by the other posters, & once you make the leap to thinking in base 10 it's difficult to go back to cubits, bushels and furlongs. It even creeps into my cooking.

To respond to your question, I'd recommend a combo of quality tapes and rules from a source like Axminster. There is another thread on the FOG relating to classes of tape measures, which led me to them and they have a number of options.

Treat your fine woodworking tape well, and use other tapes for situations where you will bang it around. Even class 1 tapes will fail if you bend the hook.

Axminster also has some nice satin stainless rules that I find easy to read the 1.0 & 0.5mm graduations of.

Enjoy the newfound rationality.

RMW

 

[twistsol1]

I switched to metric in my shop about 10 years ago and have finally started thinking in metric rather than imperial. Old dogs can learn new tricks, it just takes us longer.

I use both the Fast Cap True 32 tape and a Festool branded folding rule. I find the folding rule to be more accurate. With the tape, I'm off by about 1.5mm if I measure by pushing against a surface vs hooking it over the end. All the scales in the shop, stops for the Kapex, table saw fence, etc. are calibrated to the folding rule. Story sticks which I use frequently are also verified against this rule as well.

Before I got the folding rule, dealing with tape slop just meant thinking about how I measured and measuring the stops the same way. If I hooked the tape over the end of something, when setting the stop, I'd put a piece of scrap against the stop and hook the tape over the scrap. If pushing when taking the measurement, I'd push the tape end against the stop.

For me, it isn't as much about precision as consistency. 768mm vs 770mm doesn't matter as long as whatever I decide is 768mm is the same every time.

 

[afish]

AND then there's the 3rd system of using decimals.  I tend to use a mix of imperial and metric for measuring and then draw everything in autocad in imperial decimal.  I wish my cad program allowed me to input metric units when drawing in imperial and it would automatically do the conversion. Even though I know the the decimal equivalent down to 1/16th out to 3 places off the top of my head I dont have my metric equivalents down yet so I have to use a cheat sheet for the most common metric sizes

5mm = .1969
8mm = .315
9.5mm = .374
15.5mm = .610
20mm = .7874
32mm = 1.2598
36mm = 1.417
36.5mm = 1.437
37mm = 1.457
46.5mm = 1.831
49mm = 1.9291
96mm = 3.7795

 

[pixelated]

I use a metric folding rule for most measuring that isn't general carpentry. I have two, one I bought during a business trip to Germany in the '90's, and another came from Lee Valley a couple of years ago. For really precise work I use a WP 600mm rule.

I go back and forth quite a lot between systems, especially with carpentry type projects. My shed is nominally 10x10 feet, but actually is 300x300 cm. [smile]

 

[tsmi243]

Oh - and just in case anyone thinks I’m being metrically evangelical - yeah, we’re TOTALLY metric in the UK. Apart from the inconvenient truths that we drink our beer in pints, we measure our fuel consumption in miles per gallon, when asked for directions we say ‘turn right in 100 yards’, our railway track gauge is 4 feet 8.5 inches, we still go into stores and ask for 4 ounces of our favourite candy, we buy pints of milk, we weigh ourselves using stones and pounds, and measure our height in feet and inches.

That's the nice thing about standardized systems..... there's so many to choose from!

 

[Kiki231]

I have been using a pair of Starrett metric rules for reference for over 20 years. They do not leave the shop and are only used to verify my tapes and working rules-- both of which are reasonably accurate. I have recently tried the True32 flat tape from Fastcap , and am pleasantly surprised at how it is bang on with my Starrett. I tend to go easy on the retraction so as not to slam the tip (which is fixed on the "flat" tape).
One thing to keep in mind is that consistency equals accuracy -- specifically consistent measuring devices. If you use the same tape or ruler for the entire job, they are consistent and the units (metric or imperial) aren't critical, as the error in the tape will be consistent across your work.

 

[woodbutcherbower]

Oh - and just in case anyone thinks I’m being metrically evangelical - yeah, we’re TOTALLY metric in the UK. Apart from the inconvenient truths that we drink our beer in pints, we measure our fuel consumption in miles per gallon, when asked for directions we say ‘turn right in 100 yards’, our railway track gauge is 4 feet 8.5 inches, we still go into stores and ask for 4 ounces of our favourite candy, we buy pints of milk, we weigh ourselves using stones and pounds, and measure our height in feet and inches.

That's the nice thing about standardized systems..... there's so many to choose from!

[big grin] [big grin] I visited the yard this morning to collect half a dozen doors and a pile of timber for an upcoming job. In the queue in front of me was a DIY guy pricing up materials for a home project. I swear the following conversation is EXACTLY how it happened;

Customer - “What sizes do your MDF sheets come in?”
Yard - “10x5, 8x4 and 6x3”.
Customer - Ah, OK. What thicknesses do you carry in stock?”
Yard - “25mm, 18mm, 15mm, 12mm, 9mm and 6mm.”
Customer - “I’ll need some skirtings (US = baseboards). What sizes do you carry in each profile?”
Yard - “5 inch, 7 inch and 9 inch. All 18mm thick”.
Customer - “What lengths do they come in?”
Yard - “5.4 metre, 4.8 metre, 3.6 metre and 2.4 metre.”
Customer - “Finally, I’ll need fence posts. What do you carry?”
Yard - “4”x4”, 5”x5” and 6”x6”. All in 3-metre lengths”.

[eek] [eek]

 

[Steve1]

... for lengths longer than 12" I've been using a FastCap metric tape measure with a flat tape. Thing is, the measurement can be millimeters off depending on how square the end of the tape measure is on the reference surface,

I don't get it.
Of course your tape measure has to be laid parallel to the measurement axis.  If this is difficult near the center of the board, measure and mark along the top edge of the board, and another mark along the bottom of the board, then complete the line with a straight edge.
How is this a metric vs inch issue ?

 

[Kpp80202]

For longer lengths I’ve been using the Festool branded stabila folding rule.

^ this

 

[Mini Me]

Back in the late 1970's I had a rude introduction to metric when the plans for my workshop arrived all in metric and me then having to buy new tapes and learn a new language so to speak. Looking back it was the best way to convert as I had no choice and I have never reverted to imperial except for one thing and that if someone asks me how tall I am I answer in imperial! Buy some good tapes and rules, Steel rules and BMI Quickies as shown above are my go to measuring devices in the workshop and Hultafors longer tapes outside it. The Quickie comes in two lengths 2 & 3 Metre, the 3 metre used to be both imperial and metric but now seems to be in metric only.

 

[semenza]

But an 8’ x 4’ sheet of plywood? NO !! It’s 2440 x 1220mm !!!!

Good luck in your new world.

No, that's backwards,  it's 4' x 8' .  [smile]

Seth