Fred, you'll be happy to know that several of the workmen who were reconstructing my house over the last 2 months thought I was a Festool salesman, given the way I was singing their praises. At least the floor guy brought in a TS55 at one point. No other Festools in sight. I was wishing the drywall guy had a Planex...
Newbie cost justification
- Thread starter b_m_hart
- Start date
Poto, you are now completely off thumbscrews but it is conditional just watch your posts young man. 
BOY can I understand wanting the drywall guy to be using the Planex. Did you tell him about it. I have only watched the video of it and have never actually seen it work in person but it looks amazing. 8) Fred
BOY can I understand wanting the drywall guy to be using the Planex. Did you tell him about it. I have only watched the video of it and have never actually seen it work in person but it looks amazing. 8) FredWoodenfish said:b_m_hart said:What I do see, is the cabinets that I've got, which would cost me about $15k - 20K to replace if I bought them retail (after their 55% discount, which is still a racket). The quality isn't anything approaching impressive. I'm sure I could chew through a buck or two worth of lumber and supplies, and learn how to make as good, if not better quality cabinets. Maybe I'm fooling myself, but if I'm going to invest a bunch of money in tools, I don't really have much of a choice but to learn how to at that point
I'm not trying to insult you but you come across as incredibly naive as to what it costs to build and complete quality kitchen cabinetry.
I should come across as completely naive - as I've already explicitly stated that I know nothing about it. Any feedback you can provide would be very helpful in that department
Steve Jones
Member
- Joined
- Dec 23, 2007
- Messages
- 405
everything you've heard so far is valid, with the possible exception of the Domino, not that it's great machine but it's a hefty investment for the minimal advantage or use you'll get out of it for one kitchen, you can manage just as well without.
What I would suggest given you're professed lack of experience is to purchase a full set of cheap materials at least enough to make your biggest or most complicated cabinet, then build it, you will learn all kinds of things from your mockup, (whether you want to try the 32 standard or something simpler, whether you want to try 5 piece or slab doors, hardware considerations, etc)
Then build the real kitchen based on that experience, I promise you the investment in time and materials will pay off (I build cabinets for a living), when you build the real thing, do NOT get your materials from the local big box (Home depot or Lowes) go find your local quality cabinet shop supplier (they'll be listed as plywood suppliers) go visit them, introduce yourself, offer to buy the sales guy lunch (time your visit). know how much of what material you need beforehand, you want domestic hardwood plywood, do not accept chinese made plywood, the stuff is flooding the market all over the country and it is so badly made it will mess up your project (I can buy the stuff for half the price of the ply I use and I still won't touch it)
IF you're curious why it's so important to avoid the cheap stuff: It will warp, delaminate, grow odd creases and bumps when you apply finish, the veneer (top surface) is so thin it will splinter when cut or handled leaving large voids in the surface, it is not worth the price saving.
When you get to design time, IE deciding how to construct the cabinets, post another question, there are several of us on here who build cabinets for a living, you'll get all kinds of advice and probably be astonished at how many ways you can construct a simple plywood box.
Mine are 3/4 (domestic birch usually) cases with separate toe kicks, notched on deck and ends for a 1/4" back panel 3/4" in from the back edge, with 3" nailers behind the back panel (costs 1" of depth inside the cabinet but hides the nailers behind the back panel), stretchers are 3" wide made from the same 3/4" material as the cases.
I use standard system 32 spacing on shelf holes and drawer sizes (The Festool system is great for this) I don't follow true 32 standards (or even Blums) because they both use weird spacing for the bottom hole (Which Festool ignores) but the Festool system works simply (I use 16mm offset on the cases, 32mm on the doors, panels are not reversable - you can't flip a left and right door of a pair).
What I would suggest given you're professed lack of experience is to purchase a full set of cheap materials at least enough to make your biggest or most complicated cabinet, then build it, you will learn all kinds of things from your mockup, (whether you want to try the 32 standard or something simpler, whether you want to try 5 piece or slab doors, hardware considerations, etc)
Then build the real kitchen based on that experience, I promise you the investment in time and materials will pay off (I build cabinets for a living), when you build the real thing, do NOT get your materials from the local big box (Home depot or Lowes) go find your local quality cabinet shop supplier (they'll be listed as plywood suppliers) go visit them, introduce yourself, offer to buy the sales guy lunch (time your visit). know how much of what material you need beforehand, you want domestic hardwood plywood, do not accept chinese made plywood, the stuff is flooding the market all over the country and it is so badly made it will mess up your project (I can buy the stuff for half the price of the ply I use and I still won't touch it)
IF you're curious why it's so important to avoid the cheap stuff: It will warp, delaminate, grow odd creases and bumps when you apply finish, the veneer (top surface) is so thin it will splinter when cut or handled leaving large voids in the surface, it is not worth the price saving.
When you get to design time, IE deciding how to construct the cabinets, post another question, there are several of us on here who build cabinets for a living, you'll get all kinds of advice and probably be astonished at how many ways you can construct a simple plywood box.
Mine are 3/4 (domestic birch usually) cases with separate toe kicks, notched on deck and ends for a 1/4" back panel 3/4" in from the back edge, with 3" nailers behind the back panel (costs 1" of depth inside the cabinet but hides the nailers behind the back panel), stretchers are 3" wide made from the same 3/4" material as the cases.
I use standard system 32 spacing on shelf holes and drawer sizes (The Festool system is great for this) I don't follow true 32 standards (or even Blums) because they both use weird spacing for the bottom hole (Which Festool ignores) but the Festool system works simply (I use 16mm offset on the cases, 32mm on the doors, panels are not reversable - you can't flip a left and right door of a pair).
dirtydeeds
Member
- Joined
- Nov 22, 2007
- Messages
- 1,009
steve
if you build the system right, the carcass does flip left and right so do the doors
the only time you cant flip a door is if it has a non symetrical layout, for instance if it has an arched top, or a wider bottom rail
if you build the system right, the carcass does flip left and right so do the doors
the only time you cant flip a door is if it has a non symetrical layout, for instance if it has an arched top, or a wider bottom rail
b_m_hart said:
Bad tools suck sawdust
. You waste material, time and get so frustrated the extra 0 suddenly won't look so bad.I'd recommend the TS55 saw with it's rail for cutting your plywood. I'm using it to breakdown the plywood for my kitchen cabinets and it's fantastic. I also used the guiderail with my DeWalt router to make dados in the side of the pantry.
If you want to save some cash, I'd avoid buying some Festools, like the router, drills and Domino. The domino is very expensive and not really necessary (I don't own one) and other, less expensive routers and drills can get the job done very well. That stuff does resell very well on ebay.
I say to those who will chastise me for my comments on the Domino, we were doing this kind of work long before the $Domino$ came around, it's not necessary to spend that kind of money on one tool.
The MFS table may or may not be a good option for you, but I'd skip the angle attachments as it's well know they are not accurate or repeatable. (Boy has THIS horse been beaten to death!) It has been offered by some that the MFS is a good assembly table (like putting drawers together) and I'd bet it is, you can buy a bunch of good clamping options for it or make your own jigs. Again, it's expensive but maybe a good option for you.
A good, quality bench saw will be awesome for cutting drawer parts. It can't be beat for repetative rips, like drawer parts and face frames. If you buy a dado set you can cut dados and rabets, but those can also be done with a router.
Get a nice sliding collum miter saw for cross cuts, trim and crown molding. I have an older DeWalt but some members have praised their Makitas, I'm not sure of the model. I'd urge you not to buy the Festool Kapex $1,300 is a bit much for one kitchen, save your money for other things.
I've used the Kreg pocket hole jig to join my face frames, wow what a joy it is to use. I originally had the big jig, but sold it and bought the Kreg R3 ($39.00) after using a friends. My special ed kids use it here at school, it's that easy, a a lot cheaper than the Domino.
I have the ETS 125 and it's a joy to use. I purchased a drywall bag and HEPA cartridge filter for my big shopvac and I can sand indoors with no signs of dust.
Also check out McFeely's, they are a great resource for fasteners and tools, plus there are several good Festool dealers regularly online.
My kitchen was priced at $36,000+ by a cabinet shop without counter tops and me installing it. I can build it for less than $4000 in materials ( I already have most of the tools). A good friend does my granite counter tops for his labor only.
A kitchen is a big project, probably not exactly beginner material but you may have the inherent skills anyway (some people are born that way). I'm 3rd generation carpenter, worked in construction and teach woodshop, but you may be more capable than I am.
If you are not familiar with the use of any of these tools I'd urge you to get some good instruction on their use by someone who knows. Also get and use a good pair of safety glasses and use the machine guards.
If an IKEA is near you, you might look at their cabinets.
Steve
Steve Jones said:
If you build yourself your own MFT first (search those threads on this site) you'll learn a lot, have a valuable tool to help build your kitchen and get experience with your tools.
You can also try building cabinets for the garage, basement or utility room first, or even a simple desk for a spare bedroom.
A comment on sanders. Some people have said the RO 150 is a bit overpowered for them and heavy. You certainly don't need this powerful a sander for plywood, it will eat through the veneer in a flash.
If you purchase a router look into a router table. We use them here at school.... they are tough and durable, the kids are very hard on things here. Rockler has a nice one that we use and you could build a nice cabinet to set it on!
Don't let anyone discourage you, we were all naive newbies at one time!
Steve
Jesse Cloud
Member
- Joined
- Jan 23, 2007
- Messages
- 1,746
Great project! The one thing I would caution is to set realistic expectations with the wife on how long it will take.
I like the idea of building a cabinet or two for practice. You will learn a lot and save costly mistakes on the real thing - and wind up with a couple of cabinets for your shop.
A few other thoughts...
Do a lot of reading and thinking. Getting the base cabinets level is not as easy as it sounds, but careful attention there is crucial to success.
If you are going to use Festool, decide from the beginning whether to work with metric measures or imperial ones. Mixing the two and doing conversions will drive you crazy.
Don't cut anything until the plan is absolutely complete in all details.
Make a detailed cutlist and use that to buy materials. Spend the time planning cuts on sheet goods to save $$$. Don't forget to include some scrap. Buy all your face grade plywood at once - different batches can have wildly different looks.
Use that cutlist to plan your work. Mill and cut all pieces of the similar dimensions on the same setup. Saves time and improves accuracy.
Before you start cutting, search this board for "storystick". Make and use one. You will thank me, I guarantee.
Shop around for hardware. Doesn't hurt to ask for a discount. Can your uncle buy for you with his discount??
Here's my take on tools:
TS55, guide rails, and clamps (plain festool F style) are a must. You can probably get by with the mini, but will have to empty it relatively often.
MFT is worth the $$ for improved accuracy of cuts. Read Jerry Work's manual for details on how to square it up.
I like Festool routers, but they don't really do anything that cheaper routers don't. The dust collection is great, however, and routers generate a lot of dust. If you will be routing in the kitchen, go with Festool.
I love the Domino, but for this project a biscuit jointer will save you $600 and work just fine.
I have no use for the Festool drills. If you don't already have one, look at the Makita Li-Ion.
You are good to go on the sanders, but will probably need to buy a lot of paper.
For drawers, you may want a dovetail jig. I have the Festool and love it, but there are cheaper jigs out there that actually fit US practices better (e.g. blind dovetails on 1/2 stock).
Other than Festool, you will need:
Good steel rulers (6 and 24 inches) for machine setup. (see above discussion on metric v. imperial)
A couple of good squares (6 and 12). I recommend Starrett or Lee Valley.
One and only one (if you have 2, throw one away) tape measure. Just one for consistency, they vary a lot.
A set of chisels, and a block plane and some sandpaper to sharpen.
Safety gear (eye and ear protection, dust masks).
A big bottle of ibuprofen.
One last word. Don't worry about buying Festools except for short term cash flow. Used Festools keep their value. After your kitchen project you can sell any Festool you don't love for very close to what you paid for it. Other brands generally sell for about 50% of retail.
I like the idea of building a cabinet or two for practice. You will learn a lot and save costly mistakes on the real thing - and wind up with a couple of cabinets for your shop.
A few other thoughts...
Do a lot of reading and thinking. Getting the base cabinets level is not as easy as it sounds, but careful attention there is crucial to success.
If you are going to use Festool, decide from the beginning whether to work with metric measures or imperial ones. Mixing the two and doing conversions will drive you crazy.
Don't cut anything until the plan is absolutely complete in all details.
Make a detailed cutlist and use that to buy materials. Spend the time planning cuts on sheet goods to save $$$. Don't forget to include some scrap. Buy all your face grade plywood at once - different batches can have wildly different looks.
Use that cutlist to plan your work. Mill and cut all pieces of the similar dimensions on the same setup. Saves time and improves accuracy.
Before you start cutting, search this board for "storystick". Make and use one. You will thank me, I guarantee.
Shop around for hardware. Doesn't hurt to ask for a discount. Can your uncle buy for you with his discount??
Here's my take on tools:
TS55, guide rails, and clamps (plain festool F style) are a must. You can probably get by with the mini, but will have to empty it relatively often.
MFT is worth the $$ for improved accuracy of cuts. Read Jerry Work's manual for details on how to square it up.
I like Festool routers, but they don't really do anything that cheaper routers don't. The dust collection is great, however, and routers generate a lot of dust. If you will be routing in the kitchen, go with Festool.
I love the Domino, but for this project a biscuit jointer will save you $600 and work just fine.
I have no use for the Festool drills. If you don't already have one, look at the Makita Li-Ion.
You are good to go on the sanders, but will probably need to buy a lot of paper.
For drawers, you may want a dovetail jig. I have the Festool and love it, but there are cheaper jigs out there that actually fit US practices better (e.g. blind dovetails on 1/2 stock).
Other than Festool, you will need:
Good steel rulers (6 and 24 inches) for machine setup. (see above discussion on metric v. imperial)
A couple of good squares (6 and 12). I recommend Starrett or Lee Valley.
One and only one (if you have 2, throw one away) tape measure. Just one for consistency, they vary a lot.
A set of chisels, and a block plane and some sandpaper to sharpen.
Safety gear (eye and ear protection, dust masks).
A big bottle of ibuprofen.
One last word. Don't worry about buying Festools except for short term cash flow. Used Festools keep their value. After your kitchen project you can sell any Festool you don't love for very close to what you paid for it. Other brands generally sell for about 50% of retail.
In general I agree with everything said, but I'd say if you are just starting out a Domino may be a little steap of a climb. I have one and love it, but I'd also look at a Kreg Pocket hole set up. You can get in pretty cheap and it make fast work of what you need to do.
My list would be TS55, MFT3, OF1400 and the Kreg. I think that would get you pretty far along to start with. Now if you can justify the extra expense, sure the Domino is a nice. Don't forget you'll need some decent parallel clamps too. I also recommend a good drill, so if you don't have one then get the Festool drill too with attachements, it comes in real handy in cabinet construction and installation.
My list would be TS55, MFT3, OF1400 and the Kreg. I think that would get you pretty far along to start with. Now if you can justify the extra expense, sure the Domino is a nice. Don't forget you'll need some decent parallel clamps too. I also recommend a good drill, so if you don't have one then get the Festool drill too with attachements, it comes in real handy in cabinet construction and installation.
I hadn't even thought of all the miscellaneous odds and ends tools you need also. Squares, rulers, tapes, chisels, hammers, mallots, glue, screws, drill bits, combination bits, driver bits, possibly a brad nailer and air compresser, abrasive papers, finishes, brushes, solvents.... dang, no wonder there's no room in the garage!
I purchased the Jet parallel clamp set earlier this year from Amazon and really love them, they are great for clamping drawers together.
If you do a face frame you might need a bunch of F clamps.... then again maybe not. You'll need a variety of clamps anyway, if only to help hold stuff together for dryfitting. Maybe look at craigslist or auctions for these.
You don't have to do dovetails for the drawers, a GOOD dovetail jig isn't cheap. My 20 YO el cheapo kitchen I'm replacing had stapeled, rabbeted MDF drawers and they have done amazing well. Rabets are a lot faster, easier and cheaper than dovetails, bit don't look nearly so cool. Perhaps when you get to that point your skills might be ready to be ramped up a bit.
Checkout Mark Spagnolos woodwhisper website and watch some of his videos. He's very frank about what works and what doesn't and the videos are pretty good.
I purchased the Jet parallel clamp set earlier this year from Amazon and really love them, they are great for clamping drawers together.
If you do a face frame you might need a bunch of F clamps.... then again maybe not. You'll need a variety of clamps anyway, if only to help hold stuff together for dryfitting. Maybe look at craigslist or auctions for these.
You don't have to do dovetails for the drawers, a GOOD dovetail jig isn't cheap. My 20 YO el cheapo kitchen I'm replacing had stapeled, rabbeted MDF drawers and they have done amazing well. Rabets are a lot faster, easier and cheaper than dovetails, bit don't look nearly so cool. Perhaps when you get to that point your skills might be ready to be ramped up a bit.
Checkout Mark Spagnolos woodwhisper website and watch some of his videos. He's very frank about what works and what doesn't and the videos are pretty good.
Great information so far, thanks all! Just to clarify, I am not planning on re-doing my cabinets *right now*. A little back story - the place I'm currently living in, we are considering whether or not to make it into a rental unit in three or four years. If we do, we'll just leave what we've got after we do our current work. If we decide to stay a bit longer (as in, pop out a rugrat or two), then we'll likely save the new appliances we just bought, and re-do everything to be a bit nicer.
We have yet to add a bathroom and re-do the existing bathroom as well. I intend to make the vanity tops there (something fun, maybe an integral sink concrete countertop), and I figured that the cabinets there would be good first attempts. As mentioned above, I think that I would probably follow the advice of making a test cabinet or two for my "workshop" area.
As far as the cost of things, I'm not really sweating that too much. There are going to be a bunch of projects around the house that I can use to justify a tool here and there. I've also seen first hand just how hard it is to do anything that resembles accurate work with shoddy tools. Fortunately for me, the finish I wanted on my countertops meant that the concrete isn't so much an exact art, as you just need to get the dimensions within a quarter of an inch (over) your final desired, as you have to grind and polish it down anyway.
Cabinets? Yeah, I don't think that slack floating around here and there is such a great idea!
Also mentioned earlier, was the cabinets I was getting, and why they would cost so much. Well, the cabinets that are in my kitchen now are made by Schrock - so we figured we'd find a local dealer, and see what it would cost to get a couple additions (one pantry unit, one base corner unit, one shelfing "book case" unit, and some trim). They wanted obscene amounts of money, I'm talking just shy of $9k list (so just over $4k after their discount) for those three cabinets. Given that there are 16 total cabinets in my kitchen now, and understanding that they aren't all as expensive as the bigger cabinets, I extrapolated to get to the $15k-$20k number.
So, if I dropped $2k-$3k on tools, and "wasted" another $1k on materials to learn on (that's a LOT of cheap plywood!) it seems like it might give me a decent base of knowledge and the hard learned "gotchas" to attempt some of my own cabinetry. It may not turn out perfectly, but if I'm careful, take some time to learn, and do a bunch of research, things will likely turn out OK. At least, that's what I'm taking away from some of the comments so far.
We have yet to add a bathroom and re-do the existing bathroom as well. I intend to make the vanity tops there (something fun, maybe an integral sink concrete countertop), and I figured that the cabinets there would be good first attempts. As mentioned above, I think that I would probably follow the advice of making a test cabinet or two for my "workshop" area.
As far as the cost of things, I'm not really sweating that too much. There are going to be a bunch of projects around the house that I can use to justify a tool here and there. I've also seen first hand just how hard it is to do anything that resembles accurate work with shoddy tools. Fortunately for me, the finish I wanted on my countertops meant that the concrete isn't so much an exact art, as you just need to get the dimensions within a quarter of an inch (over) your final desired, as you have to grind and polish it down anyway.
Cabinets? Yeah, I don't think that slack floating around here and there is such a great idea!
Also mentioned earlier, was the cabinets I was getting, and why they would cost so much. Well, the cabinets that are in my kitchen now are made by Schrock - so we figured we'd find a local dealer, and see what it would cost to get a couple additions (one pantry unit, one base corner unit, one shelfing "book case" unit, and some trim). They wanted obscene amounts of money, I'm talking just shy of $9k list (so just over $4k after their discount) for those three cabinets. Given that there are 16 total cabinets in my kitchen now, and understanding that they aren't all as expensive as the bigger cabinets, I extrapolated to get to the $15k-$20k number.
So, if I dropped $2k-$3k on tools, and "wasted" another $1k on materials to learn on (that's a LOT of cheap plywood!) it seems like it might give me a decent base of knowledge and the hard learned "gotchas" to attempt some of my own cabinetry. It may not turn out perfectly, but if I'm careful, take some time to learn, and do a bunch of research, things will likely turn out OK. At least, that's what I'm taking away from some of the comments so far.
I think your philosophy is brilliant, and I'm wishing I had the time to pursue your path myself.
You've got that right. Skip the cheap tools and go right for the best. You'll save yourself a lot of pain and money in the long run - you'll end up getting the Festools anyway! We've all been through it, I think.
b_m_hart said:
You've got that right. Skip the cheap tools and go right for the best. You'll save yourself a lot of pain and money in the long run - you'll end up getting the Festools anyway! We've all been through it, I think.
- Joined
- Sep 22, 2007
- Messages
- 636
Don't be afraid to tackle the project. I was new to woodworking and jumped right into making my kitchen cabinets. You do have an advantage working for you - someone you know in the business. It's good to have someone like that to run to with questions. There is quite a bit to learn, but it's not that hard.
I would start out with 2 good books on cabinets. "Building Traditional Kitchen Cabinets" by Jim Tolpin, and "Building Kitchen Cabinets" by Udo Schmidt are highly recommended reading. Lots of good advice and ideas on the tools you will need. Then pick up "Understanding Wood Finishing" by Bob Flexner.
Keep in mind you need good, quality hardwood and hardwood plywood. These are not cheap like you see in DIY stores. You also need to understand the terminology associated with buying hardwood so you don't get ripped off. The hardwood lumber can be bought through the internet but the plywood you need to find locally. If you are in a small town, you might have to hit a big city to find what you need. I've been traveling 250 miles to get my plywood.
Next you need to draw up your cabinets. You might want to do a second drawing at full scale also. This pointed out some mistakes I had. You can use a computer program but I found it easier to get some drafting supplies and draw it on paper.
Think about the hardware you will need - drawer slides, knobs, handles, hinges, lazy susans, mixer lifts, etc. The hardware can up quickly. Once you know what you need, start looking for sales.
Decide if you want to make your own doors or buy them already made. Several businesses will sell custom doors and drawers. This can save you from buying a router table and the expensive router bits for door making.
If you do face frame cabinets, you will really need a cheap planer and possibly a jointer. There are several good small planers in the $350-500 range.
I see no need in buying a Domino. Go with pockets screws instead. Pocket screws are easier and much cheaper with just as much strength.
You will need at least:
MFT and clamps. Get 4 of the quick clamps and 4 of the clamping elements. The table and clamps will be used for glueing cabinet parts together.
TS-55 and at least 2 fine tooth saw blades.
Possibly a good jigsaw. I like the Festool but many members feel the Bosch is better.
A couple of guide rails. Many discussions already on this but keep in mind that you will rough cut the pieces out of a full sheet of plywood, then fine cut the individual pieces on the MFT to fit.
OF-1400 router
LR-32 Hole drilling Set if you want adjustable shelving.
HVLP spray system.
There will be many many other things like a good ruler, a good caliper, router bits, jigs and jig parts.
I've ended up with about $5,000 wrapped up in tools. I got my upper cabinets completed and then decided I needed a shop. Now the shop is complete and I'm ready to get back to work on the lower cabinets. Many of my tools were impulse buys and I later discovered there was no need in them.
After doing some reading, you will know where you are better. You can come back and ask some more questions.
I would start out with 2 good books on cabinets. "Building Traditional Kitchen Cabinets" by Jim Tolpin, and "Building Kitchen Cabinets" by Udo Schmidt are highly recommended reading. Lots of good advice and ideas on the tools you will need. Then pick up "Understanding Wood Finishing" by Bob Flexner.
Keep in mind you need good, quality hardwood and hardwood plywood. These are not cheap like you see in DIY stores. You also need to understand the terminology associated with buying hardwood so you don't get ripped off. The hardwood lumber can be bought through the internet but the plywood you need to find locally. If you are in a small town, you might have to hit a big city to find what you need. I've been traveling 250 miles to get my plywood.
Next you need to draw up your cabinets. You might want to do a second drawing at full scale also. This pointed out some mistakes I had. You can use a computer program but I found it easier to get some drafting supplies and draw it on paper.
Think about the hardware you will need - drawer slides, knobs, handles, hinges, lazy susans, mixer lifts, etc. The hardware can up quickly. Once you know what you need, start looking for sales.
Decide if you want to make your own doors or buy them already made. Several businesses will sell custom doors and drawers. This can save you from buying a router table and the expensive router bits for door making.
If you do face frame cabinets, you will really need a cheap planer and possibly a jointer. There are several good small planers in the $350-500 range.
I see no need in buying a Domino. Go with pockets screws instead. Pocket screws are easier and much cheaper with just as much strength.
You will need at least:
MFT and clamps. Get 4 of the quick clamps and 4 of the clamping elements. The table and clamps will be used for glueing cabinet parts together.
TS-55 and at least 2 fine tooth saw blades.
Possibly a good jigsaw. I like the Festool but many members feel the Bosch is better.
A couple of guide rails. Many discussions already on this but keep in mind that you will rough cut the pieces out of a full sheet of plywood, then fine cut the individual pieces on the MFT to fit.
OF-1400 router
LR-32 Hole drilling Set if you want adjustable shelving.
HVLP spray system.
There will be many many other things like a good ruler, a good caliper, router bits, jigs and jig parts.
I've ended up with about $5,000 wrapped up in tools. I got my upper cabinets completed and then decided I needed a shop. Now the shop is complete and I'm ready to get back to work on the lower cabinets. Many of my tools were impulse buys and I later discovered there was no need in them.
After doing some reading, you will know where you are better. You can come back and ask some more questions.
I life in San Francisco, so I have access to pretty much everything - it's just a bit more spendy than most places.
So from what I've read, it seems as if the following are in the "need" category:
a saw (TS-55)
a router (OF-1400 or OF-2200 when it's available?)
a bunch of clamps
a work table (MFT or something similar)
a drill (have a drill)
And the following are in the "want" category:
a joiner (Domino)
LR32 for adjustable shelves
a jigsaw
I guess my other question right now would be: what is the value of having a routing table? Isn't it easier to just run a router around the piece, and see what's happening as you do it?
So from what I've read, it seems as if the following are in the "need" category:
a saw (TS-55)
a router (OF-1400 or OF-2200 when it's available?)
a bunch of clamps
a work table (MFT or something similar)
a drill (have a drill)
And the following are in the "want" category:
a joiner (Domino)
LR32 for adjustable shelves
a jigsaw
I guess my other question right now would be: what is the value of having a routing table? Isn't it easier to just run a router around the piece, and see what's happening as you do it?
- Joined
- Sep 22, 2007
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Most of the routing will be done hand held. The table is a must for large bits, like in making doors. The table is very handy with smaller pieces like moulding (doesn't really apply here) where you can't balance the router on top of the piece.
I have both and I would say the table gets used about 10 percent of the time, hand held gets 90 percent.
I have both and I would say the table gets used about 10 percent of the time, hand held gets 90 percent.
Qwas said:
I'm completely flip flopped with this. I rarely hand hold the router, probably less than 5%. I have a nice router table with a vacuum and use it a lot. Doors, drawer fronts, stile and rail, any trim work, rabets that don't get done on the TS and smaller dados all get done on the table.
- Joined
- Sep 22, 2007
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Thanks Steve. I think it proves it tends to be a personal preference thing. Some like the table better and others like the handheld path.
If you want to keep the costs down, maybe no router table. If you have the money, try the router table. One thing for sure, the OF-1400 is not a good router for mounting in a table. You will have to pick up another router for the table.
If you want to keep the costs down, maybe no router table. If you have the money, try the router table. One thing for sure, the OF-1400 is not a good router for mounting in a table. You will have to pick up another router for the table.
I am inclined to agree with Qwas, router table or hand held is personal preference, me 75% of the time its on the table. For repetitive jobs jobs like dadoing for the back panel running the piece against a fence on the table is somewhat Quicker than using the guide rail, but then they could be done on a TS as well. The best advise I can give is try doing a job different ways then use the way you are most comfortable with.
Colin
Colin
Hi,
I had recommended the router table because I was thinking of the need for running parts for door construction.
As for the need list- the Domino is not needed , but some type of joining tool is. Domino, Kreg, or biscuit joiner.
For a book on finishing I will second the Bob Flexner book.
Seth
I had recommended the router table because I was thinking of the need for running parts for door construction.
As for the need list- the Domino is not needed , but some type of joining tool is. Domino, Kreg, or biscuit joiner.
For a book on finishing I will second the Bob Flexner book.
Seth
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