Newbie looking to take up woodworking, want to invest in the Festool system...

[HDClown]

Thanks for the feedback so far,  I really appreciate it.

- Mafell vs. Festool - We can get Mafell in the USA through a single exclusive dealer, but their prices are well above Festool.  The MT55cc is $400 more than TS55, P1cc is $180 more than Carvex+Acessory Kit.  An Erika is over $3000.  The Duo Doweller is pretty much same price as a DF700, so that's one isn't bad I suppose.  I read of someone getting way better pricing by ordering overseas (even with shipping), but then I'd be concerned with warranty. 

- Table saw - I've ready about every thread on FOG I could find about table vs. track and that led me to the conclusion that I will personally want both.  The table saw would be a job site saw (probably DeWALT DWE7480) so it can work within the small space.  I figured I'd start with just one or the other.  This does bring up a question.  Is there any issues with a TS55 ripping down 2x stock into narrower dimensions?  What about for cross cutting?

 

[Sparktrician]

- Table saw - I've ready about every thread on FOG I could find about table vs. track and that led me to the conclusion that I will personally want both.  The table saw would be a job site saw (probably DeWALT DWE7480) so it can work within the small space.  I figured I'd start with just one or the other.  This does bring up a question.  Is there any issues with a TS55 ripping down 2x stock into narrower dimensions?  What about for cross cutting?

 

If you're thinking of getting a small table saw, consider waiting until the Bosch REAXX is available sometime in September.  As for ripping 2X material. just remember that you'll need to support the guide rail on the side opposite the blade.  Cross-cutting is a non-problem. 

 

[Sparktrician]

I disagree completely with everything just stated about the table saw. All I do is custom furniture, moldings, and etc. the track saw makes my life so much easier. I make one cut it is 100% square already. There is no need to joint, plane, or do any more work to the wood. I just simply cut my pieces and glue. Read the documents published by jerry works and listen to what he says. Moving your tool through your material is far more accurate than moving your material through your tool.

Here is the link. Read everything he had on the mft, sanders, and mft top.
http://thedovetailjoint.squarespace.com/how-to/

 

There's only one circumstance in which I would disagree with your disagreement; that being if the OP had a sliding table saw.  The accuracy and smoothness of cut here will rival that of the track saw, but at a tremendous relative cost differential.  For repeat cuts in a production environment comparing the sliding table saw to the track saw with parallel guides, the sliding table saw will win hands down for consistent speed of production, accuracy and cleanness of cut. 

I will definitely agree, but not everyone has enough need, space, or money for a sliding table saw. In my line of work I do not need to do major amounts of repetitive cuts. Unless I am doing a custom cabinet build. For example, I am building a custom mission style bed frame. It had 15 set in panels inside a set of mitered rails and stiles. there really isn't a lot of repeated cuts for me to make. I think there is a total of 6. So for me to justify buying a Hammer sliding saw at $5000 is not worth it when I am just as fast at using my track saw and my 4' x 8' mft with another 4' x 5' mft extension. How I would love to buy one though. Bottom line a Hammer table saw is not justifiable for a lot of people who woodwork for a living it is definitely not justifiable for a DIY just getting started.

And that is exactly why I don't have an Altendorf F45.  (I still have a severe lust for one, but not the profit-justifiable need.) 

 

[clark_fork]

Absent so far that I can see is the safety issue in terms table vs. track. If I were starting out, I would not likely take on a table saw.  I think today, the decision process also has to include considerations of decibel level, dust creation as well as safety from flying debris and kickbacks. Before SawStop, I never thought of my fingers as hot dogs but there you go. That is the reality. To use a table saw, you need the armaments of splitters, hold downs, feather boards, push sticks and all kinds of protection.  If I had to advise a son or daughter, I would want them to use the safest tools. The table saw is dangerous at whatever speed.

 

[teocaf]

My suggestion to the newbie would be this:  be very systematic and get your tools gradually instead of a bunch at once.
1.  pick your first project
2.  draft a sketch in 3 views and isometric and a cut list.
3.  think about the process of building that project:  milling lumber, choice of joinery, etc.  get your first couple of tools for that.
4.  keep progressing with your project and get the next tool needed.
5.  make sure you finish your project all the way through.
That will give you a good idea of how you like to work and the time in the shop will let you know a great deal about your next steps.  Some may say that's a slow approach to things but I believe that as counterintuitive as it seems, it's actually a faster approach in the long run.  Getting one or two tools at a time and using them frequently and figuring out how you can make them do more and more before you get other stuff will help you from getting overwhelmed or falling into the paralysis by analysis thing or the addiction to buying stuff.  You can make any brand work for you, but if you've already decided to go Festool, that's a very good way to go forward and you can put the decision behind you and focus on the next step.  Like, "ok, what do I want to build first".  "Ok, I've sketched  the design and made the cut list" .  "i'm going to get a ts55 and a rail and an mft".  "i wonder how long i can stay with this setup before I really need to get a table saw." etc.  In the end (as well as in the middle and in the beginning),  woodworking is about just that:  working the wood.  buying everything and anything you might need all at first will turn out to be a big waste of time and money, no matter how you rationalize it.  if you love the hobby and make lots of stuff, you will end up with a great tool collection. 

I agree with the suggestion a few entries back about the great reference that Jerry Work provides at his Dovetail Joint site.  His articles have been very helpful when I started with Festools and made me realize how I could use the tools in all sorts of ways. 

I wonder what happened to him--does anyone on here keep in touch with him?

 

[elfick]

Once you get onto the Festool Rail you are pretty much hooked in towards using all Festool.
While with the Bosch rail then you have choices on Bosch and Mafell, and maybe others.

[member=40772]Holmz[/member] The MT55cc will also run on Festool rails
http://www.timberwolftools.com/tools/mafell/MAF-MT55cc.html

[member=34636]HDClown[/member] I second the others that you may want to give more consideration to MFT. It seems like it would fit your use case perfectly... Pull out the car, unfold the table, and get to work. Need to work in the driveway, backyard, upstairs, friend's or family's house? No problem...
Admittedly, I don't have one yet as I had been planning on building my own. Now I find myself working on projects that would have been MUCH easier with an MFT but there isn't room in the budget for it now so I struggle along wishing I had bought one sooner.

 

[Tayler_mann]

Thanks for the feedback so far,  I really appreciate it.

- Mafell vs. Festool - We can get Mafell in the USA through a single exclusive dealer, but their prices are well above Festool.  The MT55cc is $400 more than TS55, P1cc is $180 more than Carvex+Acessory Kit.  An Erika is over $3000.  The Duo Doweller is pretty much same price as a DF700, so that's one isn't bad I suppose.  I read of someone getting way better pricing by ordering overseas (even with shipping), but then I'd be concerned with warranty. 

- Table saw - I've ready about every thread on FOG I could find about table vs. track and that led me to the conclusion that I will personally want both.  The table saw would be a job site saw (probably DeWALT DWE7480) so it can work within the small space.  I figured I'd start with just one or the other.  This does bring up a question.  Is there any issues with a TS55 ripping down 2x stock into narrower dimensions?  What about for cross cutting?

You will be sorely disappointed with the Dewalt. If you want to get a job site saw that will sit in the corner go for the Bosch, or something with more quality the smaller Jet cabinet saw. I use my Mft and track saw for any type of cross cutting unles it is thicker than 2" or custom moldings. Than I use my 12" makita dual slide miter. I wish I bought the kapex though.

 

[HDClown]

[You will be sorely disappointed with the Dewalt. If you want to get a job site saw that will sit in the corner go for the Bosch, or something with more quality the smaller Jet cabinet saw. I use my Mft and track saw for any type of cross cutting unles it is thicker than 2" or custom moldings. Than I use my 12" makita dual slide miter. I wish I bought the kapex though.

You're probably the first person I've heard talk poorly about Dewalt's job site saws.  Every review and comparison I've read rates them extremely favorably, especially their rack & pinion fence.  The Bosch is always the other top rated saw, but most everything I've read puts the Bosch and the Dewalt decision as "personal preference".

 

[Sparktrician]

[You will be sorely disappointed with the Dewalt. If you want to get a job site saw that will sit in the corner go for the Bosch, or something with more quality the smaller Jet cabinet saw. I use my Mft and track saw for any type of cross cutting unles it is thicker than 2" or custom moldings. Than I use my 12" makita dual slide miter. I wish I bought the kapex though.

You're probably the first person I've heard talk poorly about Dewalt's job site saws.  Every review and comparison I've read rates them extremely favorably, especially their rack & pinion fence.  The Bosch is always the other top rated saw, but most everything I've read puts the Bosch and the Dewalt decision as "personal preference".

Be aware that the Bosch REAXX is a cut above the current TS4001 in that it has its own flesh-sensing technology implementation, in the same vein as (but different from) the SawStop saws.  The REAXX is a game-changer in my book, when it comes to portable table saws. 

 

[JediKnight]

[member=2205]teocaf[/member] makes some great points:  pick your first project (or three), plan your materials and cultist, and buy the tools you need to make it happen.  When I look at the projects I've completed and what it would have cost to hire someone else to come in and do them, every Festool I've bought has more than paid for itself, despite the fact I'm not a professional.

You mention, however, that you're looking to get into finish work (which is how I started), so I'd reconsider the Kapex, as it's the tool I use most for finish work.  For sheet goods you can't beat the TS55 (or the 75 if you plan on cutting thicker stock), and for furniture making the Domino system lets you pull off some incredibly joinery without visible fasteners.  And the dust collector is a must.

Lastly, in addition to various measuring and marking tools, don't forget plenty of clamps and a Kreg jig.

Good luck on your adventure.

-Thomas

 

[Holmz]

[member=2205]teocaf[/member]

 

[charley1968]

Hi.
I do understand your desire for good tools and i do agree Festool is quality.
But there are other manufacturers that have good tools.
The Festool system revolves around tha MFT, rails, tracksaw and routers plus vac.
Those i'd buy from Festool. And a Domino/ sander combo. As for jigsaws, drills,planers, etc. you might wanna go a 'cheaper' way.

 

[Df1k1]

"With that being said, the basic of the system is a MFT, CT and. TS55 /75
Once you get them, then you can build on whatever your specific need is".

Couldn't agree more. It's very easy to get hooked on Festool and want to get every tool they have. Think about what you want to build and then start building your tools around it. For example, I would love a Domino but right now no project I'm working on really calls for it so I am waiting.  And this is just my personal opinion. I agree with Dewalt miter saw. Would I love a Kapex? Yes but for me I just can't justify the cost. But that's only my opinion. You'll get tons of people, especially professionals which I'm not, say it's worth every penny

 

[Holmz]

"With that being said, the basic of the system is a MFT, CT and. TS55 /75
Once you get them, then you can build on whatever your specific need is".

Couldn't agree more. It's very easy to get hooked on Festool and want to get every tool they have. Think about what you want to build and then start building your tools around it. For example, I would love a Domino but right now no project I'm working on really calls for it so I am waiting.  And this is just my personal opinion. I agree with Dewalt miter saw. Would I love a Kapex? Yes but for me I just can't justify the cost. But that's only my opinion. You'll get tons of people, especially professionals which I'm not, say it's worth every penny

I have an MFT and CT, but it is possible to put the Bosch Rail on the MF [wink]
So that opens up some options... which also opens up some chin-scratching.

 

[teocaf]

holmz dude, you keep harping on that bosch rail.  i'm glad it's working for you and all that.  all kinds of things can be made to work with all kinds of other tools.  if you gain anything with one setup chances are you lose something else, so you can take up head scratching and pondering as a full time hobby.

here's how this relates to the OP's question directly:  you're in oz, he's here in usa.  bosch rails are not as common here and neither is mafell.  so trying to get bits and pieces from across all manufacturers and fiddling endlessly to get them all to work would be counterproductive.  it would actually be vastly better starting out to get into ONE system that has been designed as such and get RIGHT TO WORK using it.  word of the day is:  synergy--sum greater than the parts.  major benefit as well from the support in forums and videos of people who have gone before and used the festool setups as an integrated SYSTEM.

personally, as i use the system, i run across limitations, naturally.  i figure out ways to work around them, check what others have done, supplement the system with bits from specialty mfgs, etc.  But i don't see it as a detriment to be "stuck" in one system.  there are many, many more benefits than not.  i own a trion and a carvex and use them both regularly with the system components.  my next jigsaw will indeed be a mafell with the long thick blade.  it will not replace the festools but rather augment it for its own specialized uses.  but i would not recommend  to a newbie to get a rail here, a tool there, this other thing somewhere else for the reasons i mentioned already.

 

[Tayler_mann]

holmz dude, you keep harping on that bosch rail.  i'm glad it's working for you and all that.  all kinds of things can be made to work with all kinds of other tools.  if you gain anything with one setup chances are you lose something else, so you can take up head scratching and pondering as a full time hobby.

here's how this relates to the OP's question directly:  you're in oz, he's here in usa.  bosch rails are not as common here and neither is mafell.  so trying to get bits and pieces from across all manufacturers and fiddling endlessly to get them all to work would be counterproductive.  it would actually be vastly better starting out to get into ONE system that has been designed as such and get RIGHT TO WORK using it.  word of the day is:  synergy--sum greater than the parts.  major benefit as well from the support in forums and videos of people who have gone before and used the festool setups as an integrated SYSTEM.

personally, as i use the system, i run across limitations, naturally.  i figure out ways to work around them, check what others have done, supplement the system with bits from specialty mfgs, etc.  But i don't see it as a detriment to be "stuck" in one system.  there are many, many more benefits than not.  i own a trion and a carvex and use them both regularly with the system components.  my next jigsaw will indeed be a mafell with the long thick blade.  it will not replace the festools but rather augment it for its own specialized uses.  but i would not recommend  to a newbie to get a rail here, a tool there, this other thing somewhere else for the reasons i mentioned already.

Completely agree with that said. Invest in one system and don't waste time and money between 3 of them.

I will explain it as easily as this. Woodworking is an art and it takes a certain person to be good at it. If you are that certain person you can make any tools work for you, however, there is certain tools that make things faster, easier, and smarter (see what I did there haha). With that being said their are two ways of going when buying tools and equipment. The first and cheaper way to go is buy small hand tools such as festool. You can buy Bosch, Dewalt, makita or whatever you want as well they just don't have the quality.

The second way to go is to buy stationary machinery like Hammer, Powermatic Artisan. Staring his way you will spend over $20,000 and need a very large shop with a lot of electricity. People never realize the cost of the electricity either.

So if you are going to go the route of hand tools which is a definite step down from the stationary machinery. Why not go with the best and a proven system that does indeed make life easier and have less heard scratching periods. Or just as easily you can go with cheaper tools which is what I did first as well. I just regret it a little bit when I see my Bosch table saw sit in the corner and my 12" makita miter collecting ts dust. Also it might be my 2 Bosch jigsaw that hasn't left the shelf for months. I could have bought a lot more of the festool system of I hadn't invested all that money into the other system I never use anymore.

 

[Holmz]

[member=2205]teocaf[/member] - Your post #24 yesterday was 'spot on'.

I could have a different set of conclusion with 110v and pricing structures, but it may add some completeness for those stumbling upon his later who is a FO in the different country, so maybe my rambling have a place.

I really liked that Post #24. There is a lot of good stuff there for the OP.

 

[Kev]

I don't completely agree that the big machines will always be a more expensive path. There's quite a few variables involved.

If you happen to have a lot of space available, there's some bargains out there!

 

[sancho57]

Space is the operable word. Meaning if you have space you can get all sorts of stationary tools at a pretty good discount. Lots of folks down sizing, up grading etc.

 

[HDClown]

Thanks once again for your feedback.  Here's what I'm thinking for Festool purchases:

• CT36
• TS 55 REQ
• MFT/3 + Cross Members
• Selection of Festool Clamps (clamping elements 2-pack and 4-6 screws and/or quick clamps)
• D150 Granat abrasive assortment (from Tool Home)

I'd like to be able to get the 10% off bundle discounts on both the CT and MFT, but I need another tool purchase to do that.  I'd have to spend more then I'd save in this case, but why leave free money on the table?  So I'm still thinking about a DTS400/RTS400, but I'm also pondering an OF1010 or OF1400 instead (since I have the RO 150 which should handle all my sanding needs for now).  I know I can get immediate use out of a router with some of the things I want to built, doing different joinery methods and edge banding.  Any opinions here?

Outside of the Festool brand, purchases would include: bench/rail dogs, clamps (already have decent Bessey collection but could use some longer ones, as well as some toggle/bench clamps), squares/rules, kreg pocket hole jig, and a miter saw.  As far ase th miter saw goes, I was intending to buy one anyway for another project I had pushed off, installing 600+ sq ft of ceiling on my porch (1x6 Pine T&G). I'll proabably go with the Dewalt DW715, but need to do more research.

Since I'll be buying some new measuring devices, for those of you reading along in the USA, did you stick with imperial or go all metric?