mastercabman
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Nick,you are right,maybe i need ti give them a try.I have the 1080 and i know that it had some flaws in the design.
Newest Qwas Invention - MFT enhancement using the holes of course!
- Thread starter nickao
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I haven't been around Festools as long as many of you so I'm not in a very solid position to cite "the history of holes" but when I bought my first MFT/3 I didn't see any offering from Festool for use of the holes for anything but clamping. As far as I'm aware that is still true? Steve took advantage of the precise positions of the holes to offer us a very simple & clever solution (Qwas dogs) for aligning the work piece on the table for cutting -- it's much quicker and simpler than what Festool offers as far as I'm aware.
As useful as Qwas dogs are the primary purpose up to now has been for alignment parallel and perpendicular to the axis of the hole rows. Steve's latest idea utilizes the concept of the machinist's "sine bar" which is older than anyone reading this post. Even though the first read sounds complex and slow the idea once refined could allow absolutely precise angle (degrees/minutes/seconds) cutting at any angle on the work piece. The Festool protractor allows for "close enough" angles for many applications but it certainly shouldn't be considered a precise instrument.
As the saying goes there's really nothing new under the sun, just clever variations of old ideas.
As useful as Qwas dogs are the primary purpose up to now has been for alignment parallel and perpendicular to the axis of the hole rows. Steve's latest idea utilizes the concept of the machinist's "sine bar" which is older than anyone reading this post. Even though the first read sounds complex and slow the idea once refined could allow absolutely precise angle (degrees/minutes/seconds) cutting at any angle on the work piece. The Festool protractor allows for "close enough" angles for many applications but it certainly shouldn't be considered a precise instrument.
As the saying goes there's really nothing new under the sun, just clever variations of old ideas.
Alaska Ranger
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I am very sorry for any discomfort the above might have caused, particularly on Steve's part. I sincerely and very humbly apologize for any slight this may have engendered. Of all people, I should be sensitive to the perspicacity of someone who first recognizes - and acts upon - the "Gee! THAT's something I can improve upon!", which is how I think Steve came to invent the Qwas Dogs.Der Flickschuster said:
There is nothing new in bench dogs. And it wasnt Black & Decker who invented them either. Actually my more than hundred year old workbench has lots of holes - As my more than ten year old Workmate has 
I have a MFT3 too but has no experience with the fence flaws of its predecessor the 1080.
To my eye the beauty of the Qwas products are the simplicity. Very well illustrated on Brice's Computer Desk project page especially on this image:
[attachimg=#]
"With the holes in the MFT top all being perfectly cut on a CNC machine it's like having a built-in square on your MFT table. I placed the Qwas dogs down to act as a fence and attached the rail dogs in the clamp groove on the bottom of my guide rail, then drop the dogs in the holes. This made a perfectly square cut without any hassle. This was a big time saver in my project since I needed all of the table space of my MFT but still had to make crosscuts. Setting up the fence/guide rail and squaring then up several times during this project would been very time consuming. With the Qwas products it only took seconds... "
Using the Qwas dogs combined with the Rail dogs makes it possible to remove both the original fence and the rail attachments. You get an all clean table, you easily fits the dogs to the size of your piece of wood and you dont have to adjust the rail to match the thickness of your workpiece. Just plop it in and you are ready to go. And absolutely no need to check for squareness as when you move the orig mft3 fence
I have a MFT3 too but has no experience with the fence flaws of its predecessor the 1080.To my eye the beauty of the Qwas products are the simplicity. Very well illustrated on Brice's Computer Desk project page especially on this image:
[attachimg=#]
"With the holes in the MFT top all being perfectly cut on a CNC machine it's like having a built-in square on your MFT table. I placed the Qwas dogs down to act as a fence and attached the rail dogs in the clamp groove on the bottom of my guide rail, then drop the dogs in the holes. This made a perfectly square cut without any hassle. This was a big time saver in my project since I needed all of the table space of my MFT but still had to make crosscuts. Setting up the fence/guide rail and squaring then up several times during this project would been very time consuming. With the Qwas products it only took seconds... "
Using the Qwas dogs combined with the Rail dogs makes it possible to remove both the original fence and the rail attachments. You get an all clean table, you easily fits the dogs to the size of your piece of wood and you dont have to adjust the rail to match the thickness of your workpiece. Just plop it in and you are ready to go. And absolutely no need to check for squareness as when you move the orig mft3 fence
jonny round boy
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Well, I'm afraid I opened a rather large can of worms here yesterday, and for that I apologise.
Qwas/Steve,
I didn't intend any offence with my post, I truly didn't - Having read back what I wrote, and more importantly the way it was written, I can see how it could be misconstrued.
I realise and appreciate that you have done a lot of work on the use of bench dogs, and that you not only shared this with the forum, but also saw a commercial opportunity in developing them further. I didn't intend to take anything away from you in that respect.
I accept that many of the items you have developed, such as this latest angle guide, and the dogs that fit to the guide rail, are new and entirely developed by you. All I was saying is that the use of bench dogs in general with the MFT is not an entirely new concept. Whilst you have developed the concept further you did not, in my eyes, invent the idea. That is what I was trying to say.
As for the original "MFT and guide rail alignment" thread, I have read it; I even posted in it myself on several occasions.
Over the last 24 hours I have thought about editing or even deleting my original post, however I decided that this would compromise the thread as a whole, as the replies to it would no longer make sense. Instead, I hope this post will clear up any issues with what I posted originally.
Again Steve, I hope you will accept this post as my apology. The old adage "think twice, post once" is very apt here! I should have thought more about what I typed, how I worded it, and how it could be misunderstood. Indeed, I believe that I may even have misunderstood what you yourself wrote, and thought you were claiming credit for more than you actually were.
I respectfully hope this will draw the issue to a close.
Qwas/Steve,
I didn't intend any offence with my post, I truly didn't - Having read back what I wrote, and more importantly the way it was written, I can see how it could be misconstrued.
I realise and appreciate that you have done a lot of work on the use of bench dogs, and that you not only shared this with the forum, but also saw a commercial opportunity in developing them further. I didn't intend to take anything away from you in that respect.
I accept that many of the items you have developed, such as this latest angle guide, and the dogs that fit to the guide rail, are new and entirely developed by you. All I was saying is that the use of bench dogs in general with the MFT is not an entirely new concept. Whilst you have developed the concept further you did not, in my eyes, invent the idea. That is what I was trying to say.
As for the original "MFT and guide rail alignment" thread, I have read it; I even posted in it myself on several occasions.
Over the last 24 hours I have thought about editing or even deleting my original post, however I decided that this would compromise the thread as a whole, as the replies to it would no longer make sense. Instead, I hope this post will clear up any issues with what I posted originally.
Again Steve, I hope you will accept this post as my apology. The old adage "think twice, post once" is very apt here! I should have thought more about what I typed, how I worded it, and how it could be misunderstood. Indeed, I believe that I may even have misunderstood what you yourself wrote, and thought you were claiming credit for more than you actually were.
I respectfully hope this will draw the issue to a close.
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Apologies accepted.
I've never tried to claim I'm the first to think of bench dogs and holes. I'm saying I was the first to notice with the MFT and it's grid layout that dogs could be used for accurate cutting. If you notice I promote my dogs as precision dogs. This is why my dogs are round instead of a flat spot on the head. Flats are great for conventional "work" dogs and rounds are better for accuracy.
I'm not sure what is going on with Festool Junkie but I will try looking into it this week. I have some other pending projects this week so I may be slow to respond to e-mails but I will get to answering them.
In the mean time, if you want some odd bench dogs or fences for the MFT, check out my auctions on eBay. eBay Sales Qwas
I've never tried to claim I'm the first to think of bench dogs and holes. I'm saying I was the first to notice with the MFT and it's grid layout that dogs could be used for accurate cutting. If you notice I promote my dogs as precision dogs. This is why my dogs are round instead of a flat spot on the head. Flats are great for conventional "work" dogs and rounds are better for accuracy.
I'm not sure what is going on with Festool Junkie but I will try looking into it this week. I have some other pending projects this week so I may be slow to respond to e-mails but I will get to answering them.
In the mean time, if you want some odd bench dogs or fences for the MFT, check out my auctions on eBay. eBay Sales Qwas
chrisrosenb
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Any plans to start selling new stuff?
Wonderwino
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If I recall correctly, Festool put the holes in the tables to accomodate their version of "F" clamps. Steve rightly deserves credit for observing the accuracy of their alignment and taking advantage of it for other uses. [big grin]
Wood_Junkie
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I think that what Qwas put forth was not that he invented the use of bench dogs, in their primitive capacity (e.g. stops and simple clamping), but rather a method and means of utilizing the grid to do precision, angular based work. He's a smart fellow, and based on his various posts, quite a tinkerer. Festool was quite clever making a precision grid, but its still just a bunch of holes. A mechanism for "harnessing" that arrangement and explaining its use in several ways, really is profound. The alignment process, setting up 0, 90 and 45-degree angles in seconds, and the combination of bench dogs and rail dogs to create a 45 or 90-degree cross-cut in seconds is pretty awesome.
Back onto this thread's main topic. I'm thrilled about an easy to use and accurate angle jig for the MFT, and contacted Steve with some ideas towards this device.
As an aside for frustrated 1080 owners, using the Qwas dogs and a spacer (cut from 1/2" scrap ply) to set the guide rail and MFT fence makes it pretty speedy and easy.
I setup the guide rail first, as it lays over/above the MFT fence. I use a large triangle (Woodpecker's 12" unit) which is thick and offers a robust edge. Using two or three Qwas dogs I simply setup a reference "fence line", lower the rail onto the MFT table, and then use the triangle to set the rail perpendicular. Set the guide rail holder (with the tooth), and there you go. Couldn't be simpler.
Not a sales pitch, but the WP triangle really made this a lot easier. With a standard carpenter square I was spending a lot of time trying to get this set up, but it wouldn't sit just right with the rounded corners of the guide rails. Framing squares have the protruding edge, which doesn't work out so well either. The WP triangle lays flat, and is about 3/16" thick, and perfectly square.
For the MFT fence, with Qwas dogs in place in several holes near the fence, I just adjust the fence until my spacer can juuuust squeezes in. At that point the fence and dogs are parallel, and by extension the fence and rail are perpendicular. And there ya go. The spacer took me about 5 cuts on the tablesaw (taking off hairline cuts) to get a snug fit.
Now, installing and ensuring the squareness of the guide rail takes about 1 minute (I leave the guide stops in place, but always double check the rail's squarness).
Installing and squaring my MFT1080 fence also takes about 1 minute. Because of this, I no longer feel compelled to leave the fence in place, dreading the setup and alignment chore.
Back onto this thread's main topic. I'm thrilled about an easy to use and accurate angle jig for the MFT, and contacted Steve with some ideas towards this device.
As an aside for frustrated 1080 owners, using the Qwas dogs and a spacer (cut from 1/2" scrap ply) to set the guide rail and MFT fence makes it pretty speedy and easy.
I setup the guide rail first, as it lays over/above the MFT fence. I use a large triangle (Woodpecker's 12" unit) which is thick and offers a robust edge. Using two or three Qwas dogs I simply setup a reference "fence line", lower the rail onto the MFT table, and then use the triangle to set the rail perpendicular. Set the guide rail holder (with the tooth), and there you go. Couldn't be simpler.
Not a sales pitch, but the WP triangle really made this a lot easier. With a standard carpenter square I was spending a lot of time trying to get this set up, but it wouldn't sit just right with the rounded corners of the guide rails. Framing squares have the protruding edge, which doesn't work out so well either. The WP triangle lays flat, and is about 3/16" thick, and perfectly square.
For the MFT fence, with Qwas dogs in place in several holes near the fence, I just adjust the fence until my spacer can juuuust squeezes in. At that point the fence and dogs are parallel, and by extension the fence and rail are perpendicular. And there ya go. The spacer took me about 5 cuts on the tablesaw (taking off hairline cuts) to get a snug fit.
Now, installing and ensuring the squareness of the guide rail takes about 1 minute (I leave the guide stops in place, but always double check the rail's squarness).
Installing and squaring my MFT1080 fence also takes about 1 minute. Because of this, I no longer feel compelled to leave the fence in place, dreading the setup and alignment chore.
Wood_Junkie
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Qwas said:
Ha, I saw a bunch of what I assume were product prototypes and what-not on eBay yesterday. Some interesting items.
Frank Pellow
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Very ingenious and well explained Steve! [thumbs up]
I own two of the older MFTs and have made good use of my set of 4 QWAS dogs.
For the record, I too consider that you were the one who first documented the use of the holes in the MFT to make the setup of the MFT much easier and more accurate.
I own two of the older MFTs and have made good use of my set of 4 QWAS dogs.
For the record, I too consider that you were the one who first documented the use of the holes in the MFT to make the setup of the MFT much easier and more accurate.
Captainwrinkles
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I have a set of Qwas dogs, they come in very handy. However, I find it hard to believe that festool placed the 20mm holes in a
perfectly alligned 96mm grid pattern by accident. I myself would have probably made them 100mm on centre. In fact i was going to make
myself a replacement MFT top that way on the CNC at work until i found the festool MFT is all spaced on 96mm centres. Thats way it works into the 32mm system.
Im not taking it away from the Qwas guy for pointing out that you can cut very accurate angle cuts using the holes. But i dont give him any credit for them being that way.
perfectly alligned 96mm grid pattern by accident. I myself would have probably made them 100mm on centre. In fact i was going to make
myself a replacement MFT top that way on the CNC at work until i found the festool MFT is all spaced on 96mm centres. Thats way it works into the 32mm system.
Im not taking it away from the Qwas guy for pointing out that you can cut very accurate angle cuts using the holes. But i dont give him any credit for them being that way.
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Brice Burrell said:
We sell them up here in Canada and could probably ship South is Timmy cannot supply them. We do ship them Internationally to other locations throughout the world. Just don't ask me to ship Festool's outside of Canada cause I can't do it.
Dan Clermont
So, for those who have gone from the 1080 to the MFT/3 do you still use your dogs? Brice?
I have the 1080 and the fence is not used as much for reason stated above, and because I use it to make a living my tools have to be justified, and the 1080 works, and I need other tools and to replace worn out tools as with many 2009 was not nice, this year and next are getting things ($$) back on trac. [big grin]
I have the 1080 and the fence is not used as much for reason stated above, and because I use it to make a living my tools have to be justified, and the 1080 works, and I need other tools and to replace worn out tools as with many 2009 was not nice, this year and next are getting things ($$) back on trac. [big grin]
Brice Burrell
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Texastutt said:
I've had my MFT/3 for a few months now (and I'm almost embarrassed to admit this) but I haven't used it yet. I can still foresee myself using the Qwas dogs a fair amount since they are so easy to use.
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