No more Festool on Ebay.com or live.com

[Per Swenson]

PM,

I may be a Professional, so what, that  doesn't make me 250 dollars stoopid.

Think about it, we are not talkin 5 bucks.  Kapex for under 1100 bucks?

I love Bob and consider him a friend...but come on.  It catchs on that one guy on flea bay

though no fault or intention of his own is hooked up to a 250.00 savings,

you me and everybody else, loyalty aside I'm gonna grab it.

And who suffers. In the long run every body.

per

 

[Tim Sproul]

SNIP - Unfortunately, we do not have acceptance of those answers.  Let the debate continue!  - SNIP

I think you should have written 'Fortunately' rather than 'Unfortunately' in that sentence.  One of the nice things about this country is the ability to voice opposition - political, fiscal, metaphysical or other.  The opposition can be reasonable, far-fetched or completely wrong or idiotic.

But back to the topic on hand.  I am not a lawyer but this move by Festool strikes me as coming close to illegal.  I understand the price controls - they want to protect the value of their brand and products.  I do not understand how they can dictate payment methods or sales venues because the venue decides to have a temporary sale.  The next logical move for Festool to do then is to limit other forms of payment ISA's can accept.  Does that credit card offer rewards points or a % rebate?  Sorry, ISA cannot accept that credit card because you are getting a 'discount' on the Festool.  The discount from the credit card is out of the control of the ISA, just as the discount from ebay or live.com is out of the control of the ISA.  Perhaps Festools will be a cash only only commodity in the near future?   :.  Or perhaps this move by Festool signals their desire to enter the financial business realm?  They'll offer a credit card or other purchasing means and that will be the only acceptable payment?  I doubt that could happen as that seems like a vertical monopoly but still...

 

[pmkierst]

I may be a Professional, so what, that  doesn't make me 250 dollars stoopid.
....
I love Bob and consider him a friend...but come on.  It catchs on that one guy on flea bay

I'm not talking about loyalty at all. If you buy your Kapex off eBay, what you going to do when it breaks? That guy gonna loan you another one (and bring it to the site if he is a really good dealer) so you can finish the job? How much money are you going to lose sorting it out?

This isn't about loyalty. A good dealer adds value. If they don't add enough value, they don't deserve the premium.

 

[greg mann]

I may be a Professional, so what, that  doesn't make me 250 dollars stoopid.
....
I love Bob and consider him a friend...but come on.  It catchs on that one guy on flea bay

I'm not talking about loyalty at all. If you buy your Kapex off eBay, what you going to do when it breaks? That guy gonna loan you another one (and bring it to the site if he is a really good dealer) so you can finish the job? How much money are you going to lose sorting it out?

This isn't about loyalty. A good dealer adds value. If they don't add enough value, they don't deserve the premium.

I really think you have this part backwards to the rest of your post, with which I totally agree, BTW . If a dealer doesn't add value, they certainly don't deserve the opportunity to offer a discount.

 

[Per Swenson]

But those were Festool dealers on e-bay.

The vendors weren't giving the discount.

Bill Gates was footin the bill.

On a level playing field then Bill satan's off spring, should offer the opportunity to subsidize every festool purchase.

Then I am happy, and the ISA who needs the one extra kapex sale is happy also.

Lets see, If I am festool and my model now is to sell exclusively through dealers,

and a small percentage of them get a unfair advantage by a third party discounting my product

through a sales incentive, just what am I going to tell the 97% of the rest of the sales force.
I am a layman. so I 'm gonna put it in laymans terms.

My dealers are gonna hang me.

Per

 

[pmkierst]

Why should the playing field be level?

and a small percentage of them get a unfair advantage by a third party discounting my product

through a sales incentive, just what am I going to tell the 97% of the rest of the sales force.
I am a layman. so I 'm gonna put it in laymans terms.

Yes, but you *local* dealer has a huge advantage over the Internet dealer; he adds value (not to mention a great opportunity to make follow-on sales). *He* has the advantage. If he feels all his customers will flee to save a few short term bucks, then he hasn't be servicing his clients very well; they have only been buying from him because "what's the difference, they all charge the same". If he is a good dealer, his value add will keep the clients who need it.

Lots of people keep telling me how important the great service is, yet that everyone will bolt to save a few bucks.

It the service worth the money or not? If not, then why are you paying for it? If it is worth it, then why would you buy on-line?

 

[Per Swenson]

Am I missing the definition of level playing field?

Do you mean to tell me woodcraft, mcfeelys, rockler bob marino, festool junkie, force

utter guys don't have a internet presence?

Anybody with a 100 bucks can have a website.

So which Mom and Pop local dealer here in the USA, remember here in the USA

doesn't have a website and or a brick and mortar and doesnt play by the rules.

The utterguy's he played by the rules except a third party, who's name shall not be spoken...

What am I not getting here?

If its the same price, then the dealers can only compete on knowledge service and speed.

Right?

We have all ready discussed why discounting leads to price wars which lead to poor quality ad infinitum

Maybe I really am missing something.

P.

 

[rnt80]

I mentioned this earlier and I think it needs to be mentioned again.  The cashback program was only good for three individual purchases.  It was not infinite.

 

[Per Swenson]

80,

Right, but your thinking like a customer.

Think like a dealer for a minute, 30 kapex's is 39 thousand clams.

How would you as a dealer like to lose that income?

There are a finite amount of buyers for a 1300 dollar saw.

Per

 

[b_m_hart]

80,

Right, but your thinking like a customer.

Think like a dealer for a minute, 30 kapex's is 39 thousand clams.

How would you as a dealer like to lose that income?

There are a finite amount of buyers for a 1300 dollar saw.

Per

And assume the dealer clears 20%.  I have no idea what the profit margins are, I'm just guessing, based on the relatively high "premium" Festool charges for its tools.  That's $7,800.  Yeah, even in San Francisco or New York, that's covering a small shop, and probably most of your monthly run rate items (like insurance, utilities, etc.) for the month... so nothing to sneeze at when one of the other dealers somehow got picked for the third party discount and you didn't.

If I were a dealer, I'd be HOPPING MAD.  And, yes, from a customer perspective, I've gotten some great customer service where I've purchased most of my Festools.  However, I did go ahead and buy a Domino online from utterguys - cuz it saved me $200.  Sorry, but the table was going to be the next purchase, with the rationalization that the money saved would cover the spiffy new C12 I picked up yesterday.  Now?  It means I don't save the money, so I'm just gonna go with the drill for now, and pick the table up in 6 months or so when my budget clears up some.

Even if it could "only" have been used three times - yeah, that's easy to game that system.  I'll use my name, my better half's name, my brother's name, etc - and get ALL of my tools for 25% off.

 

[Matthew Schenker]

I've noticed your goading of Festool in several threads now. The atmosphere of this forum has become the antithesis of a communication channel lately, and I don't blame Christian or Shane for abstaining from entering any of these discussions.

My posts are not goading, but rather encouraging communication.  Keep in mind that this forum was created by a customer, for customers.  I'm living up to that mission here: I see a need for more clarity, and I'm calling for that clarity from the company.  What you call goading, I call offering the company a chance to tell their side of the issue.  If you look through my posts in this discussion, you will see that everything I have written has been fair and inviting to the company.

As the forum administrator, I am sure you are aware that I have deleted all of my recent postings myself. I did this because lately I have spent some time reading more of this forum than I normally do, and I do not like where it is heading, and I don?t want to be a part of it.

Actually, I did not notice that.  If you do not want to be part of a discussion, you don't have to be.  But as long as this forum exists, I am determined that it will be as open and as independent as possible.  That means, sometimes, there are discussions that are not automatically in favor of the company.  But those discussions should be encouraged, because a strong company can only grow by having that kind of openness.  This belief has always been the cornerstone of this forum from the day it was formed.

It?s as though the conspiracy theorists have taken over. They don?t want answers, they just want confirmation that aliens have taken over the planet.

I don't see any evidence of this.

You had one of the most knowledgeable engineers outside of Germany that was willing to spend some time looking into Kapex issues, and you slammed the door. It doesn?t matter what the topic is, the discussions are all the same, and they are thinly veiled under the guise of wanting to learn more. This is not how you learn more.

Who is this "most knowledgeable" engineer you are referring to?  I honestly don't know what you're talking about.  When did I slam the door on anyone inside or outside of Germany (or Festool)?  Just the opposite, I am calling for them to come in and explain this.  Since we are customers here, I am confident they will get a good reception and benefit from being engaged.

When you alienate the very people that you are trying to get answers from, you will never get answers. What I have noticed is that anyone that attempts to present sound information is automatically suspect. If they are reviewing a tool, they must be a liar or in the pocket of Festool if they didn?t buy the tool, regardless what they have to say. If they are a dealer or other person that has a direct communication through Festool, they must have ulterior motives and cannot be trusted in what they say.

Again, I'm not sure what you mean.  I've worked very hard to keep things fair in this forum.  When it came to the issue of reviewers receiving free tools, I've always emphasized that we should trust them, that the forum is all about trust.  I've never suggested that they are suspect.  Just the opposite.  Take a look at the "Who is and Who Isn't" discussion and you will see what I mean.

You?re right. The forum software tells us that Festool continues to read the forum but hasn?t responded in almost a month. I don?t blame them one bit. It?s too bad, because the people that truly do want to learn more about the products or company aren?t going to get the answers because a small minority of users have turned the forum into a quagmire.

Again, Festool has been welcomed to provide answers.  This forum is an independent group of smart customers, but everyone here supports the company because we feel Festool makes great tools.  The company gains tremendously by getting engaged in this kind of discussion and giving us some information.  I've tried to welcome that, because I think it is important.  That's the purpose of this forum.

This is a challenging discussion, but it is right in line with the very idea of this forum.

Stay in touch,
Matthew

 

[pmkierst]

Am I missing the definition of level playing field?

I don't think so: I'm suggesting there is no reason why the playing field should be level. More clearly: There is no particular reason why "fair" should enter into anything. People earn their money, they don't get it because it is fair.

If its the same price, then the dealers can only compete on knowledge service and speed.

There is where the problem is. They can't offer reduced service for a lower price. They can't offer extra service for an higher price. They are locked in, and the consumer is locked in. It is just blind protection. Under such a system, on-line dealers (which incur extra cost and cannot service as thoroughly as a local) can only exist if the local guy is really miserable (or a local dealer is unavailable). If that is so, then why do you want to protect that local guy? Why not let the on-line guy, who almost certainly operates with less staff and overhead, pass the savings on and make himself a buck if the local guy isn't living up to his obligations? Or let the customer decide what service level they want? Because ultimately this kind of channel control is all about making sure the customer doesn't get to decide, outside of switching vendors, which would seem to me to be a poor outcome.

We have all ready discussed why discounting leads to price wars which lead to poor quality ad infinitum

We didn't all agree, though. I see no reason to accept that as fact.

 

[b_m_hart]

There is where the problem is. They can't offer reduced service for a lower price. They can't offer extra service for an higher price. They are locked in, and the consumer is locked in. It is just blind protection. Under such a system, on-line dealers (which incur extra cost and cannot service as thoroughly as a local) can only exist if the local guy is really miserable (or a local dealer is unavailable). If that is so, then why do you want to protect that local guy? Why not let the on-line guy, who almost certainly operates with less staff and overhead, pass the savings on and make himself a buck if the local guy isn't living up to his obligations? Or let the customer decide what service level they want? Because ultimately this kind of channel control is all about making sure the customer doesn't get to decide, outside of switching vendors, which would seem to me to be a poor outcome.

Online dealers typically typically operate at a lower expense (note: typically, not always).  Why is this?  It means that they require less floor space for displaying tools.  Less staff.  Less consumables for demonstrations.  Etc. Etc. Etc.

What Festool is doing here is allowing you to decide to buy from based not on price, but on relative value.  What they're trying to do is to encourage their resellers to develop a good knowledge of their products and how to sell them - as in, add value.  As you mention, this isn't always the case, but there's nothing illegal about them setting the prices that their tools sell at.

Yes, all of the previous posts that have gone on about how they can't set the price.  It's perfectly legal and within their rights for them to sell their product at whatever price they so choose.  Bear in mind that the people that sell Festool are their agents, and contractually obligated to do certain things.  If they don't want to do it Festool's way, that's fine, no one is forcing them into the agreement.

By the way, I still think it's a bummer that I can't get my 25% off through a third party, even if it isn't beneficial to Festool's distribution model.

 

[greg mann]

There is where the problem is. They can't offer reduced service for a lower price. They can't offer extra service for an higher price. They are locked in, and the consumer is locked in. It is just blind protection. Under such a system, on-line dealers (which incur extra cost and cannot service as thoroughly as a local) can only exist if the local guy is really miserable (or a local dealer is unavailable). If that is so, then why do you want to protect that local guy? Why not let the on-line guy, who almost certainly operates with less staff and overhead, pass the savings on and make himself a buck if the local guy isn't living up to his obligations? Or let the customer decide what service level they want? Because ultimately this kind of channel control is all about making sure the customer doesn't get to decide, outside of switching vendors, which would seem to me to be a poor outcome.

We have all ready discussed why discounting leads to price wars which lead to poor quality ad infinitum

We didn't all agree, though. I see no reason to accept that as fact.

You might want to reassess you last statement in light of what you wrote prior, which I highlighted. I think it is very much in Festool's best interest, and ours as customers, to not accept marketing strategies that would encourage a race to the bottom. There is no blind protection here. If anyone wants to change their point of purchase they can. Festool just doesn't want that decision to be based on price because they perceive that to not be in their or their customer's best interest. By not allowing discounting Festool is protecting the investment that their best customers have made, those who line up in the beginning and pay what they believe will be the uniform price. If I pay $1300 for the Kapex and Festool allows a discounting after the fact then I my investment has been devalued.

 

[rnt80]

There is where the problem is. They can't offer reduced service for a lower price. They can't offer extra service for an higher price. They are locked in, and the consumer is locked in. It is just blind protection. Under such a system, on-line dealers (which incur extra cost and cannot service as thoroughly as a local) can only exist if the local guy is really miserable (or a local dealer is unavailable). If that is so, then why do you want to protect that local guy? Why not let the on-line guy, who almost certainly operates with less staff and overhead, pass the savings on and make himself a buck if the local guy isn't living up to his obligations? Or let the customer decide what service level they want? Because ultimately this kind of channel control is all about making sure the customer doesn't get to decide, outside of switching vendors, which would seem to me to be a poor outcome.

We have all ready discussed why discounting leads to price wars which lead to poor quality ad infinitum

We didn't all agree, though. I see no reason to accept that as fact.

You might want to reassess you last statement in light of what you wrote prior, which I highlighted. I think it is very much in Festool's best interest, and ours as customers, to not accept marketing strategies that would encourage a race to the bottom. There is no blind protection here. If anyone wants to change their point of purchase they can. Festool just doesn't want that decision to be based on price because they perceive that to not be in their or their customer's best interest. By not allowing discounting Festool is protecting the investment that their best customers have made, those who line up in the beginning and pay what they believe will be the uniform price. If I pay $1300 for the Kapex and Festool allows a discounting after the fact then I my investment has been devalued.

I might be being way too finicky here but doesn't it depend on how you determine value?  In this instance the Kapex sells for $1300 but to others (I'll pick on Eiji since he mentioned this in a previous thread) it's worth twice that.  Conversely there are those out there that wouldn't dream of paying $1300 for it because they don't value it that much.  If we're talking about resale value then I agree with you.  If I purchase the Kapex for $1300 and the next guy picks it up for $200 less the saw holds no less value for me.  I may be upset that I missed out on a great deal but in my situation it was worth paying $1300 for it and  regardless of what someone else pays it still holds that value for me.

 

[pmkierst]

Yes but I don't want Festool deciding what is best for me. I don't give a crap what they think, frankly. They aren't my mum, though I don't let her decide, either.

Seriously, again, if the customers don't care about service and want the lowest price (I am not in that category, just to be clear), then why should Festool foist it upon them? If customers do care about service, they'll ignore the lower service low price offerings. It would seem to be Festool's opinion that the customer is too stupid to make up their own minds about what they require.

There are middle grounds available. They don't have to make it a free for all. Rebate programs, packaging programs, etc. can all be encouraged or allowed. "If you don't like it, walk" can eventually leads to outcomes the company may not favour.

 

[Brice Burrell]

Yes but I don't want Festool deciding what is best for me. I don't give a crap what they think, frankly. They aren't my mum, though I don't let her decide, either......

Festool does have the right to decide what's right for them. This decicion is right them. I happen to feel it's right for the customers too.

 

[pmkierst]

I'm no sure what rights have to do with it (they have the right to quadruple all their prices, dance a jig and paint them pink if they want), and the debate, I though, was -- at least in part -- what is good for them.

 

[monte]

As an active participant here I agree that debate is all well and good, 

but can I politely ask that we take a deep breath,

and keep the tone here ....on a civil level?

 

[Brice Burrell]

I'm no sure what rights have to do with it (they have the right to quadruple all their prices, dance a jig and paint them pink if they want), and the debate, I though, was -- at least in part -- what is good for them.

My point isn't about rights. The point is Festool acted in their best interest. Some people are critical of Festool's actions without looking at the big picture, read RD's post #24. Now let's talk are rights, Festool has the right to look at this big picture (and I'm glad they are.) Sure it's too bad the big picture doesn't include you getting a $200 discount and you have a right to be upset by that.

Inderectly related to my point is buying tools on price point. When tools are sold at a discount at the large home centers, Amazon and the like, sooner or later everyone has to sell at this lower price to compete. This lowers the value of the tools, then the manufacturer is forced to lower the cost to maintain profits, this lowers the quality of the product. Want proof, go to any HomeDepot and pick up a tool, is it the same quality it was ten years ago? Festool is choosing not to follow this path and I'm going to support their efforts even that means you don't get your $200 discount any more. My 2 cents.