No more Festool on Ebay.com or live.com

[pmkierst]

Sure it's too bad the big picture doesn't include you getting a $200 discount and you have a right to be upset by that.

I did't qualify for the $200 discount; it was unavailable to me. And I didn't particularly desire it; I'd prefer a local dealer (also at least partially unavailable to me) at full price.

Inderectly related to my point is buying tools on price point. When tools are sold at a discount at the large home centers, Amazon and the like, sooner or later everyone has to sell at this lower price to compete. This lowers the value of the tools, then the manufacturer is forced to lower the cost to maintain profits, this lowers the quality of the product. Want proof, go to any HomeDepot and pick up a tool, is it the same quality it was ten years ago?

That is a single market. By your reasoning, there would be no (much higher priced) Japanese cars or European ones. Not to mention numerous other high quality goods sold for a premium. There are multiple markets, and clearly Festool isn't in the Home Depot market. And, at the end of the day, those companies probably make more money then Festool, if we want to harp on "what's best" for a company (and then I'd have to quit buying Festool if they went that route).

Festool is choosing not to follow this path and I'm going to support their efforts even that means you don't get your $200 discount any more. My 2 cents.

Again, it isn't about me. I couldn't get the discount anyway.

 

[Brice Burrell]

Well, my post doesn't have to mean you in referance to the discount and I'm sure you understand that. As I'm sure you understand my point about Festool's choices to not be a part of the "price point" market. It's small choices like this one that keep them out of the the price point market and in the premium market.

And lets not assume a higher valume of sales to match that of the other larger tool companies is what is best for Festool.

 

[Joemac]

I'm no sure what rights have to do with it (they have the right to quadruple all their prices, dance a jig and paint them pink if they want), and the debate, I though, was -- at least in part -- what is good for them.

My point isn't about rights. The point is Festool acted in their best interest. Some people are critical of Festool's actions without looking at the big picture, read RD's post #24. Now let's talk are rights, Festool has the right to look at this big picture (and I'm glad they are.) Sure it's too bad the big picture doesn't include you getting a $200 discount and you have a right to be upset by that.

Inderectly related to my point is buying tools on price point. When tools are sold at a discount at the large home centers, Amazon and the like, sooner or later everyone has to sell at this lower price to compete. This lowers the value of the tools, then the manufacturer is forced to lower the cost to maintain profits, this lowers the quality of the product. Want proof, go to any HomeDepot and pick up a tool, is it the same quality it was ten years ago? Festool is choosing not to follow this path and I'm going to support their efforts even that means you don't get your $200 discount any more. My 2 cents.

Brice, I support your right to your opinion even though I disagree with it.  No matter what price the retailer sells an item at, if all retailers are charged the same base price for the product, the sale price is irrelevant to the manufacturer as the price difference comes from the retailer's pocket.  I do however have one question:  Do you pay for each Festool product that you use and if you do pay for each, is it the same price that we, the general public pay?  If you don't pay for each one, who or what supplied them to you?

Again, I'm not trying to stir the pot, I only want to know from what side of the street your perspective comes.

Thanks

 

[Per Swenson]

Sounds good in principle Joe,

But then the small FESTOOL ONLY dealer is going out of business in a month.

Because he can no longer compete with a brick and mortar where the rest of their inventory

covers overhead.

The Festool only expert is the one who keeps the woodcraft(s) on their toes.

The Festool only dealer is why Ron from McFeelys (recently purchased by Grainiger)

is on this board with us.  You ever been in a Grainger's?

I am a poor carpenter from New Jersey fer criisakes,

I should be pulling up to the job with a caulk gun and a Harbor Freight truck.

But i don't and that lends me a edge over my competition.

So, the end result in your way of reselling Festool, we get left with the

two biggest giants, Ron looses his job etc. Because there is no incentive for

service, and by service, I am talking from how a tool works, to getting it repaired.

What would be the next logical progression taking the world as it is now?

Phone calls on questions of product knowledge being answered in Bangalore?

You want a knowledgeable dealer or a 18 year old high school kid makin 7 bucks an hour

who wouldn't know shiza from shinola, or take the time to learn to help you with a problem?

Per

 

[Per Swenson]

One other little thing,

Do you think we would have this little cult thing going here if

Festool wasn't just a little bit exclusionary?

Per

 

[pmkierst]

Well, no, of course not

 

[tvgordon]

One could say there are advantages to anything.  For instance, you could say that a brick-and-mortar store has an unfair advantage over an internet dealer.  A customer can see the tool, demo the tool, see how all the accessories work and take the tool home immediately.  No wondering how the tool will fit your hand, no wondering what accessories you need and how they all fit on the tool and no waiting on the UPS truck.  Sure you can send the tool back within 30 days if you don't like it, but then you could be without the tool that would have done the job for several weeks.

My point is (I think I have one ) that if you have a dealer that you like buying from and ask them to post a tool on ebay for you that I believe many, if not all, would do it.  The dealer with the best service is still going to get the sale.  You don't have to buy from the dealers that list on ebay all the time, anyone can list a tool on ebay for you.

I can see both sides of the argument, but I feel the "playing field" isn't that un-level.  The dealers are not discounting the tools and Festool is still earning full price.  I don't see them being sold at a Walmart anytime soon. ;D

Tom.

 

[Per Swenson]

Tom.

I understand and concur completely.

Lets review for a second.

The guys (dealers) selling on ebay did not break any rules.

They did nothing wrong.

They did not discount the tools.

A third party provided the cash incentive.

Throwing a unintentional wrench in the works.

So what is the likely course of action that was taken to level the playing field?

And here we are today.

It was a loophole in a functioning system a enterprising fella, as Mr.Hart noted, you could drive a truck through

and  if allowed to continue could theoretically, no actually, hurt the small dealer

who wasn't privy to the same incentives.

Call me a commie everybody else does, but fair is fair.

Per

 

[Tim Sproul]

On a level playing field then Bill satan's off spring, should offer the opportunity to subsidize every festool purchase.

I think they do offer this.  Last I checked, anyone could sell on ebay.  I have no information about the live.com thing.  But I'm pretty sure one of the big draws to ebay is that ANYONE can sell on ebay.  To me, that is a level playing field.  If a dealer chooses not to incur the added cost/fees of ebay, that is their choice.  If a dealer chooses to incur the cost, that is also their choice.  No?  Yes?

What will Festool do when they learn that I get a 3% rebate through my credit card but Per only gets 0.5% rebate on his card?  Will my credit card be blacklisted as a purchasing tool for Festools because I pay less for my Festools than Per?

 

[Per Swenson]

Yes Tim all true,

But what if the live "whatever"  giving 25% percent and a dealer (I have no Idea)

is only profiting 20%?

This is not about your credit rating or my lack of one.

Its about 25% off a fixed price item.

per

 

[tvgordon]

Per, I understand why they did it.  As I and many others have said, the little guys can sell on ebay too and the discounts are temporary.

But, the bottom line is, no matter what our opinions are, Festool will do what it feels is fair to all it's dealers and to avoid what might hurt the perceived value of its tools.

Tom.

 

[Per Swenson]

Tom,

We are saying the same thing. ;D

Per

 

[Bob Marino]

I just want to say a few more things...again. The bottom line has been mentioned here - Festool wants dealers to compete on service, not price. And they will do what they feel is neccesary to ensure that happens. They have looked at various business models and feel that LONG TERM, this is the model, for all the reasons mentioned,  they prefer to grow their business
There are differences/pluses and minuses for being an on-line dealer, brick and mortar or a combination. As a budding (temporary) store, I just paid over $90.00 to ship an MFT!!!!! If I had a walk-in, that's $95.00 saved!
Either way, one thing I am thankful for is that I can spend time with a person on the phone or in person and not have to worry that I will be undersold by another dealer, offering a lower price - or an online "deal" that effectively undercuts some dealers.
I like a deal (I am from Brooklyn ya know) - who doesn't? But am heartened that Festool is not in any way shape or manner joing the other companies to that race to the bottom.

Anyhooo, I am off my soapbox.

Bob

 

[Brice Burrell]

Brice, I support your right to your opinion even though I disagree with it.  No matter what price the retailer sells an item at, if all retailers are charged the same base price for the product, the sale price is irrelevant to the manufacturer as the price difference comes from the retailer's pocket.  I do however have one question:  Do you pay for each Festool product that you use and if you do pay for each, is it the same price that we, the general public pay?  If you don't pay for each one, who or what supplied them to you?

Again, I'm not trying to stir the pot, I only want to know from what side of the street your perspective comes.

Thanks

Joe, while I feel it is inappropriate for you or anyone else to ask what I pay for my tools I'll answer your question. Yes, I have received free Festool products, I received a Kapex and a few router accessories to review. The rest of the Festool products I have I paid full retail price just like every Festool customer. Now you know know everthing.

You want to know my secret motavation for siding with Festool decision on this matter, well here it is...there isn't one! I already said why I think Festool should have a certain amout of controll over it pricing. RD said it in his post:

I spent 30 years in the marketing department of a huge company which makes products that are technically very sophisticated, -- much more so then Festool's  (agricultural sector of the economy).  If the product furnishes value to the end-user, it is in everyone's best long-term interest (including the consumers) that margins are maintained in the distribution chain, or support for the product will completely evaporate.  Dealers will no longer provide shelf space, technical knowledge or technical service on the product.  The manufacturer will cease to invest in developing and enhancing the technology.  Good long-term marketing is not just having a discount that is greater than the next guy down the road.  Next thing you know, the product is being made is some third world country and quality falls apart.  Good marketing is bringing the total package that your customer needs -- value, knowledge, product availability, product improvement, etc.  The Ebay --- Amazon --- etc approach is awful for support ---- the whole thing is price and usually relatively quick shipping.  Granted these things are important, but they aren't everything that makes for good marketing.  Festool has done the right thing here to level the playing field.........

I make money with my Festool tools and I want the company to continue to provide not only good service but the most cutting edge tools in the market long into the future. Controlling its prices standards of service and who, where and how the tools are sold helps ensure its future.

 

[Julian Tracy]

Joe, while I feel it is inappropriate for you or anyone else to ask what I pay for my tools I'll answer your question. Yes, I have received free Festool products, I received a Kapex and a few router accessories to review. The rest of the Festool products I have I paid full retail price just like every Festool customer. Now you know know everthing.

Brice,

I disagree.  I think that anyone who offers themselves up as product reviewers should acknowledge any circumstances relating to their relative impartiality.

To not do so would indeed be inappropriate.

The fact that you've received free expensive tools that you are providing reviews for does not necessarily suggest slanted reviews or corporate viewpoints, and I myself have benefited from your articles and advice given here - I'm glad that you do what you do.

It's actually quite rare to have the reviewer be the recipient of free goods - lucky you; but it should be noted to allow your readers to make their own fair and balanced opinions of the information they have been given.

Now you may say that you are just a regular contractor who happens to enjoy using and writing about the tools of your choice - mind your own business.  But the minute you start getting free stuff to review on a public forum, you very much become a bit closer to Jerry Works (who obviously works for Festool) for example, than just another guy on the street.

The above is not meant to suggest any bias in your reviews than that which is inherent in all of us Festool devotees, based on the excellance of the product and the results given when using them.

Regards,

Julian

 

[Brice Burrell]

Julian, I hate to get too far off topic but I want to address this. There is a misconception that I've not been up front about receiving tools to review. The first products I ever reviewed, in which I received for free, were some of the Festool router accessories, that was last November. Before the reviews were even out I made it public information (through posts here on the FOG) that I was working with Festool to help get some info out on the lesser know router accessories. Since then the only Festool product I received for review was the Kapex, again before the review was out that too was public information. I don't receive free or discounted tools on a regular basis, I am not on Festool's payroll nor has Festool ever asked me to promote their products in a general way. The reviews I've mentioned here is the only work I've ever done for them. This information is all public, if people choose not to take the time to look for it, that's not my problem (although it's not hard to find, it is in ever Festool sponsored review I've posted here and in other posts as well).

Now, as to disclosing what I pay for tools as it relates to this thread, I repeat, it is no one's business and it is inappropriate to even ask.

 

[doganbora]

So far I heard most of The American Retail Follies on this subject: 

On line dealers have an unfair advantage because they do not have a physical presence and overhead and sales tax advantage over Local Brick & Mortar Business.  I suggest some of us use the local dealer's display, knowledge and time and go home and order on line to avoid sales tax. 

Some of us will demand great service, excellent quality, superior engineering but won't want to pay a primium.  Where do we think excellence comes from.

Loyalty to a brand or dealer is only $ Dollar deep.

We can rationalize driving around for 3 hours and burn $20 dollars worth of gas to save $10 at a business we know or care a little about.

We will ride our car to the gym and get on a treadmill to walk nowhere and pay a business for the privilege.

I am happy to continue to pay Festool for the choice of quality they give me.

I wish we could stop letting the promotion monster making decisions for us and rely on the wisdom that used to be passed on to us by the old mentors who found the way before us.

 

[Toller]

If anyone needs help with a product(s) or would like to order you can call me at 800-249-5591 or www.utterguys.com and ask for Andrew

Really?  Then why did you blacklist me so I couldn't order from you?  Fortunately I was able to buy my Kapex just as easily elsewhere.

 

[utterguys]

Toller,

You were the 1st person to contact me about a rebate and I had not heard on any rebates available, until the day prior to me starting this topic and as you said in one of your previous posts I thought it was a scam, also you asked to be refunded if it did not go through on the MS rebate, I was not willing to take the risk. Also the way eBay works is they charge for every item we sell and list. If it do not go through I would have had to file a nonpaying bidder against your eBay account to get my fees back and that is a long drawn out process. I did not want it to turn into a problem so I blocked you from buying. If you want me to take you off the block list I will do so just email me your user name on eBay to andrewutterguys@yahoo.com and I will do so.

Andrew

 

[Toller]

You didn't have to do what I asked, but what was the point of blacklisting me?  If I had figured out some way to defraud Paypal I certainly wouldn't have warned you first.  Your actions made no sense at all.
Festool Junkie didn't agree either, but was glad to sell me one.
No, I don't need to be taken off your blacklist, as I can't see ever having to buy anything from you.