Old Glue Strength Test

[jaguar36]

I tend to buy glue by the gallon, but then I end up not using it for awhile either because it gets lost on the shelf or whatever.  Titebond says it only has a shelf life of two years.  I wanted to see if the strength actually degrades beyond that.  I've also always heard that the strength of the glue doesn't matter as its always stronger than the wood.  So I built a test rig based on ASTM D905 to test the strength.  I made up a bunch of samples out of both oak and cherry as I thought they had the best chance of being stronger than the glue.  I tested 5 different types of Titebond glues,  a 5 Year old bottle of Titebond Original, a new bottle, as well as Titebond 2, 3 and Hide glue.  Here is the results:

Cherry:
[attachimg=1]

Oak:
[attachimg=2]

Looking at the results for Cherry it doesn't appear to matter that the glue was old.  However on the oak the old glue does appear to be about 10% weaker.  It is possible that is correct and it just doesn't show up with the cherry as the cherry wood isn't strong enough to show it.  10% could also just be a statistical anomaly,  with only 7 samples a 10% variation is easily within the error of the testing.

I was also glad to see that indeed the strength of the glue matter between the 3 'normal' types.  (Hide glue obviously being weaker) 

Why do folks use Titebond 2?  It seems like its the worst of the three?  Very short open time, not as water proof as Titebond 3, more expensive than Original.  And yet it is apparently the best selling Titebond.

If you want to see just how I did the testing, check out the video here:

 

[Packard]

In the early 1980s I still had my picture framing business, and the glue of choice back then was white glue (AKA “Elmers”).

Framica Corp. came out with a new glue back then called “Corner Weld”.  I tested it and it was at least 3 times as strong as white glue.  They claimed that it was specially formulated for end grain to end grain applications (i.e., miters).

I labored under the illusion that it would be preferred over Titebond in end grain to end grain applications. 

A couple of years ago I retested (just two pieces of each, and using weight lifting plates for load) and found that the Corner Weld and Titebond III got almost exactly the same results.

The big difference is that Corner Weld starts to set up in under a minute.  When I rub the two mitered ends together with glue on them, they start to stick in about 30 seconds.  Open time is probably 2 - 3 minutes.  That is plenty of time when you are using an underpinned to “clamp” the joint.  And it allows finishing the frame just a couple of hours later (though I’ve fitted art to frames just 15 minutes after joining).  The under pinned V-nails hold the corners fairly stable on their own. 

Such short open times would be a headache for normal woodwork.  The Corner Weld is also a more viscous glue and does not drip nearly as much.  But the claim that it was superior for end grain to end grain was probably just marketing.

This is a modern pneumatic underpinner.  The first minute or so are just how to load the V-nails.  The operator is not using glue, which some companies find to be OK, but it will not be satisfactory over time.  The frames from the old Pier I Imports were V-nailed only—no glue.  A sure indication that the frame was of substandard quality.


When I was in the business, a foot pedal operated underpinner was about $500.00. And pneumatic ones were $1,500.00 to $3,000.00.  I have no idea what they currently cost, but a huge time saver for a framer.

 

[luvmytoolz]

When I was in the business, a foot pedal operated underpinner was about $500.00. And pneumatic ones were $1,500.00 to $3,000.00.  I have no idea what they currently cost, but a huge time saver for a framer.

I recently bought a fully working one for $50, I think the guy selling it really didn't know what it was, but to fair neither did I, I just wanted it for the pneumatics and foot press to make some timber clamping systems!

 

[ChuckM]

TB2, suitable for gluing systems, is stronger than TB1:
http://www.titebond.com/community/the-big-three

 

[Packard]

When I was in the business, a foot pedal operated underpinner was about $500.00. And pneumatic ones were $1,500.00 to $3,000.00.  I have no idea what they currently cost, but a huge time saver for a framer.

I recently bought a fully working one for $50, I think the guy selling it really didn't know what it was, but to fair neither did I, I just wanted it for the pneumatics and foot press to make some timber clamping systems!

That is definitely a picture framers’ underpinner.  I wish I had kept mine.  I did keep my sliding table miter saw, which makes miters easier and faster than butt joints on any other equipment. 

If I had an underpinner, I would use miters for face frames.  It would be faster than pocket screws and if glued, strong enough for that application.

 

[sancho57]

living in Az with the summer temps running above 100 from mid june to mid oct, I find for me its best to buy small bottles/containers of stuff for the shop. Glue and finishes take a beating in the heat so I try to buy finishes by the quart and glue by the smallest bottle i can find.

Im getting tired of tossing out half gallons of unused finish and unused glue...

 

[Packard]

living in Az with the summer temps running above 100 from mid june to mid oct, I find for me its best to buy small bottles/containers of stuff for the shop. Glue and finishes take a beating in the heat so I try to buy finishes by the quart and glue by the smallest bottle i can find.

Im getting tired of tossing out half gallons of unused finish and unused glue...

No bomb shelters?  They would probably be the desired “cool dark” storage space.

I, on the other hand, cannot store paint or glue in my garage.  Freeze-thaw cycle is bad for glues and finishes. 

We all have to learn to make accommodations to our environments.  The problem now is that environments are changing. 

I would like for some companies to pack glue in hermetically sealed cans (like beer cans) that could be opened when refilling dispensing containers. 

“Six-pack of Titebond III, please.”

Joking aside, would hermetically sealed tin cans extend glue life?

 

[Crazyraceguy]

[member=74278]Packard[/member] I could see buying larger quantities in smaller separate containers, but I would think that metal would be a problem? Your "six-pack" idea is sort of like they do with super glue, 3 of the tiny tubes in a blister pack. I assume for the same reason, once opened the clock is ticking. Many times, super glue only gets one use in the average home and is dried up on the next attempt. Second use, second bottle.
Wood glue is not as bad, the shelf life is longer, but it does still have one.
In the big shop, where I work, this is never an issue. We get it in 5 gallon buckets.

 

[woodbutcherbower]

What are these 'quarts' and 'gallons' of which you speak? I have absolutely NO idea what you're all talking about [unsure]

 

[PaulMarcel]

What are these 'quarts' and 'gallons' of which you speak? I have absolutely NO idea what you're all talking about [unsure]

Well, for that side of the pond, those are 2 beers and 4 beers respectively.

 

[woodbutcherbower]

Well, for that side of the pond, those are 2 beers and 4 beers respectively.

Thanks Paul. It’s actually 2 pints and 8 pints imperial - but understood !!!  [big grin] [big grin] [big grin]

 

[peter halle]

[member=74278]Packard[/member] I could see buying larger quantities in smaller separate containers, but I would think that metal would be a problem? Your "six-pack" idea is sort of like they do with super glue, 3 of the tiny tubes in a blister pack. I assume for the same reason, once opened the clock is ticking. Many times, super glue only gets one use in the average home and is dried up on the next attempt. Second use, second bottle.
Wood glue is not as bad, the shelf life is longer, but it does still have one.
In the big shop, where I work, this is never an issue. We get it in 5 gallon buckets.

As a sidenote, I watched a few YouTube videos by Scott Grove and he mentioned that since super glues attract water and then cure in the bottles that in order to elongate life, if the bottles are UNOPENED then store in refrigerator but if OPENED store in closed airtight container (he used a coffee can) with desiccant packs to absorb moisture.

Peter

 

[woodbutcherbower]

In my experience, the best type of cyano superglues are 2-packs. The glue itself comes in a PTFE bottle, and you also get an aerosol can of catalyst activator. The catalyst is applied to one surface, the glue to the other. Bring the two together, and it's set in around 10 seconds. The glue doesn't go off in the bottle. It's marketed over here as Mitrebond, Mighty Mitre and so on. Something similar has to be available in NA I would have thought.

Also - for UK readers - a good all-rounder wood glue is Everbuild 502. I've been using it for years with zero failures. Like other cross-linked glues. however, it chalks and won't bond if the temperature is too low. Anything below 7-8C - and PU is your only realistic option.

 

[Euclid]

In the case of Mitrebond and its ilk, is the adhesive - and thus the procedure - different then from using a regular CA glue with an accelerator spray? I have some Mitrebond - haven't used it yet - but hadn't considered that the other component (so an activator rather than an accelerator?) was essential.

 

[Crazyraceguy]

What are these 'quarts' and 'gallons' of which you speak? I have absolutely NO idea what you're all talking about [unsure]

I know you are joking. Even though your lot buy Petrol by the Liter, you still refer to fuel milage as "miles per gallon" Something I have always found hilarious.  [blink] I have seen/heard the Top Gear guys say that a million times. They refer to miles per hour for speed too.

In my experience, the best type of cyano superglues are 2-packs. The glue itself comes in a PTFE bottle, and you also get an aerosol can of catalyst activator. The catalyst is applied to one surface, the glue to the other. Bring the two together, and it's set in around 10 seconds. The glue doesn't go off in the bottle. It's marketed over here as Mitrebond, Mighty Mitre and so on. Something similar has to be available in NA I would have thought.

Also - for UK readers - a good all-rounder wood glue is Everbuild 502. I've been using it for years with zero failures. Like other cross-linked glues. however, it chalks and won't bond if the temperature is too low. Anything below 7-8C - and PU is your only realistic option.

We have Miter Bond and similar brands here too, but there is a difference between the "CA glue" we use as woodworkers and the typical tiny tubes that you can buy in a local department store or grocery store.

Hey Kevin, can you guys get the American stuff like TiteBond? or is it just too expensive, since you have alternatives that are more locally produced?

 

[woodbutcherbower]

In the case of Mitrebond and its ilk, is the adhesive - and thus the procedure - different then from using a regular CA glue with an accelerator spray? I have some Mitrebond - haven't used it yet - but hadn't considered that the other component (so an activator rather than an accelerator?) was essential.

I’d never actually thought about it to be honest - so I put some glue out on a piece of card and left it. It was still wet and liquid an hour later. A quick spray with the aerosol - and it set and went translucent almost immediately. So I’m guessing it’s an activator.

 

[woodbutcherbower]

[member=58857]Crazyraceguy[/member] I could practically write a book on the multitude of mixed imperial and metric units we still use over here. A big book. A really, really big book ….

And yes, we have Titebond but it’s crazy-expensive over here. I use TB3 when I’m building stuff for unpainted outdoor applications and it has to be ‘foolproof-waterproof’ - it’s the best I’ve found and I hate using PU. Horrible, messy stuff. I can only use it for 8-9 months of the year though, the rest of the time it’s too cold. I’ll get round to installing some heating when I retire and comfort becomes more important than schedules and workload  [big grin]

 

[Crazyraceguy]

[member=75780]woodbutcherbower[/member] We actually do the same over here. Most of the things we buy "by weight" have been modified over the years to be a metric "round number". It may still be labelled in ounces, but those ounces are no longer the simple 8 or 12 or 16 like they used to be. They are rounded to 500grams or 1 kilo, whatever is appropriate, and the ounces end up as 14.9 or something like that.
Liquor bottles used to be 1/5th of a gallon. I have no idea why, it was just a thing? But as metric crept in they all switched to 750ml.
You can still buy beer by the quart, but it's only the cheapest junk that only certain people buy.
Then you have the crazy thing of "fluid ounce" which is a measure of volume, not weight.
I think what you guys refer to as a "pint" is about 20 ounces here, which is more than our standard of 16 ounces.
From what I understand, the Canadians are just as bad at mixing measures.