Please help a newbie figure out what is needed for picture frame making

[Jarveu Fumm]

Hello, I hope I am posting this in the right area.

I'm part of of an arts collective. We'd like to go in together on some tools for making picture frames from solid hardwood. I have woodworking experience, but have never drunk the green Koolaid before. However, it might be time. We have workspace but we have to repurpose it two or three times a month, depending upon what is going on. So a big bench and floor mounted machines and a fixed dust collection system is out of the question. There are only two of us who know how to sharpen tools, and we don't want to have to do all the sharpening for the group, so hand tools - like a shooting plane to true up the corners - are out of the question.  Therefore, I've been thinking for a few days about Festool - it strikes me as the one solution we could pack-up and store away for three weeks out of every four, and each tool would have its own dust collection.

Lets assume that we are buying our hardwood mouldings, already profiled, unfinished, from a supplier like Smith Frame And Moulding in CT. We then need to cut to length/miter, joint, sand, and finish.
*Could we do both cutting operations with a jigsaw? Smaller, lighter, cheaper than the Kapex, and I'm hoping that we could somehow do everything on just one MFT.
*Would we need to tidy up those miters before jointing?
*Any thoughts about what we could do to reinforce those miters on big pieces?
*Which sander would be best given that we will have profiled, not flat, faces?

Incidentally, I'm just assuming that the mouldings are all going to be straight and flat after they have acclimatized to our space. I hope that is a reasonable assumption.

 

[Stevec717]

It's hard to picture anything but a Kapex to make join-ready miters. Esp if you don't want to clean them up with a shooting plane. As for joining, I'd go right to a domino joinery system. I'm not a framed expert, but when I have a small job where I need a frame, this is how I go. Also I don't know if it's approximate for what you do but Kreg joinery works great on corners but is not  "pretty" from behind the work.

Steve

 

[WarnerConstCo.]

You will need a miter trimmer.  With one of those, any old saw will work to cut the miters.

 

[roblg3]

I think 2 very necessary tools for picture frames is a good mitre saw and at the minimum a reliable handheld ( id be looking for a table mounted) router of at least of 1010 capabilities.  If you're going to be making frames, your going to want to run different profile on the stock.  I know I'd prefer to run a stick and then cut it up which is why i'm thinking a table mount.  obviously if you're running 8,10+ foot stock you'll need in AND outfeed tables of some type by your table router.  if they were portable, you can use the same ones for the miter saw.I doubt you'll need anything as large as say an OF2200 since you're not running exterior barn doors and architectural millwork through the thing.  that's why i suggested a smaller router.  if you think you'll want to run 1/2" shank bits for say rabbets you can step up to a little bit larger router.  If you own 0 routers right now, get the 1400 it'll do 90+% of everything you'll ever want to do.  it may be easier to do with a larger or smaller router, but the 1400 CAN do it. the Kapex is a fantastic saw, it's just hard for me to recommend to a hobbyist? because of the cash outlay.  it has a lot of functions that I hardly use as an everyday guy who gets paid for this stuff, but it's worth it to me because time is money and i don't have to retool to do one function especially when it's kind of a rare function and I may not even have some other tool to do that function with at that moment.  No 1 tool will do every single job in every situation...would be nice!  but there's a dozen different sized phillips screws...not to mention those screws are placed in places where you may need either a longer or shorter driver handle to reach them....and that's just 1 example.  the permutations for just a half a dozen different tools is in the millions [tongue]

 

[shaun.mcc]

Hi Jarveu and welcome to FOG!

I think the MFT is nice for you portability needs. I question if some of the tools are overkill for your application ...but if budget is a non-issue then go for it.

I would think a Festool Kapex Miter Saw would be what you need...though a miter box and a handsaw will fit the bill...or even a cheaper power miter saw...Kapex is well over $1000...miter box is $10-20 (plus a hand saw), a cheap miter saw $100-200. Dust collection might be important for you...don't really need to worry about that if you are cutting by hand with a miter box. I do believe there are small trim powered trim saws (hobby saws) that you could also use for this application.

Regarding joining, spring clamps (Collins Spring Clamps)...wood glue...and some other mechanical fastener means will be required. Perhaps a Festool Domino 500...again might be overkill for your application...but nice & strong.

Regarding sanding...I'm assuming these are all prefinished trim profiles...so only minor hand sanding if needed could be accomplished with a sheet of sandpaper folded over in your hands. For unfinished, a Festool DTS 400 might be good...as it can reach into corners.

Hope that helps.
Shaun

 

[Birdhunter]

I'd look for an accomplished woodworker who owns a miter saw to precut the frame members for you. My experience is that picture frames are mostly standard sizes. Then, all you would have to buy would be a Domino for joining the frame members, tenons, sandpaper, glue, and whatever finish you want to use.

If you don't want to buy the Domino, the accomplished woodworker could also prepare the frame ends for splines. I have made frames with splines of a contrasting color from the frame. They look nice that way.

If you do buy the Domino. the accomplished woodworker could make you a simple jig for holding the frame member while you cut the mortise.

The accomplished woodworker could also make you up some simple gluing jigs with clamps.

As much as I enjoy using Festool products, I think you could get by without spending a lot of money on tools

 

[tbellemare]

You will need a miter trimmer.  With one of those, any old saw will work to cut the miters.

Bingo!

The normal way I know of to make a picture frame is with a miter trimmer. They can shave the miters to virtual perfection, which is what is wanted for a picture frame. It's different than trim carpentry.

There are also special tools to cut the mat properly, with the proper bevels and clean corners.

Tom

EDIT:
Most here seem to be concentrating on sawing but miter trimmers are really sharp and precise guillotines. They shave the miter as opposed to sawing it. It makes a more refined joint.

 

[mouppe]

I cannot understand why anyone would buy a Kapex in order to cut picture frame mitres. I'd buy a premium hand saw with a minimum 14 tpi. A cheap zona saw has over 20 tpi which will give you a finish cut.

You can make a mitre box by gluing two pieces of wood together in an L-profile, then mark the 45 degree angle with an accurate square and cut a kerf in it with the same hand saw you are using to cut the mitres. This will give you a perfectly accurate zero clearance repeatable kerf.

I love my festools but they are not ideal for this particular task.

 

[John Beauchamp]

The miter trimmer works well for smaller light frames but for wide heavier hard wood frames the make specialty saws designed just for that job only. Some just have one blade some two. If you're going to do this commercially try calling a framing shop or framing supply company to find out the names of  saw suppliers. My wife worked in two different frame shops and both used the double bladed saws. said it was the on;ly way to go. I didn't see any standard woodworking tools in either shop. They make special tools for assembly also. Pinners and some kind of wavy blade that went across the joint. 

 

[teocaf]

yes, i agree with miter trimmer advice.  kapex, however will give you more options if you decide to make shadow box frames for example, or if you want to cut aluminum extrusion frames with the kapex non-ferrous blade.

for joinery, i use Logan studio Joiner model F300-1 with the V nails.  Used along with glue, i have not had any problems and i have used it on a lot of frames.  wider frames get more v nails.  for gluing, you might also consider a strap clamping system like Bessey makes or 4 clamps with stands from Bessey or even Jet.

for sanding, i use a Vario Pro shapeable sanding pad and hand sand with great success.  I have used other things but most of my frames are not overly ornate profiles.

by the way, if you guys are interested in a top of the line Valiani manual Mat cutter, I have a great one for sale.  It will do very large mats very precisely and professionally.  send me a PM if interested.  I farm that part out now since I don't do nearly as many as in previous years.

 

[Cheese]

They make special tools for assembly also. Pinners and some kind of wavy blade that went across the joint. 

The wavy blade thing you're talking about is called a corrugated fastener. They're relatively easy to install in soft woods, however in hardwood, you need to install them with a pneumatic gun. The joint also needs to be clamped otherwise, as you try to pound it in with a hammer, it slowly separates the joint or starts to curl over the top of the fastener.

[attachthumb=1]

[attachthumb=2]

[attachthumb=3]

Edit:
The photo above is a bit misleading as it shows installation into pine which is relatively easy, try oak or maple and you will need a pneumatic gun.

 

[WarnerConstCo.]

The miter trimmer works well for smaller light frames but for wide heavier hard wood frames the make specialty saws designed just for that job only. Some just have one blade some two. If you're going to do this commercially try calling a framing shop or framing supply company to find out the names of  saw suppliers. My wife worked in two different frame shops and both used the double bladed saws. said it was the on;ly way to go. I didn't see any standard woodworking tools in either shop. They make special tools for assembly also. Pinners and some kind of wavy blade that went across the joint.

Double trim or miter saw.  Pistorias was a huge maker.  Thats a great machine, but the op wants to be able to pack it up and move the tools out of the way. 

I can shave slivers so thin you see through them in oak, maple, etc with my miter trimmer. 

I actually take it with me sometimes on installs that I want perfect. 

 

[Cheese]

I can shave slivers so thin you see through them in oak, maple, etc with my miter trimmer. 

I actually take it with me sometimes on installs that I want perfect. 

As in window/door trim installs?

 

[WarnerConstCo.]

I can shave slivers so thin you see through them in oak, maple, etc with my miter trimmer. 

I actually take it with me sometimes on installs that I want perfect. 

As in window/door trim installs?

Ones that warrant that level of work, yes. 

They are worth owning.  There are also other varieties out there for other tasks (such as trimming sash bars)

 

[Cheese]

[member=3891]WarnerConstCo.[/member]
That's interesting, because that's the reason I purchased a Kapex. The Milwaukee sliders just did not give me the accuracy that I wanted. Nothing worse than a "bit of air" in each mitre.

What's a ball park price for the miter trimmer you use on-site?

Edit:
And who manufactures it?

 

[WarnerConstCo.]

[member=3891]WarnerConstCo.[/member]
That's interesting, because that's the reason I purchased a Kapex. The Milwaukee sliders just did not give me the accuracy that I wanted. Nothing worse than a "bit of air" in each mitre.

What's a ball park price for the miter trimmer you use on-site?

Edit:
And who manufactures it?

You can pick up a used trimmer for short money. The knives can be sharpened and new ones can be made.

Almost every machinery manufacturer was selling a version of the Lyon trimmer.  I have a fay & egan.

There are new ones available, but I believe the majority are made in china.

My Kapex is great, I get the results I need and want for 95% of my work.  Sometimes I have to do better.

 

[Bohdan]

For years I taught professional and DIY picture framers. The professionals would buy all the tools as they were making lots of frames. The DIY framers did not want to spend the money and wanted to pack everything away after framing.

We tried to use hand tools but most of them didn't have the skill set. The system that I finished up recommending to the DIY framers was to buy a cheap small drop saw with a fine toothed blade. The kind that's sold at the big box stores, not a slider as they introduce too much slop.

For glue clamping a steel banded clamp such as

http://www.carbatec.com.au/professional-framerrsquos-clamp_c8260

works really well if you add small pieces of aluminium angle to align the corners.

A hand operated v nailer is the cheapest

http://www.rockler.com/ezy-framer-v-nail-installation-tool

but if you can afford it there are foot operated models.

Hand mat cutters are fine if you develop the skill.

A proper point driver makes life easy for fixing prints and mats into frames.

http://www.logangraphic.com/product/framing-tools/logan-f500-2-dual-drive-elite/

That should be enough to get started and you can add as the demand increases.

Good luck dealing with artists  ;D

 

[roblg3]

If you need to sand profiled faces ti highly recommend the LS-130.  It's a linear sander not orbital so swirling is not an issue.  There's options to create your own sanding profiles, or contour pads for specific jobs.  It basically does your hand sanding for you.  I love this sander for soo many tasks and it's not particularly expensive for such a specialized tool. 

 

[Jarveu Fumm]

Thanks, everyone, some terrific ideas here. Please keep them coming!

 

[monstrol]

Here is my 2 cents. Get the best chop saw you can afford and a miter sander. Amazon sells the as well as art supply stores.