Please help me plan and critize my garage

[shed9]

Are your barrels in metal? Have you experienced any wearout on the barrel as a result from the dust?

My barrel is metal but to be honest plastic would be better. It certainly doesn't need to be metal and the only reason I went that route was it was easier to mate the large blast gate at the base. If I made another I would go the plastic route as it's lighter and easier to cut. That one you posted would be ideal.

On another note, I like the reflecting material you have in the ceiling!

The material is insulating material from an air con install a few years back. I've got rock wool in the ceiling void and just layered this stuff as a temporary measure to keep the heat in with the intention of installing further boarding. I can't see me changing though it as it is incredibly effective in keeping the place warm and reflecting light, also if I get any tears or problems I can fix it up seamlessly with silver duct tape. I've heavily insulated where I can and this makes a huge difference in terms of heat retention, cooling and noise reduction.

You should probably consider noise pollution in regards to your neighbours if they are in close proximity. If you have to retrospectively install sound insulation it could be a small nightmare. I'm quite fortunate in that the houses (all eight of them) in my village are quite far apart but you would be surprised how far sound travels. Also when people get irritated by noise, they tend to listen for it more and pick up everything - if you know what I mean. There are ways of controlling some noise that doesn't require total room isolation such as just sound insulating the extraction system, types of cutters / blades, etc.

I also think that wrightwoodwork makes a valid point in viewing your process in terms of workflow - sounds obvious but I've seen so many people regret machine layout when its too late to change (especially with fixed ducting and electrical outlets).

The only other advice I would give would be to have some accessible drawers or covered storage somewhere with no particular designated use, probably under your workbench. Do not assign them any use other than as temporary storage and try to discipline yourself to use this to store the crap and detritus that would usually be piled on your workbench before being moved to on top of your combination machine before being moved yet again to another top surface. You know the stuff I mean, the small hand tools, offcuts, pieces of paper, bits you can't be bothered to put away just yet, else you will be forever moving it around for the rest of your natural life. Give yourself a timeslot to clear out that storage area, perhaps every couple of days or once a week. It works for me and keeps you clutter free.

 

[Sjur]

Ideally you want to think of the workshop as a conveyor belt.

Wright, originally it wasn't a priority to make it time effective, but rather space effective. Time isn't really an issue, and carrying materials from machine to machine isn't really that time consuming (I figure the actual math and drawing is). However, looking at the updated layout, it actually looks like it will function like a conveyor belt, and I can't see how to make it more effective. Like you said: lumberstorage -> kapex -> (bandsaw) -> combomachine -> kapex -> joints/sanding at worktable -> assembly at worktable. Possibly finnish before assembly.

My barrel is metal but to be honest plastic would be better. It certainly doesn't need to be metal and the only reason I went that route was it was easier to mate the large blast gate at the base. If I made another I would go the plastic route as it's lighter and easier to cut. That one you posted would be ideal.

Okay, that makes sense. I'd imagine the metal barrel also makes more noise than a plastic one?

You should probably consider noise pollution in regards to your neighbours if they are in close proximity. If you have to retrospectively install sound insulation it could be a small nightmare. I'm quite fortunate in that the houses (all eight of them) in my village are quite far apart but you would be surprised how far sound travels. Also when people get irritated by noise, they tend to listen for it more and pick up everything - if you know what I mean. There are ways of controlling some noise that doesn't require total room isolation such as just sound insulating the extraction system, types of cutters / blades, etc.

The garage is directly below my mother's apartment. She usually isn't there though, and minimal noise goes through anyway, as the concrete deck has insulation in it. However, I have 3 neighbours, whereas one is very close - approximately 5 meters away from the garage door. This is one of the many reasons I want to change the garage door with a wall, as the noise outside will be reduced dramatically (the door is uninsulated and has gaps all over).

The only other advice I would give would be to have some accessible drawers or covered storage somewhere with no particular designated use, probably under your workbench.

Man, what a great tip! I'll definetly do it.

Sjur

 

[Loren Woirhaye]

I think that heavy MFT type table is going to drive you nuts working around it unless all you do is small projects. 

I would put the workbench against the long wall. This allows longer boards to be worked with hand tools on the bench.

 

[Sjur]

Thanks for chiming in, Loren! I have been slightly concerned with that, being you can't really move the table easily. I plan on doing mostly bigger projects (tables, wardrobe, bed, etc). However, I don't really plan on using handtools that much. I made a chess table  with 16 mortise and tenons with a chisel and a hammer as a high school project, and boy, a router would have been so much faster. That being said, I'm definetly going to be using handtools when it's easier - or necessary.

Please correct me if I misunderstood, but if I place the worktable against the long wall, I will be blocked by the bandsaw, the bench and the wall itself, whereas if I have it as an outfeed table, I'll only lose access to 1 side, and if I really want, I can move the combomachine to get full access.

Sjur

 

[Tinker]

You say your garage floor is not level.  Does that mean it is up/down/up/down?
Or is it out of level on a single plane?  When I was doing masonry we had to make a garage floor to, if my memory is correct, about a 1/8" to the foot pitch.  Sometimes a 1/4" to 12" was specified.  The floor was out of level, but the entire floor would be the same pitch from front to back.  If it is all ups and downs with no specific pitch, you might want to, not only have wheels on your benches and machines, but have some means for height adjustment so you can line up machines to have working surfaces on same plane. 
My own floor is out of level in all directions of up and down.  Not bad, but enough so it is difficult working with long items.  I don't have much headroom so using screw type adjusters makes my surfaces too close to the ceiling.  I just keep a pile of shingles and wedges handy if I need to have a long even work surface.  A wedge here and a wedge there is generally enough to even things up.  I do not worry about actually being level in all directions.  I think that wood be impossible.  I just try to have all surfaces, if needed, to be on the same plane.  As long as I use my straight edges and angle devices properly, the work will come out ok.
Hey, our daughter had inlaws in Norway and Denmark. I don't remember any level ground showing in any of the pictures she has.  I think you will work that problem just fine.
Tinker

 

[Loren Woirhaye]

I was thinking a 24" or so deep hand tool bench with a vise and perhaps 24" of  clearance in the horizontal plane on either end to lay long boards on top of it.  I use power tools plenty like anybody here just about, but in making chairs  and instruments using curved and irregular parts that defy square-and-flat compartmentalization in terms of joinery  I'm at the work bench constantly.  If all your work is to be strictly rectilinear and not reliant on handmade decorative elements at all I suppose the argument can be made that hand tools and traditional work benches can be considered nearly obsolete.  Hand planing is a faster way to remove planer marks than any tool shy of a stroke sander, imo, so a bench that can handle hand planing saves time, assuming well tuned planes are available.  As with many things, it depends on what you wish to do.  Time master hand tools is never wasted in my opinion however as it prepares one to undertake the most technical joinery and fine fitting when necessary.

 

[Sjur]

You say your garage floor is not level.  Does that mean it is up/down/up/down?

I found the drawings my grandfather made when he built the garage. It says it's a 1:100 pitch, but he has derailed a few times from the drawings (I learned that the hard way when I drilled through the walls), so I'm not sure I trust it. I have a laser measurer, so I'll check it.

Hey, our daughter had inlaws in Norway and Denmark. I don't remember any level ground showing in any of the pictures she has.  I think you will work that problem just fine.

Haha, thats funny! Yeah, definetly lots of mountains over here. The entire plot of land the house stand on was originally a collection of huge rocks, so it had to be blasted away to make it buildable.

I was thinking a 24" or so deep hand tool bench with a vise and perhaps 24" of  clearance in the horizontal plane on either end to lay long boards on top of it. 

Oooh, that makes sense. If you look closely on the drawing I made, you can see that I didn't make a fence for the kapex on the right side. I made it this way so the bandsaw can freely push planks over, and so I can actually use the space as an additional workbench.
I have a Veritas twin-screw vice that I could install. I was originally planning to use it on the MFT table, but I can see the narrower bench benefits more from it. Also, the MFT table already has plans for a homemade vice.

One thing I'd like to ask though, is using solid wood really necessary for the right part of the bench, or could I get away with using a torsionbox? I want the surface flat with little maintenance.

Sjur

 

[Loren Woirhaye]

I think a torsion box is fine as long as you can restrain yourself from hacking it up or use a sacrificial top.  If you want dog holes or hold-fast holes you'd need to plan for these with the box construction too.  Flush vise jaws work best so the thickness of the sacrificial top needs to be decided before installing vises.  Ian Kirby, a woodworking teacher here in the states who used to write a lot or articles, patented (I think) a design for a torsion box workbench that doubles as a veneer press.  I guess he didn't really see vacuum veneering coming though of course there still are some reasons to use a standard press,  all the press screws do get costly and heavy compared to a bag and pump.

 

[Sjur]

I will use the worktable as a sacrificial top. The bench will stay tip-top shape (atleast thats the plan!)  [unsure]

I googled Ian Kirby and it is indeed patented. A cool idea for sure, but if I find me doing serious veneering anytime soon, I'll just get a pump.
Anyhow, here's a few links I found, if it tickles your fancy:
Ian Kirby book
Patent

 

[Tinker]

When I was in HS shop class, I made a veneered card table.  With some input from my shop teacher, I constructed a press something like Kirby's press you show.  The frame was made up of White oak with three beams holding 3 screws each.  A pad to cover entire table surface was made up with plywood face against the table top and a sort of torsion box frame of Oak for the screw pads to press against.  I was the first in the class to attempt such a project.  I used a pattern made up of bird's eye maple with Cherry pattern in center and border.  Since I was first in class to try such a large veneer, i was the one who made all of the mistooks ..... er.... ah...... :...... demonstrations of what could go wrong.  The cherry came out ok, but the BE maple was full of bubbles.

I have gotten some great advice from our FOG friends about ways to fix the bubbles.  Some day, when I get aroundtoit, I will try the fix.  I won't do it with the same type of press I made nearly 70 years ago.  I'm only 39 and maybe a couple of years smarter >>>>> except in math.
Tinker

 

[Sjur]

Interesting, Tinker.
What got me interested in fine woodworking was in highschool. We didn't really have many tools, nor materials, so you couldn't really make anything big (the materials was cut-offs from like 10 years ago).

I decided to buy the materials instead, as I wanted to build a chess table with different types of wood. After looking for several weeks, I finally found a store that had exotic woods. The frame is made out of european walnut, and the table surfaces are made out of birch ply on the bottom, with teak and birch on the top.
Funny story... The european walnut was actually excess-materials from a cabinet-job in the royal building. Thing is -  Norway has a huge tax on exotic woods because, apparantely, we want to save the environment.

I made a hanger with the excess materials.

[attachimg=1]

Your not supposed to play the way the pieces are set up now. I only placed them like that because I didn't want anyone to scuff them down. This was at the end of the school year, and the parents came to look at what we had made in the workshop.

Back on topic; I have done some more planning. I decided to place the dovetailer machine where the CTL was. I also mapped out some dust collection. Also, I hung up the metal cabinet for screws and miscellaneous.

Sjur

 

[Sjur]

Hey!  [big grin] I haven't been able to do anything woodworking lately, but have done some advancements on my walker turner restoration.

Nevertheless, I have been thinking that if I replace the garage door with a wall, should I get a HVAC unit installed?  [unsure] Originally, I planned an electrical oven as a heater (start it up when I go into the garage and turn it off after I leave).

When the house was under construction, my grandmother worked as a gartner, and she managed to cut some holes in the vapor barrier (not sure if this is the word for it) over the garage. Because of this, some water leaks down. I did some humidity-tests a while back, and the walls was everywhere from 5 to 18, where 7 is the normal. Basically, I'm dealing with a humid garage [sad]

Because of the humidity, I planned to have a dehumidifier. My neighbour has one that he said I could have. However, all of this draws electricity and uses space. And a HVAC air/air unit uses less space, and draws less electricity.

However, I have a question I want to address: Does these units often clog up with dust? Actually, could I use it as an air filtration unit if I place a filter in front of the intake?  [cool] Does anyone have experience with this?

Sjur

 

[Loren Woirhaye]

Did you acquire something by Walker Turner in Norway? 

I wasn't aware of Walker Turner showing up anywhere but N. America. 

 

[Sjur]

Yeah, it definetly traveled a long way! All the way from New Jersey, in fact! Shipping must've been expensive!  [big grin] American machines at that size is rare here, so I was very happy when I drove this beast on the hanger back home. I read of a guy that drove 24 hours (one way) to pick his WT radial drill press up. Luckily for me, it was only a 1 hour trip.

I saw a delta unisaw a while back  [eek], but I had to resist that temptation.

 

[hrrb]

Hi Sjur

I think I'd place my bandsaw and kapex at the long wall as Kev suggests. Mounting them on mobile bases...the Peter Parfit way.

And I'd definitely do something about the floor as Tinker suggests.

But you haven't mentioned the height in your shop which could be an issue regarding my suggestion.

I'm almost in the same situation as you moving my shop from a basement to a shed I'm building on an old concrete foundation with a concrete floor.

My shop floor is very much out of level...actually I don't understand how the former owner could make a concrete floor that much out of level. Anyway!

My plan is to put on a membrane on the concrete floor (to prevent moisture from the ground) - lay a grid of joists, put in 50 mm insulation and a 30mm lacquered pine floor on top of it all (can't afford oak  [crying]).

It gives me a floor in level so I can put all my machinery on casters (don't buy casters too small and too cheap. Been there. Done that. Learned my lesson!)

And it gives me the pleasure of standing on a much more comfortable floor. Standing on a cold concrete floor a whole day won't do your feet any good!

Just my fifty cents  [wink] Good luck with your new work shop.

Kind regards
Henrik

Oh...I forgot about the HVAC/dehumidifier. I've had a dehumidifier in my basement (because my wife insisted in drying linen and babies clothes down there before we got a tumble dryer). It costed me a fortune in electricity and to be honest I didn't find it to be doing it's job very well.

If your plan is to have electrical heating and a dehumidifier. I would not hesitate to recommend a good split unit air to air HVAC instead. This will keep your shop warm and dry without ruining you.

I don't know how well your shop is insulated...old garages typically aren't well insulated. You should consider to insulate your shop properly with the correct membranes. It'll help you to maintain a dry and warm shop and prevent your tools to get rusty.

 

[Tinker]

I don't know how it is in Norway and Denmark.  Around here, electric is the most expensive way to heat if you don't have good insulation.  Good insulation is the starting point for any heated space.
Tinker

 

[hrrb]

I don't know how it is in Norway and Denmark.  Around here, electric is the most expensive way to heat if you don't have good insulation.  Good insulation is the starting point for any heated space.
Tinker

Yes! Electric heating is the most expensive kind of heating in Denmark too...and I  believe it's also quite expensive in Norway.  [unsure]
So suggesting an air to air HVAC (or is it called a heat pump?) demands that Sjur finds a model with a good COP.
Here in Copenhagen where I live we have district heating (if its called that!?). This is one of the cheapest kinds of heating...and our house is fortunately connected to the district heating.

I agree with you...good insulation is the starting point  [smile]

Kind regards
Henrik

 

[Sjur]

The height in my shop differs from 215-222 cm in the garage. It jumped all around, so there's not an actual pitch, sadly. The garage floor is painted with some clear-coat type of finnish, so that the concrete won't start "dissolving" into dust. Not sure if that coat prevents humidity passes trough. [unsure] Perhaps I should check the humidity in the floors aswell.

I have given thought about making a wooden floor, as I like the cosy look it has. [tongue] However, I let go of that thought, as it costs money, I already have too much to work on, and more importantly - the height of the garage is small enough as it is.

The garage isn't insulated, as it was intended for cars. Garages shouldn't be insulated if they are used for actual cars, as that makes them rust. I have considered making a wooden, insulated wall on the long wall where the kapex and bandsaw will now be positioned. This is also the most humid wall, as water seeps down from the patio above, so a vapor barrier might help a lot.

I don't know how it is in Norway and Denmark.  Around here, electric is the most expensive way to heat if you don't have good insulation.  Good insulation is the starting point for any heated space.

Norway has a lot of mountains, so we get a lot of electricity from water power. We also have windpower. Denmark is really flat, so doesn't produce electricity from water, but in turn has a LOT of windpower. 38-50% of the energy-consumption in Norway is electricity. In comparion, USA is only at 13%, and denmark is at 15%.

We pay roughly 0.35NOK per kwh, which is 0.055USD. I guess that's expensive, but so is everything else. Personally, in my house, we use 2 HVAC units, 2 fireplaces, and some electrical ovens in the smaller rooms that usually stay closed.

The blue graph is electricity, the orange one is wood and coal, and the green one is oil and propane.

I've taken sources from recognized norwegian sources (SSB.no - everything statistical, published by the government, and SNL.no - the site thats most well known norwegian site for "quality", as it's written by proffesors, etc.)

 

[hrrb]

...as water seeps down from the patio above, so a vapor barrier might help a lot.

... I guess that's expensive, but so is everything else.

I'm a bit concerned about the water seeping through the ceiling from a patio! I thought your mom's apartment was above the garage!? I'd definitely find and fix the holes and cracks to avoid water from above. I know how cold it can get in Norway during the winter and water inside a concrete deck will freeze, expand and destroy the concrete over time. It will only get worse. [sad]

And I'm a bit concerned if you want to store your tools in an uninsulated and unheated shop with high humidity and only turn on the heating when you go to the shop. My dad did that and all his tools and machines went quite rusty. The damp air will condense on your tools due to climate and temperature variations and make your tools rust. I've promised myself always to keep my tools in a dry and heated shop. But maybe the humidity in the air is lower in Norway than in Denmark so there's no problems (?)

If 0,35 NOK is the total price per kWh including VAT and other expenses and fees I'd call it cheap. You can roughly multiply by 5 to get the danish price! But okay...vegetables and beer is cheaper in Denmark. I went to Bergen a couple of months ago and almost had a heart attack when I went to a restaurant and bought a beer. Eek!  [eek]

Henrik

 

[Sjur]

Oh, sorry, that wasn't what I meant to write. The garage is partly covered by my mother's apartment. However, the majority of the garage is covered by the patio.

It definetly gets cold in Norway, but water freezing in concrete isn't a concern at all. Concrete is a porous material, so if something freezes, it won't affect the concrete, as the water freezes in those pores. What makes concrete expand is if the rebar rusts. This won't happen here either, though.

I have been sceptical to the heating-method mentioned, but I figured if I ran a dehumidifier the same time as a heater, it would cancel eachother out. I have no knowledge of the humidity in air in Norway vs. Denmark. I guess it depends how close to the ocean you live. I live about 20minutes away. Having my garage dry and heated is of course preferable, but in the end, it all comes down to expenses.

Wow, I didn't know the electricity was that expensive in Denmark! The price definetly varies during the year (because we mainly rely on dams), but generally it's around that price. The subscription model varies, but we generally pay around 0,32NOK +30NOK/month.

Sjur