PoWeR

[jmbfestool]

As some of you already know from the other topic I am having problems getting 3phase.

In the mean time I am looking for alternatives!  

So if I cant connect to the low voltage 3phase!  

I need another supply!  

Now thought about just using the single phase and get some inverters one for the CNC and get another one for the rest of the workshop!   I was looking at rotary and digital inverters.  

With a lot of research I am leaning towards digital inverters!   I was told my CNC will run on either perfectly fine.

Thing is the electric company told me I might be demanding to much from the single phase from the main house onto this new build and he asked before I go down that route I should give him specs of the machines to see if the 15kw single phase can handle it all.  

I did think okay ill get another Single phase just for the new build but AGAIN that requires access to the farmers field to tap of the 3 phase.    

I think its a joke the electric company didnt have some sort of contract to say they have right to access the 3phase when needed.

OTher options is large 3phase generator!    At first I completely dismissed the idea!  BUT doing more research im starting to think it might be a better option!  

because:

3phase would cost me £4000  if I was able to connect into the field but I can't  [mad]  so second route if I can connect into the Lane instead which is 100metres further away it adds £5300 to the bill  adding total of £9300 to connect 3phase.

Now been looking I can get a Digital inverter for £1000 and a generator for £6000  total saving of £2000+  

My only cost would be then Red Diesel!    

Now I have being reading up about 3phase electricity costs which is higher than single phase and with 3phase you have a standing charge.  

So I think the Red Diesel could end up being equal to the my electricity bill any way.

Now...........  

Here is where I need help!!       Seen as I am running the 3phase Generator I was thinking I could have it charging batteries to run the upstairs part of the building!

So during the day the batteries are being charged and things like hob, cooker, TV, lights will run of the generator  but at night the generator will be switched off!   but instead of  switching the switch to single phase for night time! I could carry on using the electricity the generator generated but stored in batteries.    

This would make the generator more appealing to me and would save me money!  

Another benefit to the generator!  IF IF I was apple to tap into 3phase costing me £9000+   thats £9000+ GONE!  If I was to move workshop in the future I cant take the 3phase with me!  I can take a generator with me!!

So  can any one helpe me with ideas on best way to tackle this?!  

ill appreciate help like!  Whats the best inverter to use or generator, batteries!  OR  something like going down a completely different route I haven't thought off.  

 

[farms100]

My folks had a building that ran off a generator for years.  Its very hard  on furnaces, appliances, electronics etc, purchase  good power filters Id be really worried about  CNC machine.

Noise is a massive factor for me. If I'm on jobsite hearing a generator go all day long always makes me much more tired than a normal day.

Cost of maintenance of the generator. inconvenient breakdowns could play merry hell with a deadline.

installation cost of the switching equipment if you are going to run things with a generator or the grid.

no guarantee that if you move the shop the generator can be used at the new location.

 

[jmbfestool]

My folks had a building that ran off a generator for years.  Its very hard  on furnaces, appliances, electronics etc, purchase  good power filters Id be really worried about  CNC machine.

Noise is a massive factor for me. If I'm on jobsite hearing a generator go all day long always makes me much more tired than a normal day.

Cost of maintenance of the generator. inconvenient breakdowns could play merry heck with a deadline.

installation cost of the switching equipment if you are going to run things with a generator or the grid.

no guarantee that if you move the shop the generator can be used at the new location.

ummm not really thought about maintenance cost on the generator assumed it would just be things like oil change etc so nothing to expensive.

About it being harsh on appliances and CNC I was thinking of sticking an inverter in-between what ever is needed to keep the electricity running fine.

My idea was run the CNC on the single phase using inverter  then the generator would power the rest of the machines like thickener band saw lights etc.

Then while the generator was running it could charge a batterie bank to power the lights etc upstairs and the appliances so the generator would never directly power upstairs.  

noise wouldnt be a problem I would be building a shed round the back of the building  which would be sound proofed to contain the noise.

JMB

 

[Rick Christopherson]

In each of the options you're considering, you've mentioned converting the whole building to 3-phase. You don't need to do that when only the CNC requires 3-phase power. Even if you got a new 3-phase connection from the utility company, all of the circuits would still be single phase, but the main power panel would be 3-phase, and a few circuits into the shop would be 3-phase.

You indicated that you already have 15kw of power available. (For the U.S. members, this is equivalent to a 60 amp service.) That should be sufficient for a small shop like this. Although if you have electric heat or AC, then it could be a little tight. It doesn't matter how many tools you have, but how many of them would be running at the same time.

Oooohh. It took a while, but I finally came across your picture of the CNC. That's pretty large, and it could exceed your available power. You'll have to read the name plate(s) on it or the motors and find out how much power it consumes. Just for reference, 15kw is comparable to 20 horsepower, if that is how the motors are rated.

The CNC itself probably doesn't take a lot of power. It is that large blower motor that will consume the most. It looks like it could be in the 10 horsepower (8kw) range.

If the CNC doesn't take as much power as it appears to need, then the inverter off single-phase would be the most economical choice. It is the most efficient manner for getting 3-phase power from single-phase.

However, if the CNC requires anything close to your 15kw limit, then you will have no choice but to use a generator. However, for a generator that large, there is no need to run its power through an inverter. Just feed it directly into the CNC. That's the lower end of a commercial sized generator, so it will provide cleaner power to the CNC than an inverter will do.

Running a generator is a lot more expensive than utility power. So you only want to run it when you absolutely need the 3-phase power, and you don't want to feed anything else from it that could otherwise be run from utility power.

 

[mattfc]

Remind me again what the farms issue is.. also where does the existing supply run, and have you had your lease/freehold checked for an forms of easement over neighboring land?

Decent generators often have multiple outputs anyway, so can have one generator providing 110, 240v and 3 phase 415v

If your house above is designed efficiently with LED lighting etc, would be much easier to run it off single phase existing supply. Battery cost a fortune, would take up loads of space and need to be maintained

If possible I would really try and work with the farmer.. am surprised he is that resistant, if you offered me a grand and offered to make good what you take up I would let you run it through my garden!

 

[Kev]

Charging batteries won't be cheap either - an appropriate array of batteries will be expensive ... if you were going to do that in Oz I'd tell you to stick a large solar array up and use the sun.

Check to see if getting some of the work done by an electrical contractor of your own choice is possible and if it makes things cheaper. A generator is going to have a lot of ongoing costs. Not just money - space, noise, time - factor those over a few years.

 

[Rick Christopherson]

Thing is the electric company told me I might be demanding to much from the single phase from the main house onto this new build and he asked before I go down that route I should give him specs of the machines to see if the 15kw single phase can handle it all.  

I didn't notice this before, but I had been wondering where the 15kw was coming from. Without seeing this before, I could only assume that it was a direct line from the utility and couldn't be upgraded.

Now that I see it is coming from your main house, it may be possible to increase this size for a lot less money than a generator would cost. Find out how large the service is in your house. Look for the main circuit breaker and tell me how many amps it carries. If your main circuit breaker is only 100 amps, then you may be limited to this 60 amp feed to the shop. However, if it is larger, then you may have enough leeway to increase the size of the feed to the shop.

 

[mattfc]

Thing is the electric company told me I might be demanding to much from the single phase from the main house onto this new build and he asked before I go down that route I should give him specs of the machines to see if the 15kw single phase can handle it all.  

I didn't notice this before, but I had been wondering where the 15kw was coming from. Without seeing this before, I could only assume that it was a direct line from the utility and couldn't be upgraded.

Now that I see it is coming from your main house, it may be possible to increase this size for a lot less money than a generator would cost. Find out how large the service is in your house. Look for the main circuit breaker and tell me how many amps it carries. If your main circuit breaker is only 100 amps, then you may be limited to this 60 amp feed to the shop. However, if it is larger, then you may have enough leeway to increase the size of the feed to the shop.

I think 100a is the standard domestic supply in the UK

 

[jmbfestool]

In each of the options you're considering, you've mentioned converting the whole building to 3-phase. You don't need to do that when only the CNC requires 3-phase power. Even if you got a new 3-phase connection from the utility company, all of the circuits would still be single phase, but the main power panel would be 3-phase, and a few circuits into the shop would be 3-phase.

You indicated that you already have 15kw of power available. (For the U.S. members, this is equivalent to a 60 amp service.) That should be sufficient for a small shop like this. Although if you have electric heat or AC, then it could be a little tight. It doesn't matter how many tools you have, but how many of them would be running at the same time.

Oooohh. It took a while, but I finally came across your picture of the CNC. That's pretty large, and it could exceed your available power. You'll have to read the name plate(s) on it or the motors and find out how much power it consumes. Just for reference, 15kw is comparable to 20 horsepower, if that is how the motors are rated.

The CNC itself probably doesn't take a lot of power. It is that large blower motor that will consume the most. It looks like it could be in the 10 horsepower (8kw) range.

If the CNC doesn't take as much power as it appears to need, then the inverter off single-phase would be the most economical choice. It is the most efficient manner for getting 3-phase power from single-phase.

However, if the CNC requires anything close to your 15kw limit, then you will have no choice but to use a generator. However, for a generator that large, there is no need to run its power through an inverter. Just feed it directly into the CNC. That's the lower end of a commercial sized generator, so it will provide cleaner power to the CNC than an inverter will do.

Running a generator is a lot more expensive than utility power. So you only want to run it when you absolutely need the 3-phase power, and you don't want to feed anything else from it that could otherwise be run from utility power.

Ill go have a look now and see what the Cnc and vacuum power ratings are.

About the work shop to help get a picture on what I was planning on doing.

I was hoping to have the Cnc running as many hours as possible while I was doing other things in the workshop.  I was thinking having a helper to do the easy jobs like loading up the Cnc etc so I can keep it running.

I would be using thicknesser planners bandsaws etc while the Cnc was running.  I would sometimes have a joiner mate helping me in the workshop so I could end up with 2 or 3 machines running plus the Cnc/vacuum.

So total of 5 Machines could be running.  

All machines to be 3phase that was the plan!

The single phase 15kw supply powers my parents house and then would split of to the new build I can't get another single phase as again requires acces to farmers field.   So I was hoping the upstairs part of the property wouldn't consume alot of power saying that it will have underfloor heating but will be using led lights etc.

I was hoping an inverter just for the Cnc because that would be running most hours.    The generator would be just for the rest of the 3phase machines  so some days I might not even turn the generator on.   Cus I might just be using my festool tools sanders routers etc.

 

[Rick Christopherson]

By the way, I was also thinking about the farmer. Does he understand what "digging" actually means in terms of how little it upsets his land? He might be thinking that "digging" involves a very large trench across his property. Depending on what equipment they use, it will be very small, or even none at all.

If they use a trenching digger, it will still only be a 3 or 4 inch wide trench. However, if they use a ripping blade, then all it does is make a slice through the dirt, and and the ripping blade lays the cable as it slices. You literally just step the dirt/grass back down with your feet behind the trencher. Within a matter of days, you can't even tell the ground has been upset.

 

[jmbfestool]

Remind me again what the farms issue is.. also where does the existing supply run, and have you had your lease/freehold checked for an forms of easement over neighboring land?

Decent generators often have multiple outputs anyway, so can have one generator providing 110, 240v and 3 phase 415v

If your house above is designed efficiently with LED lighting etc, would be much easier to run it off single phase existing supply. Battery cost a fortune, would take up loads of space and need to be maintained

If possible I would really try and work with the farmer.. am surprised he is that resistant, if you offered me a grand and offered to make good what you take up I would let you run it through my garden!

It's not a he its a she!  He said yes his mum says no.   I thought it was him saying no but found out it was her.

We offered money and assured that everything would be put back.     The cable runs parrarel with the lane.  It's about 2metres into the field.    The field is used for cows grazing it looks like a mud field  and a 2metre 300mm wide trench would go unnoticed.  The farmers hedge is patched up with pallets and scrap bits of wood.    So if anything it would look better after we repaired everything.

 

[Rick Christopherson]

   The field is used for cows grazing it looks like a mud field  and a 2metre 300mm wide trench would go unnoticed.  The farmers hedge is patched up with pallets and scrap bits of wood.    So if anything it would look better after we repaired everything.

Why would they trench 300mm wide just for service conductors? For standard trenching, the machine shown below is all that is needed.

If it is being dug by the utility company, they might even use a ripping blade, which is what you see on the right hand side of this picture. (This is a combination machine that has a trencher on one end and a ripping blade on the other.) The ripping blade is a vibratory knife that just slices the dirt and pulls the wire through the slice down at the tip of the blade.

 

[Deansocial]

Rick, they gotta connect the cable too, which requires room to work and the connection box will be 125mm wide or so.

 

[jonny round boy]

It's not a he its a she!  He said yes his mum says no.   I thought it was him saying no but found out it was her.

We offered money and assured that everything would be put back.     The cable runs parrarel with the lane.  It's about 2metres into the field.    The field is used for cows grazing it looks like a mud field  and a 2metre 300mm wide trench would go unnoticed.  The farmers hedge is patched up with pallets and scrap bits of wood.    So if anything it would look better after we repaired everything.

You know what they say, jmb - easier to ask for forgiveness than permission!

Could you not sneak out there with a spade & run the cable in the night? They might never notice.... [tongue]

 

[jmbfestool]

Charging batteries won't be cheap either - an appropriate array of batteries will be expensive ... if you were going to do that in Oz I'd tell you to stick a large solar array up and use the sun.

Check to see if getting some of the work done by an electrical contractor of your own choice is possible and if it makes things cheaper. A generator is going to have a lot of ongoing costs. Not just money - space, noise, time - factor those over a few years.

Only reason I was thinking of charging batteries because I thought if the generator was running anyway I thought might aswell make use of the electricity  produced by the generator and store if for night time when the generator wasnt running.  For TV's Lights etc. 

Kinda like wa you do with solar power.   

 

[Kev]

Build them an electric fence ... live 415V should keep those cows in  [big grin]

 

[jmbfestool]

   The field is used for cows grazing it looks like a mud field  and a 2metre 300mm wide trench would go unnoticed.  The farmers hedge is patched up with pallets and scrap bits of wood.    So if anything it would look better after we repaired everything.

Why would they trench 300mm wide just for service conductors? For standard trenching, the machine shown below is all that is needed.

If it is being dug by the utility company, they might even use a ripping blade, which is what you see on the right hand side of this picture. (This is a combination machine that has a trencher on one end and a ripping blade on the other.) The ripping blade is a vibratory knife that just slices the dirt and pulls the wire through the slice down at the tip of the blade.

Well I didnt know how wide it would be I just said 300 cus I thought da would be at most.    I knew wa you was on about with the blades  like a massive chain saw.

JMB

 

[Deansocial]

Jmb, thats not how solar works.

 

[jmbfestool]

It's not a he its a she!  He said yes his mum says no.   I thought it was him saying no but found out it was her.

We offered money and assured that everything would be put back.     The cable runs parrarel with the lane.  It's about 2metres into the field.    The field is used for cows grazing it looks like a mud field  and a 2metre 300mm wide trench would go unnoticed.  The farmers hedge is patched up with pallets and scrap bits of wood.    So if anything it would look better after we repaired everything.

You know what they say, jmb - easier to ask for forgiveness than permission!

Could you not sneak out there with a spade & run the cable in the night? They might never notice.... [tongue]

No joke I could do da and they wouldnt notice!!!   but the thing is the electrical company will NOT connect up.   I did suggest that!!  I said wa if I just did it and then u connect up they said no lol  

 

[Rick Christopherson]

Wait. I thought the "2 meters" was a typo, and the length was actually 200 meters going across the land. I'm not sure about the law in the UK, but in the U.S. the utility company has what's called easement rights for this very reason. The homeowner cannot say "no". It is technically not their property to deny access to. You may want to look into that.

Geez, I thought this trench had to run all the way across her field or something. As a matter of fact, you might even discover that what you and she thinks is the property line is wrong. Around here, utility connections are placed on the property lines, not 2 meters inside of them. She may even owe you 2 meters of land, for all you know.