Preparing a finish with hand plane and RO150

[brandon.nickel]

Well, after months of deliberation, I decided to pick up a Lie-Nielsen #4 bench plane at Woodcraft's sale last weekend.  I was motivated by the scratches that my drum sander leaves on my panels when I thickness them.  I've been using my RO150 and going Rubin 80 - 120 - 150 - 180 and staining.  However, this process has left me finding swirl marks left by the sander that I couldn't see until I applied the stain (on cherry, btw).  I'm sure this indicates that I'm not spending enough time with the 120-180 grits.  However, I'm thinking that I can use the hand plane to get rid of the drum sander scratches.  So, should I follow the plane up with sanding?  If so, what grit to start?  I can't go any higher than 180 because the cherry starts to refuse the stain.

Any ideas? 

(Yeah, there's a hidden gloat in there.  My wife doesn't know about that purchase.  I'm still thinking I need the 3000mm rail before the end of hte month.  This is an expensive month for me.)

 

[Steven in Iowa]

You'll love the #4, I have quite a few LN's and love every one of them.  You may find that a card scraper accomplishes a glass smooth surface also.

 

[Michael Kellough]

Well, after months of deliberation, I decided to pick up a Lie-Nielsen #4 bench plane at Woodcraft's sale last weekend.  I was motivated by the scratches that my drum sander leaves on my panels

What grit was on the drum sander? Are the scratches really scratches or compressed grooves from compacted dust on the drums abrasive?

 

[brandon.nickel]

I've tried grits on the drum sander from 80 to 220.  Even at 220 the scratches are terrible.  So, I use 80 in order to speed the process up.  I have to sand it anyway.  I regularly open the drum sander and use a cleaning block on the surface.  It very rarely packs up with dust and these scratches are definitely from the abrasive.

 

[Scott W.]

I agree with Steven, a properly tuned card scraper will give you a glass smooth surface to finish.

Scott W.

 

[Dave Ronyak]

Brandon,

Join the club - buy the long rail (Like I recently did) before the price increase.

I have made a many projects from Pennsylvania and Ohio grown black cherry, some of which I have harvested myself.  I go straight to hand-held machine sanding from the jointer/planer and have never had a problem with the cherry accepting an oil-based stain, or seeing sanding scratches telegraphing through.  If I were you, I'd be concentrating on what the drum sander is doing, perhaps burnishing in those scratch marks.  If that is the case, I think you're going to have to remove enough surface material to get below that burnished layer.  A scraper or your plane may be the best way.  P.S.  I don't own any quality planes, and don't know how to use them effectively.

Dave R. 

 

[Fred West]

Brandon, I am the proud owner of many Lie-Nielsen planes as well as scrapers and chisels. The advice on the scrapers is dead on for the glass like surface. You will love the #4 and may also want to look at purchasing their Cabinet Maker's Scraper. I mean what the heck another $195 id hardly worth sneezing at this month. ;D 8) Fred

 

[Mark]

Can someone enlighten me on "why" scraping and planing result in such a better finish than sanding? I know sanding basically raises a fuzz on the surface of wood and planing shears the fibers off. I'm a beginner and don't have the skill yet to tune a plane, but I have also been studying Japanese carpentry and a lot of their work relies on planing resulting in the finish you see in temples etc. Probably a long long topic so a pointer to some book or Finewoodworking article would be great. Thanks.

 

[Eli]

You said it all right there. A scraper cuts.

 

[rwdawson]

Brandon,

Garrett Hack's, The Handplane Book, is an excellent reference.  It won't address your specific issues in the detail you might wish, but is a worthwhile read.

David Charlesworth has several DVDs that cover the use of planes and chisels.  In particular, you might find the following to be of help: Hand Plane Techniques Part I: Plane Sharpening, and Hand Plane Tool Techniques Part 2: Hand Planing.

Woodworking Magazine, edited by Christopher Schwarz, is worth a look.  Chris has  a blog,http://blog.lostartpress.com/default.aspx, which contains several entries relative to the issue of tear-out that are worth their weight in gold.

When the Woodworking show comes to town, hang around the Lie-Nielsen booth for a while.  Deneb Puchalski, who demonstrates their products, is a wealth of information and worth far more than the price of admission.

I hope this is a good start.  Google on any of the names I mentioned; there will be a lot more info, there is no telling where you will end up.

Festool and Lie-Nielsen represent the highest quality tools in their respective categories.  The No. 4 plane is a real treasure (as is the rest of L-N's offerings).  I'm sure that you will find woodworking more rewarding as you add both to your collection.

Richard

 

[Dan Clark]

I have a Lie-Nielson LA block plane and a Veritas apron block plane.  I think they are both very high quality, but I prefer the Veritas more.  Most importantly, I think Veritas is closer to the Festool paradigm. 

Lie-Nielson planes seem like extremely high quality versions of classic designs.  Veritas are very high quality UPDATED versions of classic designs.  I.e., like Festool, they take bit different approach to classic problems. 

Which is better?  Touch choice.  I slightly prefer Veritas.  Ask me again on a different day and I might choose Lie-Nielson.

Dan.

 

[Dan Clermont]

Can someone enlighten me on "why" scraping and planing result in such a better finish than sanding? I know sanding basically raises a fuzz on the surface of wood and planing shears the fibers off. I'm a beginner and don't have the skill yet to tune a plane, but I have also been studying Japanese carpentry and a lot of their work relies on planing resulting in the finish you see in temples etc. Probably a long long topic so a pointer to some book or Finewoodworking article would be great. Thanks.

Hi Mark,

A plane sheers the wood fibers and should leave a very smooth surface. Sanding clogs the pores in wood and obviously leaves scratches as minute as they may be depending on the grit you sand up to.

Keep in mind a plane will only cut as well as its operator can sharpen so their is a short learning curve to it if you use stones. Sharpening systems like the Tormek, WorkSharp and Veritas system can help you achieve a keen edge quickly and to be honest are not much more then the cost of a good quality 1000, 4000 and 8000 stones (I use stones cause that is what I was taught). A poorly sharpened iron will have tiny teeth and that is why a mirror polish on the cutting edge is important to sheer the wood fibres and open the pores to accept a finish deep into the wood.

You also need to keep in mind a plane can leave plane tracks if the blade is not cambered across the cutting edge so to be totally honest allot of hand tool guru's will lightly sand with a high grit like 320 or 400 or 600 just to give the surface a uniform surface finish and to remove plane tracks cause once the finish is applied their is no turning back and the plane tracks will show up :'(

With all that said I still love my Rotex.

Dan Clermont

 

[clintholeman]

I agree with Dan - a plane is a wonderful tool.  And it is no better than it's last sharpening.  A dull plane, like other edged tools, is a dangerous tool - not to say a real PITA to use.  A sharp one is an absolute delight.  And the finish is, well, it is really, really nice! [No argument about sanding vs. planing].

Cabinet scrappers are also great for that finish you can fall into.

And I still use and love my Rotex as well.  different paradigm.

 

[Zaphod]

FWW #180 compared sanding, scraping, and planing cherry and mahogony.  Differences were visible on unfinished wood; sanded boards were a little duller looking.  Boards were virtually indistinguishable once a finish was applied.  Conclusion of the article: use whichever technique you prefer.  My experience concurs.

Zaphod

 

[rwdawson]

We are straying a little off topic, which is fine.  It's all about woodworking and how you achieve a balance between methods of work.  I own the Rotex 150 and ETC 150/3 and wouldn't part with them for all the tea in China.  I also own an older PC belt sander, just in case I get into belt sander racing.

I have a lot of respect for Veritas, but own Lie-Nielsen planes. I don't own the No. 4, which started this thread, but think the world of my No. 4 1/2.

As stated, a properly sharpend and well tuned hand plane is a joy to use. So are the aforementioned sanders.  A real pleasure.

So, what's your pleasure?

Richard

 

[brandon.nickel]

Wow, I don't check in for a day and receive a wealth of knowledge.  Thanks for all the responses. 

I was hoping I could use the #4 for a while before it needed sharpening, but sadly that isn't the case.  While learning the technique on my MFT, I managed to nick the iron in a few places.  Not sure how.  The wood (3/4" cherry) was pushed against the MFT fence and I don't think I managed to hit the fence with either the sole or the iron.  In any case, it now leaves tracks, so I'm researching the best way to sharpen it (and my poorly neglected chisels).  I don't own any sharpening equipment other than a Lansky system for knives.  I've been reading through the Fine Woodworking archives and it looks like a dead heat between waterstones and the "Scary Sharp" method of wet/dry sandpaper on glass.  I'm leaning towards the waterstones and a Veritas Mk2 honing guide (I can't hold an edge at a consistent angle to save my life (see Lansky system above).  Has anyone compared these two?

The first marks I need to remove are linear from the drum sander.  The RO150 on rotary takes care of those, but I wonder if the very aggressive action is leaving the problem marks.  I doubt it because they are "pigtails" which I associate with the random orbit mode (Am I the only one that thinks of the RotEx sander as ROtary / EXcentric?)  I follow the 80 rotary up with 80 eccentric.  Then go up through the grits on eccentric.

I own a cabinet scraper, but it's not a fancy sole-supported version.  I don't have the thumb strength to smooth multiple large panels that way.  Besides, the marks left by the drum sander would take a year and a day to remove.  Next time I do so, I'll mike the panels before and after removing the marks so we'll know how deep those grooves are.  Maybe I should consider another LN tool (like my budget needs that).  I was planning to go with the #60 1/2 block plane next (for chamfers and end-grain trimming).

So, to truly make myself happy this month, it looks like:
3000mm Guide rail - $250
Waterstone Set ~$200
Veritas guide ~$60
LN #60.5 - $150
LN #85 Scraper - $195
=$855

Ouch.  And that doesn't even account for the Sortainer and Vlies I want.  Good thing I'm putting in 80 hour weeks for the next 2 months.  I'm going to need the overtime pay.  Now I just need to figure out how to hide it all from my wife...

 

[rwdawson]

Brandon,

One honing guide that you might consider is the Eclipse knock off.  Looks a little like Veritas, costs about $12 to $14 at Woodcraft.  Lie-Nielsen also carries it, if you want to see exactly what it looks like, check http://www.lie-nielsen.com/catalog.php?cat=517

A lot of the experts use and prefer it, plus, it's cheaper.

Richard

 

[rwdawson]

Brandon,

I forgot.  If you check out the Charlesworth sharpening DVD, he describes a kit that will set you back more like $100.  His claim, which Chris Schwarz and Deneb Puchalski support, is that you need only a 1000 grit and either a 6000 grit or 8000 grit stone.  I also, as they do, recommend a granite stone, available from Woodcraft for about $30.  Norton has a stone flattener for the same price that left me flat.  I wouldn't buy another one.

Schwarz's web site may have more on this.

BTW, most of what I appear to know about sharpening comes from the Charlesworth DVD and from watching Deneb in action.

Richard

 

[Dan Clark]

I have the Veritas MKII.  It works great except for narrow chisels.  They are tough to work with.

I have tried several types of waterstones including a Shapton 8000 grit ceramic stone (don't like it).  All stones get dish shaped pretty quickly, IMO. 

I'm now working with a combination of Scary Sharp + DMT Duosharp diamond stones:http://www.dmtsharp.com/products/duosharp.htm.  The jury is still out, but I think this is the right combo for me.  Duosharp for everything but the final honing.  Final honing is .3 micron 3M lapping film from Tools for Working Wood:http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/...hop&Product_Code=ST-MAF.XX&Category_Code=THS.  (The are also a Festool Dealer.)

Regards,

Dan.

 

[Steven in Iowa]

I have the Veritas MKII.  It works great except for narrow chisels.  They are tough to work with.

I have tried several types of waterstones including a Shapton 8000 grit ceramic stone (don't like it).   All stones get dish shaped pretty quickly, IMO.   

I'm now working with a combination of Scary Sharp + DMT Duosharp diamond stones:http://www.dmtsharp.com/products/duosharp.htm.   The jury is still out, but I think this is the right combo for me.   Duosharp for everything but the final honing.  Final honing is .3 micron 3M lapping film from Tools for Working Wood:http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/...hop&Product_Code=ST-MAF.XX&Category_Code=THS.  (The are also a Festool Dealer.)

Regards,

Dan.

Duosharp and lapping film from Tools for Woodworking is exactly how I do it after trying a gazillion other ways.