Prometheus Boom Arm from RTS Engineering Initial Impressions

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martin felder

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For years, I used the Festool boom arm connected to a CT-36, but found the limitation being that it swiveled at only one point, and only worked best over a narrow work area unless the vac was moved (to be in the way).  Since I was not needing portability, I wanted to find a boom arm that had a swivel point in the middle that could be mounted overhead.  I was aware of the massive ASA-5000 from Festool that is not easily obtained in the USA, but that was not practical for my shop.  On this Forum, I became aware of the Prometheus Boom arm sold by RTS Engineering. 

I looked for alternatives, and see that a lot of people have made their own swivel boom arms, but I did not find an example of one with a middle swivel point, which is what makes the "sweet spot" along the entire range extension.  The Prometheus appeared to be exactly what I was looking for.  I purchased a Promethius in the longer length,  and paid $1,599 (boom arm-shipping) by PayPal.  As it was being shipped, I took down my old boom arm for sale, re-organized the shop, and made a mounting bracket that would span 3 wall studs.  I wanted to be ready!

When it arrived, what I remember was that the box was not all that sturdy.  Normally, I use a box cutter along the length of the box, and open it.  This was different.  There was a lot of clear tape all around very thin cardboard with 2 loose pieces of strapping.  This box was best opened more in pieces with my hands and scissors.  In looking at a picture on another thread with this boom arm in the box (see picture) I guess it was not really put in a box, but a couple of thin cardboard boxes that were put together with overlap and held together with tape. Any impact would not have dented the ends much as there was not much distance between the box and the wrapped boom arm ends inside. I did not care.  I do not store boxes. 

The first step of installation is the mounting bracket.  The problem was that bronze bearings have to be inserted in the boom arm before the boom arm can be connected to the mounting bracket.  The bearing would not fit.  There was a slight dent.  That means it was either dented before or during shipment.  I was advised to try to hit it with a hammer to get it bent back.  That did not work.  I did not think it would, but I wanted to do what was recommended. I then got out my Dremel and with a rotary file, fixed the problem (see picture). 

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Once it was mounted and before I could use it, I noticed a major sag developed in the second section.  Major problem.  I looked more closely and saw a bent gear.  I sent pictures to RTS Engineering.  The following morning, I disassembled the 2 sections to take a much closer look and took and sent more pictures. 

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I saw several areas where paint was missing on the new boom arm.  However, when brushing against it as I went to unscrew something, I noticed the paint came off.  I went to check with my finger nail, and was able to remove paint by running my not so sharp thumbnail across.  I would have expected the paint to be more durable, and I do not really care too much about the paint since things should not be rubbing on it when eventually used, but I could not be sure then how much was damage and how much was from the paint not sticking well.

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I was trying to see what was contributing to the sag.  I checked my installation, and the mounting bracket was level as was the part of the boom arm that was attached.  However, at the other end of the first section, it was not level.  That could contribute to sag, but perhaps it was just a little off and of no real significance.  I would not have even checked if no major problem.  The major issue was not only a major bend in the gear, but the fact that the screw was loose as it was pulled out of the thread.  It could not be screwed back in.  It was blown out.

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When I contacted RTS Engineering, I was advised to use a hammer to try to flatten out the gear and I could get a replacement gear.  It was suggested I enlarge the hole in the gear and tap the bracket to accept a larger screw and get a replacement screw.  At this point, I decided that it would be best that I return it can get a replacement.    Maybe some of you would say I should have just tried to hammer and tap, but I do not work with metal, and if I was a bit off, I could see that interfering with the function.  I also thought, I paid $1,599, full price, for a new boom arm, and this was a bit much.  When I requested a replacement, that did not go over too well.

I was told that if I wanted to return the boom arm, I would have to file a damage claim with UPS because if the seller did it, that would be fraud since it was me, the buyer, that was able to assess the damage.  I looked on the UPS website, and it does say that the buyer or seller can file a claim, but they encourage the seller to submit the claim.  It is true that the buyer is always the one able to assess the damage best, but I would not think UPS would be recommending fraud on the website.  Anyhow, I filed the claim.  I was informed, in writing by the seller, that I would be responsible for return shipping cost as he would not cover shipping until we found out about the disposition of the UPS claim.  I asked the seller if he could ship a new one as the damaged one was being returned. I explained that unfortunately due to Covid-19, I was not able to work much, and it was the one time in 20 years I had a lot of time to work on my shop.  The shop was re-arranged, and things were taken down along the walls to prepare for boom arm and I really wanted to get certain things done without further delay.  I asked if he could please ship a replacement the next day, if I returned the damaged boom arm the same day.  I was told I needed to ship first.  No problem. That was on April 5.

The following morning, I contacted the UPS store so I could have them box and return the boom arm and I was planning to pay for that so it would ship.  They did not have a box long enough.  I went to home depot, got a sheet of 3/4 thick plywood and with plywood and screws, made a box.  I did not request reimbursement.  As I was about to take it to UPS after making the box, a UPS driver showed up unannounced to pick up the box!  Anyhow, sure.  I did not have to pay or take the box for shipment.  I took pictures of the box with the boom arm in it before and after it was screwed shut and a picture of it being loaded on the truck hoping then the replacement would be shipped. I sent tracking info and a picture of the label on the box. 

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However, I was then told by the seller that if he were to ship a new boom arm, maybe I would be sending a box of rocks-bricks, so no!  I really had no way to prove I did not swap boom arm for rocks between pictures before closing the lid.  I just requested that when he got it, confirmed it was a real boom arm as described, he would ship that one after repair, or preferably a replacement without delay.  I was hoping to use the free time to set it up.  I was assured it should be an easy fix for him where it could go out the day after he got it back.  I thought about the box of rocks-bricks issue, and offered to pay for a second boom arm by PayPal to avoid delay in sending a replacement. If indeed he were to then open the box and find bricks-rocks, he would have payment and a sale for 2 boom arms instead of one.  No reply. 

RTS Engineering received the boom arm back on April 13.  The shipping is to and from "Full Blown Motorsports" not RTS Engineering.  On April 14, I was told by the seller he was not notified of arrival until that evening.  I was assured by the seller he did not forsee any problem with it getting repaired that evening, and shipped back the following day, April 15. Great!  No problem!  On April 16, I was told that regretfully, it would not ship until the following morning (April 17).  I still did not get a tracking number.  When I inquired, the seller said he believed the shipment went out, but he did not get a tracking number from the shipping clerk.  A bit disappointing as I was hoping for a quick turnaround given the circumstances, and no dispute about my description of the problem.  I never did get a reply with a tracking number that day or the following day or the day after that.  Then, 2 days ago, Monday April 20, I was told the seller had a message in for the shipping clerk and I would get it when he responds.  Yesterday morning, April 21, I talked to the seller, who said it was a bit early in the day (after 9 AM) and he would get back to me.

That evening, after no reply or tracking number, I sent an email to the seller indicating that if I can't get confirmation that it went out Friday (so I could have it this weekend) I would be contacting PayPal and requesting a refund.  Enough.  Shortly after that, I received a tracking number.  It went out at 7:29PM April 21, and would arrive by the end of the day Monday April 27.

I think if it works and holds up, it will be a great boom arm. If I had to do it over again, I would have kept the boom arm I had.  However, it is on the way, and I invested a lot of time in this already.  I will post a followup after arrival once I can actually use it.

 

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Fascinating story, customer service needs some work [big grin].
Good job with the crate. Did you request to use it for return shipment?
Regardless of bent gear seems like a bit of slop in the joint. Picture 2, middle panel: the screw is skewed quite a bit.
 
Hi!

That is highly disappointing. Especially the "you could ship back a box full of rocks" comment.

Having virtually seen your shop, it kinda makes me laugh, that someone has the nerve of telling you, out of all people, you would maybe ship back rocks, to fraud someone out of a clearly defective product.

Sorry you have to go through this!

Please keep us posted. :)

Kind regards,
Oliver
 
How disappointing, from both the durability of the product and the way you were treated by the vendor.  If vendors are going to lie about shipping dates, what else will they lie about?
I was seriously considering buying one of these and had looked into shipping options after having it delivered to a friend in the States.  Now, I'll be content with the Festool boom arm as soon as I rearrange my shop.

 
Not sure what to say.  But you have a great deal more patience than I could ever muster, at being treated this way.  I sure hope it works out for you but I would be looking for a refund quickly.
 
What a horror story. Faulty product, and the seller simply recommends to bang it with a hammer? Just tap your own new threads? Simply amazing.

And then the "ship a box of rocks" comment. You just paid him $1599 and he's that at distrustful of you? Even more amazing.

But then,  knowing how Rick could be on this forum sometimes, I'm not that surprised in the end.

I hope this get's solved to your satisfaction very soon. Good luck.
 
Thank you for sharing your experience. The detailed write-up, which might have taken an hour(?) to complete, can only be explained by how frustrating the experience has been to you. Every vendor can be great when the ship sails smoothly. What sets one apart from the rest is when things go wrong. True character is often displayed during hardship. I need to find that mental list which I keep of vendors to avoid at all costs.

 
Alex said:
And then the "ship a box of rocks" comment. You just paid him $1599 and he's that at distrustful of you? Even more amazing.
I guess customer should pay for an order after it has been delivered. What if the seller shipped a box of rocks?
 
Svar said:
Alex said:
And then the "ship a box of rocks" comment. You just paid him $1599 and he's that at distrustful of you? Even more amazing.
I guess customer should pay for an order after it has been delivered. What if the seller shipped a box of rocks?

It's important to choose a payment method that covers sellers' fraud. PayPal is pretty good at that based on my experience. Credit cards vary, but my experience with American Express has been good too. That insulting remark would have me ban the vendor for life.
 
What the others here said, especially Alex.
In all of this you may even have been lucky. I hope you’ll get a refund of the return shipping costs. They should even have offered you a discount. Accidents during shipping happens. But, the way it was packed when received by you, is well, optimistically hoping for the best or total lack of knowledge in how to ship an item like yours.

I really like the way you made the ply box for return shipment, it’s a statement!
- You can bet that if you are not receiving the new or repaired one - in “your” box, another customer will  [huh]

Mend a $1599 boom arm with a hammer.. [blink]
Good luck upon receiving, hope you are in for a pleasant unboxing  [smile]
 
I hope you get get this worked out to your satisfaction.

Peter
 
RTS should offer a full refund and send you a brand new one too, no cost. How many people that read this thread will take a chance on that B.S. customer service? Never buying a thing from them after this story. Anybody need a remote control CT module from RTS....I was considering just tossing it in the trash...
 
Sorry to hear about all the trouble. I'm actually not at all surprised by the shipping and the after-service handling. Some people have the social skills of barbed wire. Others are even worse. I think it would have been epic if you tossed in a few big river rocks in the box, but then he'd use that as an excuse for why it was damaged.
 
I hope you’ll get a refund of the return shipping costs.

To clarify, I was told I would have to pay return shipping cost pending disposition of the UPS damage claim that I was required to file.  I was prepared to take it to UPS after buying and building and packaging the boom arm, and pay UPS for the return shipping.  However, when UPS picked it up, they did not charge me.  I guess when there is a damage claim, they pick it up, inspect, then return to shipper.  My only expense was the cost of the supplies at home depot.... the bubble wrap and the plywood, and mostly the time involved.

I really like the way you made the ply box for return shipment, it’s a statement!

Thank you.  If I was really trying to make a statement, I would have made it with solid maple and through dovetails haha. I just wanted it to be properly boxed, and would have been happy to have the UPS store do that.  Since the UPS store said it was a bit too long for their boxes, I had to make my own, and I think a wood box is the best way to ship something like this if the goal is to make the best effort to avoid damage.  The 3/4 thick plywood adds more shipping weight, but more sturdy and easier to assemble than thinner plywood.  I was able to make the box with 1 sheet.  I made the 3 sides with biscuit joints, glue, and countersunk screws, and used plywood on the ends, and then secured the top with screws.  No nails.

 
Well, good read and very disappointing. You are way more patient than I am. This was on my short list but has now been removed. I won't risk receiving this kind of treatment for $1500! I figure RTS just used up any good will they have acquired over the years on this forum. Thank you Martin for the detailed write up!! Keep us posted.

Jack Lemley
 
martin felder said:
The 3/4 thick plywood adds more shipping weight, but more sturdy and easier to assemble than thinner plywood.  I was able to make the box with 1 sheet.  I made the 3 sides with biscuit joints, glue, and countersunk screws, and used plywood on the ends, and then secured the top with screws.  No nails.

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  Using biscuits on a project!  Don't you know the Domino is the ONLY way to make anything on this forum!  I guess maybe if it was a Lamello biscuit joiner it might be tentatively OK.
 
Rick from RTS has been a member here for a long time and consulted the group during the design of this thing.  Seems like a good egg, so hopefully he'll drop by and offer a explanation about why packaging seems inadequate and the general lack of fit and finish.

[member=191]Rick Christopherson[/member]
 
Well, this hatchet job doesn't surprise me in the slightest. I was expecting it from 30 seconds into his phone call. We've all had that "customer from Hell", and Joel is that person in spades.

But before I get started, why don't you ask Joel why he deleted the Felder's Group posting that showed the fully installed and operational boom arm a week before he complained about alleged "shipping damage"?

Here's the thread, but Joel's postings and photograph have recently been deleted.
Felder Promethius {sic} posting

Call me naive, but what I wasn't expecting was for him to come out and bald face lie on a forum that I'm well known on.

So let's start with this alleged shipping damage. Joel took a photograph around March 30/31, and posted it to the Felder Owner's group. The boom arm was straight, and he made no mention of any crookedness in his posting. I viewed the picture several times, specifically looking for damage or crookedness (after he contacted me), but I didn't think ahead enough to save a copy of it.  [mad]

That picture was taken before he ran any wires/hoses through the boom arm. A few days later, he removed the boom arm from the wall so he could suck some string through the tubes to fish hoses/wires. It is after this that he suddenly claimed the boom arm was damaged before he received it.

Based on the location, direction, and magnitude of the damage to the coupling gear, I suspect that he dropped the boom arm while taking it down, or putting it back up. But frankly, that didn't matter, and I had no problem repairing the damage regardless how it happened.

But the biggest red flag with his story is that it couldn't have happened in the box without it being incredibly noticeable. In order for that coupling gear to be struck in the direction and force it had, the entire corner of the shipping box would have to have been caved in by 6 to 8 inches at 45 degrees.

And yet every time I asked him to describe the condition of the shipping box, he would evade the question and change the topic to something else. To this date, he still has not affirmed that the shipping box was damaged beyond scuffs or scratches. And that is the reason why I would not initiate a shipping claim against UPS. For me to attest that the box was damaged, when I couldn't even get my customer to acknowledge that fact, it would have forced me to commit fraud against UPS.

Hammering the Gear:
This little lie really pisses me off. Do you want to know why that topic was brought up? It's because Joel was in such a hurry to use his boom arm, that I came up with an emergency plan to get it working for the weekend until it could be properly repaired (if he chose to do so!!).

But did Joel tell you that it was an emergency "option" I came up with (and wrote instructions for) for his benefit, not mine? Of course not, because he's dishonest about this whole situation, and even tried to cajole me into committing fraud for him.

 
Please take this issue private between parties.  This isn't the venue to handle these type of customer satisfaction issues or disputes.

In advance, your participation in my request is greatly appreciated.

Peter Halle - Moderator
 
I think it is nice that the readers get to hear input and hope the conversation will remain civll so the thread does not get locked.  It would be especially helpful if there was any feedback from anyone who owns a Prometheus and has used it some time.  I would be most interested to know about the durability.

I was indirectly asked why I deleted a photo on the Felder forum.  To clarify, I did post a thread on the Felder forum.  It was an FYI about the product.  When I started to have difficulties, I deleted my post which deleted the picture.  I did not want to appear to be supporting the product at that point.  However, to be sure, I totally agree that the boom arm was straight in that picture.  I am posting the photo here.  Nothing to hide. 

To provide some additional feedback, I do agree that adding string in the bottom tubes before installation is a good thing because that facilitates passing the power cords later (I never made it that far).  If you look at the pictures, you will see the string.  It was placed before mounting the boom arm.  That was good advice and I took it.  There was no need to remove the boom arm (and risk dropping it to add string) because the string was run before it was mounted. In fact you see string in the picture with the file.  Of course that was not taken after the boom arm was mounted and then removed (or dropped) to add string because you can't mount the boom arm when there is a dent that prevents the swivel rod to be inserted to to attach the boom arm to the mounting bracket.

Since it would not be possible for anyone to go to mount (and then drop) the boom arm to cause damage when there is a dent preventing the rod from going through, that means there was damage before it could be mounted, enough to bend the metal so the bronze bearing would not fit.  That is why I used the dremel.  The hammer did not work, the file was taking too long.  The dremel too care of it nicely!

In other words, there was damage before it would have been possible to mount the boom arm. As I said in my original post, after I mounted it (after fixing the damage that was noted before it could be mounted), with the string in place, I noted that a sag developed (with it being extended in the middle section, prior to any feeding of the cords or use).

I hope that provides some clarification of a few issues that were raised.

 

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