Protool to be absorbed by Festool?

[Deansocial]

They could call the lot carp tool for all i care, if its good i buy it if not i dont. Im not a brand whore

 

[Administrator_JSVN]

Well, since this is in the Ask Festool secton, let me reply. Sorry for not replying sooner, I guess it got moved to the Ask Festool section or I missed it.

I don't know of any official announcement of a merger, or whatever you want to call it.

I've not added a long list of Protool badged products to the list of ETA for NA thread.  [wink]

Since it was asked or talked about... Festool and Protool are sister companies, two of the dozens of companies owned by TTS, or Tooltechnic Systems. Protool focuses on rough construction tools while Festool focuses on fine woodworking and finish carpentry type tools. Many of the internal resources are shared between the two subsidiaries.

Have fun speculating.  [smile]

Shane

 

[adubeau]

I see very little overlap in the Protool / Festool product ranges ... small circular saw, jigsaw, the odd cordless drill and the vac's ... but the majority of the stuff is uniquely Protool.

All of the concrete grinding / renovating stuff and the angle grinders are quite nice - but I don't believe there's the same margin of differentiation between Protool and "other" v's Festool and "other", so the move could be a branding error in some ways. Let's face it, the guy that grinds a concrete floor flat after removing your tiles doesn't have the same fastidious aura as the guy painstakingly cutting dovetails for you cabinet drawers!

I also believe Protool is made by a lower cost labour force (still European though).

I've seen a lot of very large companies screw up their brand image trying to weave it into a cost saving corporate strategy - it can be quite dumb!

Would as many people buy an Aston Martin Vanquish if it was called a Ford Vanquish? I know I'm talking in a different league - just making the point! A rebadged Focus with Aston Martin would sell for a little while, but ultimately it would damage the brand and the flagship product would suffer image degradation. It's a different scale, but this sort of thing needs to be considered.

Rather that merge the product lines, it would probably be better to leverage Festool but sub brad the range (maybe Festool Industrial - in a way that sets product expectation ... a Protool/Festool angle grinder isn't going to revolutionise your work).

Honestly I don't know this stuff all that well - but I do hear alarm bells [eek] and would like to know the underlying strategy.

I am 100% with you on this one. Totally agree. My preference is to keep these two delineated. No line extension.

Festool is Festool, Protool is Protool, or like you said Festool industrial could create the right image. I think these tools appeal to very different audiences so you can't just slap Festool labels on Pro Tools and call it a day, it's not that simple.

Not to mention possible damage to the Festool brand...  If there is any truth to this I am sure the marketing types will come up with something...
Maybe a competion on FOG for a new tool brand? Bestool..? HA

 

[Rick Christopherson]

From the very beginning I had always felt this was an unfounded rumor for various reasons. Even in the "wishful thinking department" there are some logic flaws.

First off, consider how closely guarded secrets are within the organization, even for just a new product, let alone a major change such as this. A sales rep would not know about an organizational change such as this until it was already being implemented.

Then there is the wishful thinking:
If Protool is not available in the US or other countries, why would a name change be required to change that? It is the same infrastructure. If TTS wanted the product in a specific location, they would bring it there regardless what the sticker was on the side of the tool. Trademarks are not strong enough to prevent a product from being sold if the desire is there to do so. For example, simply prefixing the name with TTS-Protool would be sufficient.

If Protool is available in only 240 volts, why would a name change be required to change that? Or conversely, just because it gets a name change, why would it force other changes to go with it?

If Festool wanted any of the products branded under Protool to be available under Festool, they would have or could have already done that years ago. It wouldn't require a name merger to accomplish that.

Even though there could be legitimate business reasons for wanting a name-merger, none of them have been touched on in this discussion.

 

[Frank Pellow]

Rick, I think that there is a reason as far as North America is concerned.  The Protool brand is only known here by folks like you and me and we don't count.  Ten years ago the Festool brand was only known here by folks like you and me but that is changing.  Now lots of people have heard of Festool and they know that their tools are right up there with the best.  If they want to sell Protool stuff here, the Festool rand would help.

Support for only 240 volt tools would be a problem.  Again, I have 240 volt capability both in my woodworking shop and on site (with a generator), but I am not the normal customer.

 

[Rick Christopherson]

Rick, I think that there is a reason as far as North America is concerned.  The Protool brand is only known here by folks like you and me and we don't count.  Ten years ago the Festool brand was only known here by folks like you and me but that is changing.  Now lots of people have heard of Festool and they know that their tools are right up there with the best.  If they want to sell Protool stuff here, the Festool rand would help.

Yes, but that could be accomplished with a simple 10-cent sticker change without significant corporate reorganization. Simply putting a green Festool logo near the orange Protool logo would be sufficient. However, when it comes to bringing any of the tools over to the US market, the hurdle isn't so much the name, as it is the cost for UL listing. That would remain the same regardless what color they were or what name they carried.

Support for only 240 volt tools would be a problem.  Again, I have 240 volt capability both in my woodworking shop and on site (with a generator), but I am not the normal customer.

The same argument applies. You don't have to change the color or name to change the voltage. It's just a motor change, and that would be the same regardless what color or brand the tool was listed under.

I'm not saying something like this couldn't happen. I'm just saying that the reasons given in this discussion are not sufficient for making a corporate reorganization to accomplish them.

 

[skids]

Rick, I think that there is a reason as far as North America is concerned.  The Protool brand is only known here by folks like you and me and we don't count.  Ten years ago the Festool brand was only known here by folks like you and me but that is changing.  Now lots of people have heard of Festool and they know that their tools are right up there with the best.  If they want to sell Protool stuff here, the Festool rand would help.

Support for only 240 volt tools would be a problem.  Again, I have 240 volt capability both in my woodworking shop and on site (with a generator), but I am not the normal customer.

I had never heard of Protool until I bought Festool and joined this forum. It was really the forum that introduced me to Pro tool. I should mention I have been buying tools for 20 some-odd years now and tend to shop for quality stuff. Still never ran across it.

If any of this rumor were true, it made more sense forTTC to introduce Festool to this market than Protool since there are so many competitors in Protools' market. But Festool really stands on it's own here in the US, there isn't anything like it anywhere here.

 

[jmbfestool]

From the very beginning I had always felt this was an unfounded rumor for various reasons. Even in the "wishful thinking department" there are some logic flaws.

First off, consider how closely guarded secrets are within the organization, even for just a new product, let alone a major change such as this. A sales rep would not know about an organizational change such as this until it was already being implemented.

Then there is the wishful thinking:
If Protool is not available in the US or other countries, why would a name change be required to change that? It is the same infrastructure. If TTS wanted the product in a specific location, they would bring it there regardless what the sticker was on the side of the tool. Trademarks are not strong enough to prevent a product from being sold if the desire is there to do so. For example, simply prefixing the name with TTS-Protool would be sufficient.

If Protool is available in only 240 volts, why would a name change be required to change that? Or conversely, just because it gets a name change, why would it force other changes to go with it?

If Festool wanted any of the products branded under Protool to be available under Festool, they would have or could have already done that years ago. It wouldn't require a name merger to accomplish that.

Even though there could be legitimate business reasons for wanting a name-merger, none of them have been touched on in this discussion.

Reason 240v was mentioned by Dean was only because IF the reason of the name change was to introduce protools in the USA they would have to be changed to 110v  which would make Dean happy because he wants protool but he needs them in 110v .  He never said that the name change its self would introduce 110v tools like you are trying to suggest.

Jmb

 

[WarnerConstCo.]

You guys get carried away, way to easily.

You can already get your hands on some of the protool stuff anyways.

Like a giant beauty shop in here.

 

[jmbfestool]

You guys get carried away, way to easily.

You can already get your hands on some of the protool stuff anyways.

Like a giant beauty shop in here.

It's a USA thing

 

[peter halle]

Like a giant beauty shop in here.

How convenient.  I need to have my roots touched up.  [big grin]

 

[johninthecamper]

now this thread is going to die,I will admit to checking it

 

[ccarrolladams]

In the USA there is a long established corporation which has used the ProTools trademark for almost 100 years. I strongly suspect that over the years TTS has researched ways around that trademark and felt the legal battle was not worth the expense.

While on trips to Europe I have used a few of the Protools which have use in cabinet making. They are excellent, but all of those are so similar to brands already sold in the USA that TTS probably does not want to spend the money to make 110v versions and then get UL approval. Some of the other Protools I have only seen in European stores and read about have no chance of UL approval, especially the chain saw.

Over the years it appears that TTS does not import to North America any of their products in the face of successful existing brands.

So, I personally am not holding my breath waiting for TTS to bring Protools to the USA with or without a color and label change.

 

[Rick Christopherson]

In the USA there is a long established corporation which has used the ProTools trademark for almost 100 years. I strongly suspect that over the years TTS has researched ways around that trademark and felt the legal battle was not worth the expense.

That would be worth considering, if it wasn't for the fact that TTS Tooltechnic Systems AG & Co. KG LIMITED PARTNERSHIP FED REP GERMANY Wertstrasse 20 73240 Wendlingen FED REP GERMANY actually already owns the trademark in the U.S. in the first place! (copy/pasted from the Trademark registration page).

You can read the actual trademark registration (Reg. No. 3740161) here: (If the link doesn't work, just go to the TESS website and search for "Protool", or the registration number 3740161.)
http://tess2.uspto.gov/bin/showfield?f=doc&state=4001:tzktur.2.4

When you already own a "live" trademark, there is nothing to defend. The Trademark is "Live" in the U.S. and already registered to TTS for the past 5 years (applied 2008, approved in 2010). EDITED to ADD: It has actually been owned for at least 14 years.

 

[Alan m]

surly going to another country and getting and keeping a trademark that another company is using  is a sign of their intent .

 

[Rick Christopherson]

surly going to another country and getting and keeping a trademark that another company is using  is a sign of their intent .

Yes, that too would be worth considering, except the original trademark (now dead) was previously filed in 1999. A secondary one succeeded it in 2001, and which is also still "Live". The filings have been occurring for well over a decade. It is standard business practice for international corporations.

Nevertheless, the point made was that TTS already owns the name and mark here in the U.S..

As I said above, I have no idea whether this rumor has any truth or not, but the reasons given behind the speculation are not based on any business logic. That is all I am saying.

 

[ccarrolladams]

Well, eventually we will see what TTS does with the Protools trade mark they registered in the USA.

Just remember, trademark law is one of the most complicated in the Intellectual Property legal specialty. Often patents are issued than later invalidated when the product approaches the market. The same is true of trademarks. But it is also possible the maker of socket wrenches and other hand tools is out of business, except for holding the trademark. TTS might have bought that. Otherwise, several IP attorneys will make some money.

So to take the NA market by storm, all TTS needs to do is re-design popular Protools for 110v and get UL approval. The first step would be the battery-powered drills, drivers and hammers. The batteries interchange with Festools for which 110v chargers are already approved.

Is the NA market for corded drills, drivers and hammers under-served? TTS must be doing market research about this as we speculate. For example, all the drywall contractors I know here already have self-feeding screw guns which they use when appropriate. I'm not aware of new drywall contractors entering the business. Some are going back into that business, using equipment they have been storing for a few years.

 

[AlexThePalex]

What strange things some people have to say about Protool. Like, Protool bringing Festool quality down? Seriously? What stuff are you guys on?

Protool is a very expensive brand and it's all top of the line, as in "It's almost impossible to find better". As for exclusivity, it's a lot more exclusive than Festool. I can buy Festool at 50 shops in close proximity. I can buy Protool at perhaps 2 or 3. Nobody knows the brand. Nobody has it. It's ultra rare.

I also don't understand why site oriented tools would bring down a line of tools aimed at carpenters. Do carpenters feel that hoity-toity about themselves?

 

[peter halle]

I still think that it will happen - eventually.  Regarding the quality of Protool I agree with Alex and those overseas who have seen and touched them and used them.  TTS wouldn't have bought the company that makes Protools years ago if they made junk.  Every one of the TTS companies is a maker of top quality products.

Many of the discussions here have been about the assumption that the NA market is the aim.  Maybe it's not the primary.  I don't see that Protool is in China based on the Protool website. 

Just speculating and adding my less than 1 cent worth.

Peter

 

[Rick Christopherson]

Well, eventually we will see what TTS does with the Protools trade mark they registered in the USA.

Just remember, trademark law is one of the most complicated in the Intellectual Property legal specialty. Often patents are issued than later invalidated when the product approaches the market. The same is true of trademarks.

You have the two forms of protection backward. A patent can be challenged for any one of its multiple "claims" (a patent term), but a Trademark is less likely to be challenged after it has been issued. The Trademark has successfully existed for 14 years without challenge, so challenging it today would be frivolous.

It is not complicated. To the contrary, it is very simple. The Trademark has been issued, and the onus would be on the challenger to defeat the Trademark. That review process expired before the Trademark was officially issued.

Challenging a live Trademark is virtually unheard of. The only time this happens is when a company fails to defend its Trademark. This is the reason why "Allen Wrench" is no longer a defendable Trademark, because it has become synonymous with all hex keys. Google risks this forfeiture if they do not defend their name in common lexicon.

The ProTool trademark has been registered for over 14 years, and it has been kept up to date. This is not the reason for speculating about this topic.