Question regarding Festool limitatons

[markxsherman]

Hi Folks,

I was about to buy a Sawstop an dstarted to consider Festool saws and routers. My question is this:

Does a Festool saw/router/MTF and accessories replace a table saw or does it complement it? My feeling is that you can do everything with Festool that you can do with a table saw. What are the limitations of this approach? What takes longer to do with Festools?

In addition, I have a nice set of saw blades. Can you get the same quality cuts from Festool saws as from a table saw?

I am new to this group and was refered here by a Festool rep. I was hoping to talk to some folks who do all of their wood projects with Festool and no longer use a table saw.

Thanks for any insight.

Mark

 

[fidelfs]

That question has been around for some time. At the beginning of the forum, there were some very adamant about festool will replace the tablesaw.

Now days is that the festool is a complement of the tablesaw, unless you don't have the room for a decent table saw, then you might use 100% festool tools.

You can use search to find some posts about the same topic.

Welcome to the forum!

>

About the same type of quality cuts, the festool saws are great, but IMHO i like better the tablesaw blades better.  Others preffer the festool, it is a matter of choice.  Try it!

 

[markxsherman]

OK. I found a few opics about table saws. One cut that would be hard to make is to take a piece of lumber and turn it into lets say a 1x1. That is, I have a two by four and I want to rip it down to a one by one. That would be tricky.

I can also see how repitive cuts, especially small ones would be tricky, tough that is wha the miter saw is for.

To restate my question, can you outfit a shop with Festool machines such that you have table saw functionality? Would you be compromising speed significantly? It is obvious that Festool makes cuttying plywood a simple and safer task.

 

[Ken Nagrod]

My opinion, and I think I speak for a majority of members (just me, so I don't get hate mail or banned  [big grin]) is that typically you will still need a table saw.  You can take all of our advice and information from MANY previous posts about this, but in the end, you will have to figure out what works best for you by using the tools.

I have found over several years of owning the Festool TS saws that they cannot replace a regular circular saw for framing work because of the plunge action compared to a blade that's already spinning at the correct depth, ready to pass thru 2x material and the couple of times I tried result in scary kickback and a cut that didn't even approach being straight (all of this without using the guiderail).  They are great for use with a guide rail to make rip and crosscuts of infinite length (depending on the lengths of guide rail) with very clean straight cuts.  The ability to rip a straight line thru lumber at any angle to maximize the good wood and remove defects or offensive grain patterns.  Using the parallel guide SET, you can rip very thin strips, BUT I feel a table saw is faster when you have to change rip dimensions quickly.  Bevel cuts are another plus for the Festool TS saws if you've watched any of the videos, you'll understand the precision.

Depending on the size of the table saw, you might be able to compliment the Festool saw with a jobsite table saw.  Mine is great because I can cut 4x lumber in a single pass on it where it would take multiple passes on the Festool saws.  A cabinet shop saw with a slider is probably easier at breaking down accurately large sheet goods, although you will need much more floor space for the saw and operation of it.  A regular cabinet saw or contractors saw can also be used for other operations that use a dado blade or tenon cutter and numerous other jigs.

Think about this.  If Festool felt their TS saws could completely replace a table saw, they wouldn't make the CS 50 and CS 70.

My final advice would be to do several jobs with the Festool TS saws only and see how it goes.  Good luck!

 

[Jesse Cloud]

Its a good question.  I've been using Festool for 5 years now and I still ask it.  There are some things a table saw does really easily, especially repetitive ripping.  I have a Unisaw with a 55 inch table.  Still use it often, but boy it would be nice to reclaim all that space!

It has never been a question of accuracy - I can get dead square cuts with my MFT/TS combination.  But there are some things - like ripping small pieces or ripping a gazillion copies of something where the tablesaw is just easier.

Ken's advice is right on, try using only Festool for a few tasks and see what you think.  For some applications, the Tablesaw is just a huge waste of space, for others you could do it with just Festool, but its more work.

 

[semenza]

Hi Mark,

Welcome to the FOG !  [smile]

You will get a lot of opinions on the table saw question and it is all true  [smile]

We like to let Ken Nagrod think he speaks for the majority, but don't tell him  :  [wink]  [smile]

Can a Festool set up replace a table saw completely?  Hmmm, pretty darn close. I have built a ton of stuff, all types and sizes, and I don't have a table saw. I do plan to get one at some point because, with out it,  some things require  a lot of set up and some things would be faster.  But pretty much you can do most things with a Festool set up.

The cut quality is excellent !

Seth

 

[PeterK]

Ken is right on.
I have a cabinet table saw and absolutely love using it for some tasks and also have the MFT/3 that gets used with my TS55 for other tasks as others have said. I would love to reclaim the space my table saw uses in my tiny 11x19 shop but just find certain cuts that feel safer and definitely faster on the table saw. A precision high quality job-site sized small table saw coupled with the Festool TS would be close to perfect. Also as Ken says, I have a separate circle saw for free hand usage as the TS for me is scary to use without the rail. Mine is a Makita 18 volt battery saw that gets a lot of usage for quick rough cuts.

 

[Brice Burrell]

Mark, as several people have already mentioned this topic has come up numerous times over the years.  Reading through this old threads can be painful because some people get very passionate over this debate.  There is a one factor that stands out in this divide, and that's whether you're a professionals or hobbyists.  Us pros can't be without the speed that the table saw offers while hobbyists can't afford the extra floor space that the table saw takes up.  That's the hart of the matter so keep that in mind as you read through the old threads.  Good luck and welcome to the FOG.          

 

[AlexThePalex]

I think the Festool system can do almost anything a table saw can do, provided you're willing to jump through enough hoops. And I also think it's the same way around.

But if you're short of space or money, you can even do all the same things with an old fashioned handsaw and a chissel. So a better question is, what's more practical? Well, I think that for most things a table saw is more practical. If you want to cut up sheets on location, get a plunge saw with rail. Same if you want to cut a door to size. But for most small pieces you have to cut the table saw will be more practical and easier to work with.

So for me it's not either this or that. In my opinion they compliment each other and you use them for the tasks that fit each of them best.

 

[jmbfestool]

Mark, as several people have already mentioned this topic has come up numerous times over the years.  Reading through this old threads can be painful because some people get very passionate over this debate.  There is a one factor that stands out in this divide, and that's whether you're a professionals or hobbyists.  Us pros can't be without the speed that the table saw offers while hobbyists can't afford the extra floor space that the table saw takes up.  That's the hart of the matter so keep that in mind as you read through the old threads.  Good luck and welcome to the FOG.          

Brice Pro?  [tongue] [tongue]  only kidding!

Well just get a Basic CMS and UG arm extensions  OF plate with a OF router and TS plate with a TS saw and you have your self a table saw and spindle moulder and can all be packed up to give your more space if needed! Soooo you can be completely Festool Dependent with out a proper table saw if you wanted to!   BUT saying all that I still would buy a proper solid table saw my self for a work shop  instead of the festool CMS which is good for site and okay for work shop!  I rather have a solid lump of metal which can take more abuse in a work shop!

JMB

 

[ScotF]

Lots of good advice, here.  I often ask myself that question and would love to reclaim the space my table saw occupies.  I think it also depends on what other machinery you have too -- a large bandsaw can minimize the use of a table saw and you can get surprisingly accurate rips and cross-cuts with the right blade. You can also use this machine to do things that you cannot do with any other power tool -- resawing large lumber, for example.  To me, a nice bandsaw is the heart of my shop and the Festool TS saw compliments it nicely.  I have been doing what others suggested and relying on the TS saw for some projects to see how I like it and if I find it just as easy, fast and accurate as my cabinet size.  The jury is still out, but what I have found is that you have to go slower when cutting thicker wood as there is obviously a difference in power, but I also find that dust collection with the Festool is much, much better and the quality of the cuts is the same or better.  The Festool also allows me to position the rail to take advantage of grain, etc... and I do not have to rely on my jointer as much since I can easily and accurately straight-line rip with my Festool.  I think that the parallel guides are a must-have accessory and I am thinking of trying the parallel fence that Festool sells for certain rips and to aid when beveling.

In the end, there is really no right answer.  Can it be done?  Absolutely and I think lots of folks have tried and been successful.  Is it the way you want to work?  Maybe -- give it a try and see how you like it.  You can always buy or sell tools later if they do not fit the way you work and if you are starting out, you can also buy used so that you do not take as big of hit financially.

Scot

 

[Vindingo]

Mark,

I was in your shoes a couple months ago ( Sawstop vs Festool ) regarding a purchase decision.  

I have decided to go the Festool route and here are a few of the reasons:

-I already have a TS55, guide rails, and CT.    

-The projects I am most likely to encounter at this moment will be with sheet goods

-Storage and portability of the Festool system

-Safety (if you take dust collection into consideration, the festool set up could be considered safer than a sawstop)

Buying into the set up including TS saw, dust collection, MFT, parallel guides and router will cost as much as a nice table saw.  I made the decision to jump into the green swimming pool the other day with the purchase of a MFT and parallel guides because they made sense for me and my projects.  It will be my first time making cabinets with a Festool only approach.  

What are you going to be using your tools for?  

This question is directed at other FOG members-
What happend to that inverted TS55 table saw plate with lift mechanism that fit into a MFT?  I remember seeing it a while back but now can't find anything about it.    

-Vinny

     

 

 

[Dan Clark]

Mark,

First, welcome to FOG!

I'll segue off of Vindingo's comments - it depends on your "shop" and what you will be building with the tools.  In my opinion, the issue is not which tool is better.  It is which tool meets your needs and constraints better.  I.e. start from the needs/constraints viewpoint and not from the tool viewpoint.

In general, the group consensus (which I agree with) is that a Festool TS will do everything that a tablesaw will do but certain cuts will be faster and easier on a tablesaw.  Short rips are the most common example where a tablesaw is probably a better option than a Festool TS. However...

Regarding what you will be doing with your saw...  Will you be ripping 20' 2X12's?  How about breaking down sheet goods?  Or shaving an angled 8' slice off a sheet of ply.    Or cross-cutting a 1X4 while the saw table (MFT or tablesaw) was full of tools and other materials.  I've done all of that with my TS55 and MFT.  But I had to.  Those are some of my needs.

Regarding your "shop"...  Is your shop a permanent space with enough infeed and outfeed space to handle your needs?  Or is your "shop" a garage where the tools have to be stored away because the garage is shared with cars that insist on being parked inside?  Or does your "shop" need to move to a worksite (either at home or other worksite)?

Besides my work and a little time for the family, I've been consumed with stabilizing the house structure, remodeling (actually rebuidling) the master bathroom, and refinishing the decks for the last five years.  (I've been a Festool owner since 2006.)  The pics below show some of my "shops".  While remodeling the master bathroom, I used every one of the Festools in the Garage Shop systainers IN the bathroom.    The Kapex and several of my Festool and Mirka sanders had heavy use on on three decks. All of the work was done on (in?) the deck "shops". 

The Garage Shop pics show my "permanent" shop environment.  Notice that everything is on wheels?  That's because it has to be stored away so that the cars can be parked.  That last pic is a drawing of what my garage shop will look like when the wall shelves are in and everything is stowed away.

Notice that I have NO tablesaw.  Everything was done with my portable tools.  Take a look at the narrow strips of wood on the MFT in my bathroom shop.  Those came from my TS55/MFT.  There is no room for a large tablesaw where I was working.  Even a small jobsite saw would have been tight.  And a tablesaw has nowhere near the flexibility of an TS55/MFT.  For my needs.

So why should you care about my "shops"?  I described my needs and my constraints, but  your woodworking needs and shop constraints are probably VASTLY different from mine.  And that's the point... 

The question of TS55/MFT vs tablesaw can easily swing to one side depending on YOUR needs and constraints.  Please share those with us.  What does your "shop" look like?  What will you be doing with the tools?

Regards,

Dan.

p.s. I've considered getting a small jobsite saw for several years.  Maybe one of the Bosch saws.  But every time I saw the need, my Festool tools dealt with it and the need faded away.

 

[markxsherman]

Hi folks,

First, when I mention Festool I mean a collection of Festool tables, jigs, saws, etc that would be sufficient to handle the project at hand. That is, the "Festool System".

Thanks for all of your input (so far). I'll try to answer some of the questions you folks have posed.  I have a Delta contractor saw and was going to upgrade it with a Beismeyer fence. Then my wife asked why I wasn't going to get a Sawstop? That made more sense. So off to Woodcrafters to check them out. However, I was somewhat familiar with Festool and am a fan of it's dust collection. As Woodcrafters has both Festool and Sawstop and a demo area to play with the Festool stuff, I started to think what would be the best bang for the buck. Then it was suggested that I keep the Delta and invest in the Festools. Keeping the Delta gets back to the question of upgrading it with a better fence. 8-( In either case, I do have a nice delta saw to get rid of as well as an FS Tools 6" dado set that was used once. For those of you who are looking for a table saw, and live out near Portland OR. if you are interested, let me know.

I am kind of an advanced beginner and started out by wanting to build a wooden clock: http://lisaboyer.com/Claytonsite/Claytonsite1.htm .

However, with siding projects and joining the guild, I now also want to do some remodeling and try building bookshelves, cabinets, and maybe some other stuff like toys.  I have a one car garage and the floor is cracked and not level so sliding stuff around is ok but from front to back is a problem because of the cracks. I am building a dog gate and had a bunch of weird sized oak, mostly 3/4 x 1.75 - 2.25 strips that were about 5 feet in length. The table saw made ripping them trivial.

From what I can gather, everyone would like to have a good sized shop with a bunch of Festools and a table saw.  The Festool pretty much eliminates the need for a 52" table saw fence (any long fence) and this alone will save some space.

I thought Dan Clarks comments and photos were very helpful. He works with his tools in the room itself. That is hard to do with a table saw, not to mention the dust it would blow everywhere. Thanks.

One observation that may be wrong is that many Festool folks love the jigs and accessories that come with Festool but don't discuss the jigs they make. Is it possible that the repetitive cuts that people claim take much time can be made relatively quickly using a few jigs?

What I would like is to have both a Festool setup and a nice table saw. For $5000, I could have all of my projects build by someone else while I am vacationing in Europe

One last observation. If cutting down 4x8 sheet goods, the MFT doesn't seem long enough to keep the sheet from bending on the ends.  Seems like a 4x8 MFT or a 3x7 would be more useful.

Thanks for all of you comments.

 

[Dan Clark]

Mark,

Comments below.

Regards,

Dan.

Hi folks,

...
I am kind of an advanced beginner and started out by wanting to build a wooden clock: http://lisaboyer.com/Claytonsite/Claytonsite1.htm .

Take a look at the list of tools to make these.  It looks like none of the tools that we have been discussing (tablesaws and Festools) would be useful for these.
 

However, with siding projects and joining the guild, I now also want to do some remodeling and try building bookshelves, cabinets, and maybe some other stuff like toys.  I have a one car garage and the floor is cracked and not level so sliding stuff around is ok but from front to back is a problem because of the cracks. I am building a dog gate and had a bunch of weird sized oak, mostly 3/4 x 1.75 - 2.25 strips that were about 5 feet in length. The table saw made ripping them trivial.

While ripping boards for the dog gate is a great example of where a tablesaw is the better choice, it's not necessarily the best choice for installing siding, remodeling, building shelves and cabinets, and making toys.  If the siding is wood, a miter saw is the best choice for cross-cuts and a TS55 + long guide rail for long rips.  Unless you are making the bookshelves and cabinets out of solid wood, the TS55 + LR32 would be a good choice for making the bookshelves and cabinets.  For face frames, table saw + miter saw + router table.  For general remodeling, it will depend on what you're doing, but I suspect that you'll find a miter saw + guide rail saw (TS55 or 75) + good drill and impact driver will be necessary.  Making toys is another thing altogether and will depend on what you are making; I suspect that a band saw would be very useful.

From what I can gather, everyone would like to have a good sized shop with a bunch of Festools and a table saw.  The Festool pretty much eliminates the need for a 52" table saw fence (any long fence) and this alone will save some space.

A nice shop would be great.  Unfortunately, for the vast majority of people (at least in the US), the only decent space we have is the garage.  Festools and other portable tools (like smaller job site table saws) are more suitable for our "shop" constraints.

I thought Dan Clarks comments and photos were very helpful. He works with his tools in the room itself. That is hard to do with a table saw, not to mention the dust it would blow everywhere. Thanks.

Right now, I think the concept of moving your "shop" to the room that you're remodeling is still a concept to you.  The first time you measure a board, turn around and cut it, and then install it immediately is when the concept hits home.  You think, "Wow, this is awesome!".  Then you feel it.  Your viewpoint changes radically.

Regarding dust collection, my wife is very picky about dust.  Our bedroom door is about 5 feet from that MFT and saw.  She NEVER complained about dust even though I was cutting dimensional wood, sheet goods, and drywall a few feet from where we slept.  One other benefit that is not obvious is that your tool dust collector turns into a standard shop vac by attaching vac attachments.  I.e. that your vac is always at your work site and available for quick cleanup.

One observation that may be wrong is that many Festool folks love the jigs and accessories that come with Festool but don't discuss the jigs they make. Is it possible that the repetitive cuts that people claim take much time can be made relatively quickly using a few jigs?

People make many jigs.  I've made a few.  Do a search here and on www.talkfestool.com .  You should find lots of jigs, including some will make repetitive cuts.
 

One last observation. If cutting down 4x8 sheet goods, the MFT doesn't seem long enough to keep the sheet from bending on the ends.  Seems like a 4x8 MFT or a 3x7 would be more useful.

Check out Ron Paulks portable work table.  Several people have built them.  The most popular size seems to be 3X6 or 3X7.

 

[Wim]

The question of limitations seem to relate to the use of free hand tools, with or without a guide rail or similar tools in a table. That is exactly the reason for the CMS table system of Festool. I miss my CMS/TS55 in Holland very much. I used the TS55 a few times free hand but the rest of its service came from table use. And it was very accurate at that.
With some jigs, some fiddling and a lot of brainpower you can invent ways to do the same things with a free hand tool and a guide rail as the table-equivalent but a good table (saw, router, sander or plane) has its earned place in the shop.