questions from beginners

[Firldetel1967]

I often hear similar questions from beginners. "What are the minimum requirements to get started with carpentry?"

Basic understanding of working with equipment, knowing as much as possible about wood, basic concepts of project design, concepts of measures and scales, concepts of safety on the job, and above all, common sense.

I don't think woodworking/woodcarving is as difficult as any other occupation, and people are very much afraid and don't do anything. What do you think is important to start with?

 

[mino]

I often hear similar questions from beginners. "What are the minimum requirements to get started with carpentry?"

Basic understanding of working with equipment, knowing as much as possible about wood, basic concepts of project design, concepts of measures and scales, concepts of safety on the job, and above all, common sense.

I don't think woodworking/woodcarving is as difficult as any other occupation, and people are very much afraid and don't do anything. What do you think is important to start with?

As a job, I strongly believe it is the same as with any trade:
Get hired as an apprentice (ideal) or as a help hand (easier) and observe. You may find this job is not for you easily at this stage ... and you get to gripes "how stuff is done" and "what is needed".

If you need to start by asking what is needed to "start", you are placing the wrong questions to begin.

IF you are looking at it only as DYI/Hobby, have some basic math/physics knowledge for your construction does not end up falling on your head, then and only then Youtube and forums like here are good enough.

Youtube and all kinds of manuals/books, on themselves will not give you the work organization experience that allows for a profitable/efficient workflow.

I would argue that even after you do this as DIY/Hobby for years, you should STILL get hired as a help hand by an experienced crew before embarking on your own endeavours. This was true a millennia ago and is still true today in any trade. You can get good results just from a LOT of study & try if you are smart.
But you cannot get the "experience-based" efficiency that way, so will struggle for years to build that up yourself. OK if it is a hobby/fun. Not so much fun if it is your family livelihood at stake.

 

[AlexThePalex]

Jeez, you guys are overthinking this.

What do you need to get started with carpentry?

You get a hammer and a saw, and a box of nails.

Voila.

 

[Bob D.]

Jeez, you guys are overthinking this.

What do you need to get started with carpentry?

You get a hammer and a saw, and a box of nails.

Voila.

True, but getting hired is another story.  [big grin]

 

[mino]

Jeez, you guys are overthinking this.

What do you need to get started with carpentry?

You get a hammer and a saw, and a box of nails.

Voila.

And end up with a nail in a knee and a finger splashed on the hammer ...
[big grin]

There are folks who never really drove a nail seriously considering to "start in carpentry".

IF one needs to ask, one is already asking the wrong question and should approach someone who is in the trade for a helper job first.

EDIT:

Basic understanding of working with equipment, knowing as much as possible about wood, basic concepts of project design, concepts of measures and scales, concepts of safety on the job, and above all, common sense.

Just to make clear, I believe above is a plus but is actually where a qualified tradesmen sits. Not a beginner.
I.e. is something not achievable for your casual shop floor worker without a major hobby in carpentry for example.

To say that to start you need to effectively know the trade is IMO false. You need much less than that.
You need to know enough to get yourself hired as a helper hand (under market rate, if you are unqualified or even "free" as an apprentice), and move up from there.

 

[pixelated]

I think it's safe to say I've learned more about wood hand splitting 3 cords a year for my wood stove than I ever learned by sawing and hammering 2x4's.
For working in the trades, certainly the traditional get hired as a help and work your way up is good method. But for someone who's goal is DIY projects, or just needs alternate paths, there are workshops. Also volunteering for an organization like Habitat on builds is good way to build sawdust making and hammering iron skills. It's kind of similar to signing on as a helper to a framing crew.

Lastly, I'd add a speed square to Alex's list.

 

[squall_line]

I think it's safe to say I've learned more about wood hand splitting 3 cords a year for my wood stove than I ever learned by sawing and hammering 2x4's.
For working in the trades, certainly the traditional get hired as a help and work your way up is good method. But for someone who's goal is DIY projects, or just needs alternate paths, there are workshops. Also volunteering for an organization like Habitat on builds is good way to build sawdust making and hammering iron skills. It's kind of similar to signing on as a helper to a framing crew.

Lastly, I'd add a speed square to Alex's list.

I wish this forum software had a "+1" or "like" button, because I agree with all of this.  I haven't been hand-splitting for very long, nor very much, but it definitely gives a person appreciation for grain direction and knots and wood fiber strength.

And volunteering with Habitat for Humanity is an awesome way to not only give back, but also learn a skill.  If you have a good crew to work with, you can learn quite a bit in a short amount of time and enjoy doing it.  You may also learn that the part you thought you'd enjoy isn't really for you but there's some other aspect of it that you enjoy more or pick up more easily, which is also an important thing to learn.

 

[Bob D.]

"or even "free" as an apprentice)"

Disagree. NEVER place the value of your work at zero, even as a rank beginner/helper.

If you do you look worthless to whoever might hire you and to yourself you're saying you are worthless.

It's more about attitude than income, but it has an influence on your production and performance.

You work, you get paid. But you need to earn what you're paid. No free lunches and no free rides.

 

[mino]

"or even "free" as an apprentice)"

Disagree. NEVER place the value of your work at zero, even as a rank beginner/helper.

If you do you look worthless to whoever might hire you and to yourself you're saying you are worthless.

It's more about attitude than income, but it has an influence on your production and performance.

You work, you get paid. But you need to earn what you're paid. No free lunches and no free rides.

Over here it is common to pay for private schooling.

In that sense, working "free" is not really free here. It is about agreeing that one will "pay" a master to transfer the knowledge to one in exchange for his work/time instead of cash. This type of an arrangement is actually as old as people are social and existed before money was invented.

This can be a good deal for both sides in scenarios where the "attention" required to be given to a novice is making it a wash as if he was not there the master can do the work himself, thus not giving a master a rational reason to accept an apprentice.

In such a scenario is common that the apprentice is given above-his-skill tasks and the master is expected to invest his time to allow him to learn and complete the tasks.

Not everyone can afford that. One needs to live from something so usually this is done partially - the pay is agreed as subsistence-level only analogous to a mutual understanding only part of the work will pay for the schooling while rest will be paid for in cash.

But there is nothing bad in such an arrangement. Actually, it gives the apprentice a stronger position. If all work is taken as a compensation, it is harder to impossible for a master to abuse this unlike when just lower pay is agreed. And it is still advantageous economically as you avoid running your "tuition" through the taxes system which would take away half of it before it would reach the master ...

ADD:
Working for "free" to learn may not be legal in many jurisdictions so YMMV as the state may insist on having "its cut".
But I know of a couple such arrangements, were they legal or not I do not know, when friends who were total novices agreed for such to get their feet wet. Usually over a fixed time of a couple months and then either stayed as paid or moved on to seek a paid job/get a business etc. Was not in carpentry, but the concept of apprentice/master is not trade-specific in my view.

 

[squall_line]

"or even "free" as an apprentice)"

Disagree. NEVER place the value of your work at zero, even as a rank beginner/helper.

If you do you look worthless to whoever might hire you and to yourself you're saying you are worthless.

It's more about attitude than income, but it has an influence on your production and performance.

You work, you get paid. But you need to earn what you're paid. No free lunches and no free rides.

Over here it is common to pay for private schooling.

In that sense, working "free" is not really free here. It is about agreeing that one will "pay" a master to transfer the knowledge to one in exchange for his work/time instead of cash. This type of an arrangement is actually as old as people are social and existed before money was invented.

This can be a good deal for both sides in scenarios where the "attention" required to be given to a novice is making it a wash as if he was not there the master can do the work himself, thus not giving a master a rational reason to accept an apprentice.

In such a scenario is common that the apprentice is given above-his-skill tasks and the master is expected to invest his time to allow him to learn and complete the tasks.

Not everyone can afford that. One needs to live from something so usually this is done partially - the pay is agreed as subsistence-level only analogous to a mutual understanding only part of the work will pay for the schooling while rest will be paid for in cash.

But there is nothing bad in such an arrangement. Actually, it gives the apprentice a stronger position. If all work is taken as a compensation, it is harder to impossible for a master to abuse this unlike when just lower pay is agreed. And it is still advantageous economically as you avoid running your "tuition" through the taxes system which would take away half of it before it would reach the master ...

ADD:
Working for "free" to learn may not be legal in many jurisdictions so YMMV as the state may insist on having "its cut".
But I know of a couple such arrangements, were they legal or not I do not know, when friends who were total novices agreed for such to get their feet wet. Usually over a fixed time of a couple months and then either stayed as paid or moved on to seek a paid job/get a business etc. Was not in carpentry, but the concept of apprentice/master is not trade-specific in my view.

Mino-

Unfortunately, on this side of the pond, it is all too common for this arrangement to be severely abused.  It's one of the many reasons that unions were created and that trade groups exist.  There are apprenticeships and a path towards different levels of certification within the union systems, but I haven't been through any of them or seen the model in the Czech Republic to know whether either one is better or worse than "working for free".

There's also a certain segment of society over here (and probably throughout the world as well) that tries to convince creative/artist types to "work for exposure", claiming that the work they do for an event or a company should be free because the event will bring the artist visibility and recognition.  That's also a load of rubbish and a pox on the earth in all sorts of ways; there are many "free" ways to get recognition, even in our overly-media-saturated society, and still retain one's dignity.

That said, there is also a societal push towards entitlement and instant gratification that seems to be pushing people away from legitimate apprenticeships or desire to work in the trades.  It seems that many people want to be an expert RIGHT NOW and start making money off of endorsements.

 

[mino]

Mino-

Unfortunately, on this side of the pond, it is all too common for this arrangement to be severely abused.  It's one of the many reasons that unions were created and that trade groups exist.  There are apprenticeships and a path towards different levels of certification within the union systems, but I haven't been through any of them or seen the model in the Czech Republic to know whether either one is better or worse than "working for free".

There's also a certain segment of society over here (and probably throughout the world as well) that tries to convince creative/artist types to "work for exposure", claiming that the work they do for an event or a company should be free because the event will bring the artist visibility and recognition.  That's also a load of rubbish and a pox on the earth in all sorts of ways; there are many "free" ways to get recognition, even in our overly-media-saturated society, and still retain one's dignity.

That said, there is also a societal push towards entitlement and instant gratification that seems to be pushing people away from legitimate apprenticeships or desire to work in the trades.  It seems that many people want to be an expert RIGHT NOW and start making money off of endorsements.

With you there.

CZ has 40 yrs of centrally-planed economy so unions are pretty weak and there are really none of consequence for freelance trades. Also old trades organizations were abolished and new are very weak as they were not needed for 40 yrs.

The trades market is thus not as mature/regulated as it was even 100 years ago and is still in the US I presume. The general notion is that "as long as both parties are satisfied, safety is observed and taxes are paid" the state does not mind pretty much anything.

My point being, there is a difference in:
- agreeing to an "apprenticeship" paid for by "free" work where you explicitly agree with someone on the terms of compensation being the training-on-the-job you get and can abort at any time if you feel it is not honored etc.
- agreeing/getting a low-skill helper position officially where you have very little wiggle room in the way of ensuring someone will advise you in the end, they can just as well proclaim your work is not worth even the peanuts you get paid .. and they may be right

For that reason I would argue the helper job is worse /here/ if all you want is to learn beyond just observing. It is a normal employment contract in front of the law so the master can simply get you sign it as a ruse of "you will learn" and not provide it while you will have no easy way to put pressure on him.
But maybe that comes from the law here where the employee cannot simply "exit" an employment contract on ones whim unless in a probation period etc. And even if can, this goes in his CV which is not good ...

While an apprenticeship agreement - whether formal or, usually, informal - gives a better position as it is acknowledged one is there to learn and not as cheapo help labor.

 

[AlexThePalex]

Here in Holland you wouldn't even be hired on such a basis. First you got to show your papers, that you have an education, with at least 5 years experience, even if you're fresh out of school.

 

[Crazyraceguy]

I don't see the term "apprentice" being equal to "intern", where an intern is the no cash payment and the experience is the pay.
Apprentices are usually stuck with the "busy work" or harder "manual labor" in the beginning, but they definitely get paid too.

I actually started in the shop where I work as the delivery driver, also doing the metal work and machine maintenance. I moved into the assembly area after a while and progressed from there over the years. It was not a planned path, it just worked out that way.

 

[mino]

I don't see the term "apprentice" being equal to "intern" ...

Probably a cultural/language thing. I meant what you call an "intern" then when talking of "pay for training by work".

Here what normally translates to "apprentice" is called "učeň" which is today used for a student at a trades school or in the original meaning for someone "learning from a master ("mistr") in an explicit arrangement". Učeň can earn some money for work done but it is not really considered "pay" and is usually symbolic, well below the sustenance level.

Historically "učeň" (apprentice) would have been provided only food and shelter but no pay and it was also common his family had to pay for him to be accepted by the Master. /Master could accept a gifted apprentice for free, of course/ The Master was considered responsible for the apprentice well-being/health from then on until his/her studies were done.

Intern (stážista) is a relatively new term here and is referring to "stipend-style" paid positions for students of a vocational schools. It is never used for unpaid scenarios but is rarely (ever?) used in the context of trades hence the cultural difference. These days it is used mostly in the white collar jobs context, especially in IT and administration.

 

[Crazyraceguy]

Yeah mino, intern is more of an office job type thing here too, usually with college students, short term/summer jobs.
While there are still true apprentice programs around in some fields, they are fading away.
Around here, it's hard to get anyone into the cabinet shop trade. Well before Covid, this has been a problem for years.
I really don't know why though? It has become a pretty "tech-heavy" thing in the last several years. I would think that this would attract younger people? It is far less laborious than in past years, much more computerized.

 

[squall_line]

Yeah mino, intern is more of an office job type thing here too, usually with college students, short term/summer jobs.
While there are still true apprentice programs around in some fields, they are fading away.
Around here, it's hard to get anyone into the cabinet shop trade. Well before Covid, this has been a problem for years.
I really don't know why though? It has become a pretty "tech-heavy" thing in the last several years. I would think that this would attract younger people? It is far less laborious than in past years, much more computerized.

It's hard to get younger people into trades of just about any kind, really.  And unless you can get that "tech-heavy" information in front of people, they might not even be aware that it's a thing.  See also why Mike Rowe put together the Mike Rowe Works Foundation.

I feel like the rest of it is that when non-tradespeople get to be a certain age or experience level in their non-trades job, they have more time and money to get into handyman work for one reason or another and possibly turn it into a hobby.  But by then, the prospects of starting over at the bottom of the ladder wage-wise is pretty untenable, so they just dabble in projects for friends and family or maybe get into specialty stuff like cutting boards.

At least, that's where I'm at right now.  Going on 43, nearly half of my life in IT and other white-collar work, and now I'd like to dabble in furniture, cabinetry, and/or trim carpentry.  My back is shot from too many years in horrible chairs (I'm out for almost half a day after any carpentry project around the house) and I have my first kid on the way with a wife who will likely stay home to raise our child/children for the next 5-10 years.  Not exactly an ideal situation to leave my salary and benefits behind to walk into a cabinet shop and sweep floors for a year or two.

 

[Stone Message]

I have been there, done that and reflected loads....

The most important thing with any practical hobby/trade or whatever is to have the guts to have a go - do not be afraid to make a real bishup. Do not be afraid of those pros who will try to score some points or try to make you look inferior. Listen and learn from the huge number of super pros and amateurs here on the FOG and elsewhere who help you to get it right.

Learn from your mistakes and never ever rip off a customer.

Life is about learning and not making excuses.

Cheers.

Peter

 

[rst]

think it, try it, fix it....fake it till you make it

 

[Lincoln]

Here in Australia we have a formal apprenticeship program, for the majority of trades. A combination of 'on the job' training and 'trade school' learning. When I was an apprentice I went to school for two weeks at a time, three times a year, for three years. Fourth year was spent entirely 'on the job'. If both were passed, you were awarded a 'trade certificate'.
Some apprentices now go to school one day a week, most weeks of the year, instead of the two week block.
In general, you stay with the same employer for the duration of the four year apprenticeship. It really was a great way to learn. Can't imagine trying to do it with no formal pathway to follow.

 

[DeformedTree]

I think as long as you are referring to making furniture type work, then one should be able to start as a hobby, then some side work for folks that makes money and so forth.

But if you are talking trades work (construction), that will be a challenge.  In general you can't do anything on someone else's property without being licensed, as you need that to get a permit and you need a permit for anything non-cosmetic on the house.  So for that path you are talking a full on career path change/etc as people have implied.

As long as you are doing non permit work, I would say just start doing stuff for you, show it to others, and folks may come knocking. If your good at interior trim, or hanging doors and such, you can probably find small jobs. Just don't hang your first door on someone elses house.

I think the habitat for humanity comment is a good one. If someone has little background in home construction, go for it.  Better than someone posting a video on Youtube that has no idea what they are talking about. For those outside the US, habitat for humanity builds homes for folks who can't afford it, uses a mix of donated materials, used materials, volunteer workforce (trained and un-trained), and the future homeowner putting sweet equity into the house. It's one of the few ways someone would be around real construction, and not be just around family projects where those doing the project may not know what they are doing.

There is always your own house. Use it to learn on, try all the different trades/skills you have interest in, learn what you might like or not like doing.