QWAS dogs accuracy?

[Sapper]

So - I'm admittedly a bit of a neophyte and a lurker. But after considerable paralysis by analysis, I ordered the $100 kit of qwas dogs. I've watched the Paul M videos repeatedly, and after a bit, it seemed like a good idea for getting things square (vs spending $100 on a good square).

I've fiddled and futzed with my setup for over a week, and still can't get my cut accurate and square as I can with hand tools. I gave it another go tonight, and as I was trying to get my fence aligned to a row of holes using the qwas dogs, I happened to twist the dog a bit, and the fit got tighter against the rail. I ran my fingernail over the dog, and the "lip" of the "head" is larger on one side than the other. $100 for this set of "precision" dogs seems nuts enough to me as it is, but surely this isn't the norm? I've searched and can't find any mention of the shafts not being concentric. If this is what everybody has and lives with, I'm sending them back. I can't have the only set of poorly machined dogs......

I'll post this anyway - and head back to the garage, and re-re-check. But I swear, one side has a tiny lip, the other is quite pronounced.

Apologize for the tone. Bit miffed about all the futzing I've done.....

 

[copcarcollector]

Have you contacted the manufacturer, or your supplier, to see what they have to say.....??

 

[Sapper]

No, but I understand your point.

But given how widely used these are, and I'm new to this system and the accessories, I don't know what "normal" is. Before I spend the time tracking down someone to talk to, I thought I'd see what the normal baseline for these things is.

And, from my scientific test of wrapping paper around it, I'm thinking 3-4 sheets off. Most definitely not concentric.

The answer may very well come back, "Yea, of course they aren't perfect. It's woodworking. Dogs being 15 thousandths (or whatever it is) off doesn't matter."

 

[peter halle]

[member=2022]Qwas[/member] Might want to know about this thread.

Just out of curiosity, did you try this in other holes?  It could be a hole issue also.

Peter

 

[Sapper]

Peter (I watched your videos as well),

It is not a hole issue. Again, I can feel how one side, of the top of the dog, is "bigger" than the other.

I'll go with the assumption this is not a normal condition, and call the company.

Thanks all.

 

[Qwas]

I'm sorry to hear of your problems. I haven't heard of a set not being concentric before this. That would be a manufacturing error and certainly qualifies for a free warranty replacement. Contact your supplier and it should be resolved quickly.

 

[Scorpion]

Having owned a machine shop, and CNC lathes, I have a reasonable guess as to why the part wouldn't be concentric.

The raw material itself wasn't concentric going in the machine, the flaw wasn't caught by quality control.  Depending on the type of material used, it's not uncommon at all for the ends of the manufactured (raw) material to be ill-formed.  If the dog(s) you happen to get were the first few or last few on the stick. They could feed through the bar-feed just fine, be gripped by the lathe chuck just fine, and machine just fine but end up out of round on the hat diameter because -

A) skim cut wasn't adequate enough to true the material

B) the manufacturer is relying on the trueness of the material for the hat to save machine time. 

Either way, the result is a defect which gets left for quality control to catch.  Having had a bar-fed CNC I can tell you it's really tempting to let the parts build up in the catch can and ship them as they come off the machine but it is also possible they only validate a small percentage of the parts since QC (people time) costs money.

Regardless of all that, If the lip differs at all to your naked eye, it's junk.  Return it as a defect.  Don't look at your table with a pondering eye or feel like you're at all to blame for using it wrong.

Do you know someone who has a lathe?  If you're OCD and really want to know (and share back to us) you could chuck it in a lathe and turn it on low RPM you'd see it wobble (take video and post it).  What really needs to be done is for someone to chuck it in a lathe and check the TIR (total indicated runout) using a dial indicator.  If the runout of either the head or the shaft differs more than a few thousandths of an inch (without being removed from the chuck), I'd return it. 

If you happen to be near Denver, Colorado I'd be happy to check the runout for you so you know.

 

[Sapper]

Scorpion,

After living in south Denver for year, sadly no, the Army has brought me to Georgia; but I appreciate the offer.

I'm quite ignorant of the CNC process, and appreciate your details about the process.

As a way of follow-up, Mr. Adams and Mr. Marino responded immediately to my question. Bob has been very accommodating about the replacement. I'm hoping that he has the means to measure the runout as you describe. Again, to my untrained eyes and hands, I think they're off, but would be willing to admit that, after some more expert analysis, that I'm the one with too much... runout.

Thanks again.

 

[Scorpion]

As a way of follow-up, Mr. Adams and Mr. Marino responded immediately to my question. Bob has been very accommodating about the replacement. I'm hoping that he has the means to measure the runout as you describe. Again, to my untrained eyes and hands, I think they're off, but would be willing to admit that, after some more expert analysis, that I'm the one with too much... runout.

Thanks again.

Glad it got handled.  I had only intended to help determine what the next best step was in your troubleshooting efforts. I know how frustrating it can be when something seems so simple but it's just not ending up simple.  What's more frustrating is when the frustration occurs at the beginning of the weekend without an ability to resolve it.  Guess I saw your post and figured I could do something about it.  Selfishly I got to spend some time on the lathe which I really enjoyed. 

Im glad the MFG is a member here.  I had no idea or I might have recommended reaching out to him/them directly. 

Regards,

Matt

 

[TheMarvelousOne]

Any update on this? I ordered 2 pairs that should be arriving tomorrow or Thursday. As a newbie, I really struggle with verifying things are square and I ordered these to assist in that aspect of things. Now I'm worried, LOL.  [unsure]

Hi FOG, I finally grew a pair and posted!

 

[peter halle]

Rock on Dude!  You'll love them.  I know that my three sets are fine as well as the other Qwas products I have.

Peter

 

[waho6o9]

No worries TMO, QWAS dogs are great products and you'll have zero buyers

remorse with them.

 

[nickao]

I have all the types of the dogs Qwas sells. They are all great, I never had one less than perfect.

Qwas invented the dogs as we use them in the Festool MFT. There are plenty off knock offs, I only ever get the Qwas dogs because he runs(is) a small company and I like to support that and he is a true Festoolian. To bad something like this could not get a patent. He put loads of work in developing it when so many scoffed at the initial idea.

You will be happy with them.

 

[Sapper]

I can update the collective group on the resolution, but I've not heard quantitatively if my returned dogs were measurably faulty or not.

Bob Marino worked with me, sometimes on a daily basis, getting a replacement set out to me. There was a bit of a mix-up, and I shipped my set back to him before I got the new set, so I didn't have the ability to compare them side-by-side.

The new dogs are as I expect them to be; they seem concentric and are giving repeatable results. I'm convinced that my initial dogs were not concentric, but again, I couldn't measure it. I talked to Bob a few times and told him I am completely fine if he measures them and posts the results here - and finds that I'm too picky or in error.

In short, you should feel confident in ordering the dogs. I'm now very pleased with them.

*Edit - I've also edited the threat title to be a bit less inflammatory.

 

[TheMarvelousOne]

Thanks fellas! Looking forward to them arriving. Bought a used MFT from a local guy and followed the setup videos I found on YouTube only to find out the previous owner moved the feather keys so hopefully the QWAS dogs help reassure I'm square!