Qwas Vacuum clamping dog system for MFT, Glastonbury 2012

K

Ken Nagrod

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Jul 15, 2010
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3,431
Note.... Ken's post is first  because of forum function. See topic starter and video post next one down.

Seth

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Very nice demos everyone.

My issue is having to have an MFT that isn't cut up from use and shellacing the face and holes.  That seems to kill it for me.  I want to also point out from my experience using the Domino DF500, when you clamped that long board with vacuum, it pulled down the part of the board that was within the seal.  The rest of the board was a little higher (warped) and the Domino or Domiplate won't lay flat on certain warped areas depending on the shape, therefore your dominos will rise and fall along the length and you may have issues when joining two pieces.

Another thing I'll mention from my personal experience, when you cut a domino mortise, do it once.  Don't re-plunge or you can actually widen the mortise in height causing a loose joint.  Sometimes you get lucky.  Most of the time when I did it, it was too loose and a waste of a mortise.

Craig, thanks for showing the Bowclamps.  You gave some info I wasn't aware of.

Eric, coping MDF?  Why?

Charles, thanks for the video and pictures and Victor, for the pictures also.  Just noticed Charles posted some pictures.  Really nice!
 
Thanks Seth, splitting the thread seemed appropriate since we are catching up to Fogtainers in pages. If you have any questions about Vac Dogs please let me know and Im sure QWAS will chime in, tanks Eric
 
Ken, fair question. One it was all i had laying around and two I didnt want to be fiddling around to long sanding and bore people. I wanted the presentation to move quicker and it was just an example, Eric
 
Ken, I'm sure you could find a way to make a small panel out of ply or other sheet good with a few holes to throw down on the MFT as a base for the Qwas vac dogs.

Not to get too far off topic but why not cope crown MDF?
 
Brice Burrell said:
Ken, I'm sure you could find a way to make a small panel out of ply or other sheet good with a few holes to throw down on the MFT as a base for the Qwas vac dogs.

Not to get too far off topic but why not cope crown?
Click to expand...

My question wasn't about crown.  It was, why cope MDF.  Coping as you know is really to alleviate the visual effects of expansion and contraction (gaps) at joints.  MDF won't and you can't get crisp edges with MDF.  It's really just paper.  That's why I was confused as to Eric not using wood molding for his demo.  Also, using the coping saw, the RAS and sandpaper folded like origami, to me takes too long.  I would have just cut it with the coping saw and been done if it were right there, but that's just the way I work and use a coping saw a lot, however, I would really only do that with wood.
 
Ken, let me first say that i was sad you and your NJ crew couldnt make it. It would have been even more fun with you guys. I was gonna try to get to HD for some wood crown, but believe it or not i put a huge amount of my spare time into making this party a success. I can assure you that there will be another video demo surfacing of wood crown and the RAS, so look for that. The one reason like coping in general, no matter what the material, is ease of installation. And even though i use three tools to get my objective done, when not presenting and working in the field it is very quick. I know how to cope with the Coping Saw, i just like the RAS better. Maybe its bc im so much younger then you? Or maybe i just cant resist power tools? Not sure. I also just wanted to show people how i do it, so they can have more options. Good discussion topic though, Ken, thanks for looking and promise me you will be at 2013? Eric
 
Ken Nagrod said:
My question wasn't about crown.  It was, why cope MDF.  Coping as you know is really to alleviate the visual effects of expansion and contraction (gaps) at joints.  MDF won't and you can't get crisp edges with MDF.  It's really just paper.  That's why I was confused as to Eric not using wood molding for his demo.  Also, using the coping saw, the RAS and sandpaper folded like origami, to me takes too long.  I would have just cut it with the coping saw and been done if it were right there, but that's just the way I work and use a coping saw a lot, however, I would really only do that with wood.
Click to expand...

Ken, I mistakenly wrote crown but I meant MDF. [doh]  Generally I'll get a better fit by coping than mitering so I almost always cope MDF.    
 
I like the simplicity offered by Peter Halle's vac clamping method ( Youtube )  No need to shellac another MFT top or worry about saw cuts.  I also like that with the plate under the work piece, everything is lifted off of the table, allowing access to the entire edge.  

My MFT gets 1000 cuts in it, which would mean I need to dedicate a separate MFT for vacuum clamping, in addition to the dogs, vac pump, hoses, gauges, etc.  

I have the screw clamps, quick clamps, and clamping elements- not sure where this would really fit in to my workflow.  

I like the Fes vac sys and the Schmalz alternative but one is NAINA and the other cost a bit more than I can justify for the convenience.

I also think the noise of the little pump going would drive me insane.    

 
Brice, that is THE reason. Too much fiddling around with miters in way out corners. Not to agree with Ken, but an old time cabinet shop guy from JLC who was at the party said the exact same thing as Ken to me after the demo. If Ken can miter and not get call backs then he is a genius bc hes doing it faster the. brice and myself. In carpentry i think its the most efficient, enjoyable, long lasting, most aesthetically pleasing method that you should use. Everyones different, no right answer, but interesting discussion. We should really take it somewhere else though??? eric
 
BTW Eric,  Ken convinced Dave and me that we shouldn't go because you were doing the demo with MDF.

[poke]
 
Vinny,

I don't know if it was the video, but the pump sounded louder than pumps I've heard and maybe that has something to do with it coming from Harbor Freight and being a lot less expensive than other pumps.

I've heard your response about the Schmalz system price by others.  Understandable.  I'm almost 100% sure they make the Vacsys for Festool.  Either way, German products typically carry that high price tag.

I agree with your thoughts on Peter's setup.  Since this has just come out, I'll take a wait and see attitude.  Vacuum clamping isn't something I've done and I agree that there are times when it's a better solution.  Like Eric said in his video, shuffling the quick clamps around on the MFT can be a PITB.
 
Guys, if you had a radio on while the pump was on, you would still be able to hear the words. Since the pump doesnt come with the package it would be up to you to get a noisy one or a loud one. This is the cheapest model from Harbor Freight.

I live sealing up the MFT top. I sanded mine with a 2000 grit foam pad after i was done finishing. It is amazing, no glue would stick. I am gonna do my other two MFTs when I get around to it. I used LenMars Moisture Cured Urethane over Shallac bc i felt it self leveled better.

I only had a week to prepare, while preparing for the most exclusive woodworking event of 2013, so i didnt get to explore the realm of possibilities of the Vac Dogs fully, but initially i am very impressed and i think that when the pricing is announced a lot of woodworkers will find uses for it. If you guys have any questions I can try to answer them for you, Eric
 
Ken Nagrod said:
I've heard your response about the Schmalz system price by others.  Understandable.  I'm almost 100% sure they make the Vacsys for Festool.  Either way, German products typically carry that high price tag.

I agree with your thoughts on Peter's setup.  Since this has just come out, I'll take a wait and see attitude.  Vacuum clamping isn't something I've done and I agree that there are times when it's a better solution.  Like Eric said in his video, shuffling the quick clamps around on the MFT can be a PITB.
Click to expand...

Regardless of the German origin, its not the initial price, more like a bang per buck.  The XL (or domino 500) is expensive, but worth it IMO, a game changer.  Will a vac clamp change my world... don't know, but I doubt it.  

I'm not trying to be negative, just my observation from the video.  

To quantify it a bit - I'd be willing to spend $100 and 1 hour in set up to try a vacuum clamping system.  That's roughly the cost of the clamping elements and they require no set up.      

 
ericbuggeln said:
I live sealing up the MFT top. I sanded mine with a 2000 grit foam pad after i was done finishing. It is amazing, no glue would stick. I am gonna do my other two MFTs when I get around to it. I used LenMars Moisture Cured Urethane over Shallac bc i felt it self leveled better.
Click to expand...

ericbuggeln said:
You can set up Qwas's system in under five minutes, Eric
Click to expand...

super quick drying urethane? 

[poke]

[popcorn]

Its not my intention to disrespect the product, so I'm not gonna post my opinions on it anymore.  I'm sure it could be great for other people's needs
 
Vindingo said:
Regardless of the German origin, its not the initial price, more like a bang per buck.  The XL (or domino 500) is expensive, but worth it IMO, a game changer.  Will a vac clamp change my world... don't know, but I doubt it.....  
Click to expand...

Vinny, I have one of those German vac systems and it is a game changer.  The time it saves is huge.  And it's not just the time, it all the aggravation of shuffling clamps.  It may not be as big of an impact as the XL in capabilities, it's the everyday time savings and easy of use. 
 
Vinny, it drys quicker here bc our air quality is nicer [scratch chin] Eric
 
For me the key to any vac sys is getting the work piece up and away from the bench in either a horizontal or vertical plane which is where the festool excells

it speeds up proccesing components and makes it more of a pleasant and ordered task
 
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