Rail Attachment for measuring device?

[JSands]

Does Festool make a rail guide attachment, which we can attach accessories to?

Love my TS75 and rails....but tired of drawing lines, and cutting to the lines on full size sheets.  Cumbersome, and the two steps is more potential for error...

A simple solution is a rail measuring guide, which attaches to the rail hump, then, on the other end, a parallel edge.   A measurement scale lies between, such as INcra's.   You cut a test piece, measure that piece, slide the measuring scale so it matches to the size of the cut, and secure the scale.  Now its fine tuned to your saw.    

Although I do own the parallel guides, and I do find them very useful at times, I don't like using them on my 118" rail making long rips.  The rail is flimsy enough without the added weight of the parelle guides.  I remove the rail from the sheets often.    So I was thinking of a simple measuring system that "sets" the rail x distance from the edge, clamp rail, then remove the measuring sticks.  Same premise as the parallel guides, except, easy on/off. 

Any flaws in the concept?  Or is one already made?

 

[Brice Burrell]

Do you mean something difference than the parallel guides?

 

[cdconey]

Would the edge guides from the LR32 SYS work for your needs?

 

[Corwin]

No, I do not see any flaws in your concept.  I ordered a bunch of Incra Incremental Track when I first started with my Festools (beginning of 2006) and it is a simple matter to use those as story sticks as you describe.  The Incra Shop Stop works very well for this application, as it has an adjustable leg -- the portion that actually makes contact with the end/edge of your material -- that can be adjusted as needed for the thinnest of material, yet extended to a more reasonable depth for other material.  Once initially calibrated, you can simply place your stops in position and use a square to align the Incra track perpendicular to the far edge (parallel with the guide rail).  So, as you can see, I've been there and done that very thing.  

To improve upon this technique, I later created a jig to mount the Incra tracks to that also included a piano hinge that connects the guide rail with the jig.  This way, I can handle the jig and guide rail as one unit when placing on sheet goods or removing between sheets.  I love my jig, as it works perfectly for my needs.  And it even has a few additional trick up its sleeve.  When the Festool parallel guide came out, I felt that their design would be rather problematic in use for the very reason that you describe.  If you are interested in further information on what I have done, feel free to PM me and I can provide you with all the info you will need.

 

[Ken Nagrod]

Corwin,

Can we have a picture of this jig you made?

 

[Corwin]

Here is an old photo of my parallel guide jig:

Note that it is only siting atop my conjoined MFTs for this photo.  It has one of my 1900mm guide rail mounted to it in this shot, but the base was sized to work well with either a 1900mm or 3000mm rail.

On Edit:  Oh, and you probably cannot see the jig's handles -- their invisible  [tongue]  Okay, photo was prior to their installation.  But you can figure where they are mounted...  The cutout area works well when lifting and then tipping the unit onto your workpiece -- without that cutout area, you would either need longer arms or elevator stockings.  Sorry.   [embarassed]

Also, in this shot it is sporting tracks with metric scales.  They can readily be swapped out for longer scales, or a set with equipped with Imperial scales.  I never added stops for the scales, but I use a 1-2-3 blocks to locate the scales when changing out.  Really simple.

Cut, say, a 2' wide piece with this setup and then reset the stops to, say, 2'-1-1/2".  Now you are all set to cut 1-1/2" strips.  Here's where that piano hinge come into its own...     [big grin]

 

[Ken Nagrod]

Am I recalling correctly, that you had posted that in an old thread on the parallel guides?

How much do you think the whole thing weighs?

Do you have to prop the material you're about to cut, up that high for the clearance of your jig?

Last question since I'm not sold just yet.  You really do find it easier to setup, use and adjust compared to the Festool parallel guides?

 

[Corwin]

Am I recalling correctly, that you had posted that in an old thread on the parallel guides?

Yep.

How much do you think the whole thing weighs?

Much less than I do.  Well, it isn't heavy at all.

Do you have to prop the material you're about to cut, up that high for the clearance of your jig?

No, as I mentioned earlier, the legs of the stops will adjust to accommodate thin material.  There is other material under that piece of ply that was there and wasn't removed prior to taking the photo.  My mistake in taking this shot.

Last question since I'm not sold just yet.  You really do find it easier to setup, use and adjust compared to the Festool parallel guides?

Well, in all fairness, I had built this long before the Festool parallel guides were on the market.  So, why on earth would I want to purchase the Festool accessory.  Maybe if I worked out in the field, but even then I doubt that I would use their version.  I truly believe that my design is far superior to theirs. 

 

[Eli]

I think I posted elsewhere that I use two adjustable squares for this. Granted, you're limited to about 24cm? with this method for repetitive rips.
Anything bigger I'm usually measuring and checking a couple times, or initial sheet breakdown, I'm okay to be out a mil or two.

 

[JSands]

I figured someone on the FOG did this already.... thx for running with this Corwin... brilliant jig, special pre-parallel guide era...

First, to clarify.... I have the parallel edge guides that run along the edge of the work piece.... IMO, too small and when you get towards the start and end of the cut, the saw can get a little shaky at times as there is less material to hold on to, specially when edge guide is on the cut side of the blade.  This assumes your goal is a perfect, final cut.  Next, parallel guides, love em, but not dangling off the 118" rail... 

So it's this "in-between" measurement system I was looking for, as I get sick of cutting to the line.  So my concept was, use the Incra rails like Corwin has, except simplify...  I wanted to attach the Incra rails atop the track on the Festool rail, this is surely square to the cut line.  This was my original qustion - is there something off-the-shelf for this, or will I have to design / build an attachment?  Anyway, you snap down over the track, now you are assured squareness to track... then on the stop end, put a right angle stop, maybe 6" long, this will quickly orient the track parallel to the work edge.  Clamp Festool rails, remove Incra measuring rails.  Quick n easy, quite accurate, and after the cut,  you can lift the rail without any measuring guides attached to it.  Oh yeah, this also takes into account blade thickness, like the parallel guides do, assuming you don't change the blade kerf, then like the parallel guides you must re calibrate...

The Incra rails have detents at 1/32"...which is nice, although I would prefer 1/64"....  does anyone else make a detent system like Incra?

 

[Corwin]

I figured someone on the FOG did this already.... thx for running with this Corwin... brilliant jig, special pre-parallel guide era...

Thank you for the nice complement!  [smile]

This was my original qustion - is there something off-the-shelf for this, or will I have to design / build an attachment?

I don't believe that there is anything that is off-the-shelf like this.  However, RonWen has been working on something;  More Parallel Guides

That may not be exactly what you are after, though, as that design also bolts to the rail's T-slot, rather than something you can readily slip over the raised "hat" portion of the rail, and slip off once positioned. 

Anyway, you snap down over the track, now you are assured squareness to track... then on the stop end, put a right angle stop, maybe 6" long, this will quickly orient the track parallel to the work edge.   Clamp Festool rails, remove Incra measuring rails.   Quick n easy, quite accurate, and after the cut,  you can lift the rail without any measuring guides attached to it.   Oh yeah, this also takes into account blade thickness, like the parallel guides do, assuming you don't change the blade kerf, then like the parallel guides you must re calibrate...

I'm confused as to the need to for something that squares BOTH with the rail AND with the edge of your workpiece as you mention in the first sentence above. 

If you look back at the first paragraph within my first response to this thread, I discuss using two Incra tracks loose on top of your material.  What I failed to mention was that once the tracks were located and clamped, you would set the guide rail against the ends of the Incra tracks.  So, you set the Incra tracks in place with the stops against the edge of the material using a square to align the track perpendicular to that edge and clamp the tracks in place, place the guide rail against the other ends of the Incra tracks, and, at that point either make your cut or clamp the rail in place so you can first remove the Incra tracks...  Anyway, the backside of the guide rail does work out well for this.  Sorry to repeat this if you had already understood what I mentioned earlier.

The Incra rails have detents at 1/32"...which is nice, although I would prefer 1/64"....  does anyone else make a detent system like Incra?

Not that I am aware of.  However, you could purchase two sets of the Incra ShopStops so you could calibrate one set 1/64" from the other set.  Or, just stick with the one set of stops and simply loosen the carriage and advance the adjusting screw a half turn to advance another 1/64", and later back off, say, a full turn and then advance back the 1/2 turn to get back to your original position.  Either method will work.

 

[tiralie]

So I was thinking of a simple measuring system that "sets" the rail x distance from the edge, clamp rail, then remove the measuring sticks.   Same premise as the parallel guides, except, easy on/off. 

Any flaws in the concept?  Or is one already made?

J:
If I understand you correctly, it seems like a version of the LR32 edge stop with a longer (hex?) aluminum rail with an imperial or metric rule might work for your approach.

 

[JSands]

Tim, cd, yes, that Festool component would grab the Festool rail, thx for reference.  But the measurement system is too crude........  but what is even better is the pix that Corwin forwarded of Rons home-brew attachment.... perfect.

Yep, Ron pretty much produced what I had in mind, and I think would make a great product for the LONG rails.  Ron attached to the T Slot taking advantage of the Festool spacing bars, vs. attaching to the "hat",  Ron has the better solution IMO....

As for the 6"  90 deg. at the stop end, the reason is for faster set-up  and and assurance you are square.  While the attachment to the rail assures the measuring rail is square to the Festool rail, the squareness of the stop will assure Festool rail parallelism to the cut you are measuring from.  A longer stop makes it more obvious when you are flush to the material, which should assure stop flushness at the other end.  The shorter the stop, the less confident you are of parallelism.    So Ron made the perfect attachment to the festool rail, (for ease of on/off,  small storage foot print, very durable)  and Corwin gained the benefits of the Incra detent measuring system.....  Add a longer stop for the Incra system, Bingo....

Corwin, I understand your explanation well, I was trying to streamline the product, making the "square assurance" components, part of the two measuring guides.

IMO, this makes a great product..... it is not as elegant as the parallel guides (PG) for cutting REPETITIVE, same-size strips...IMO, that is the where the PG's shine.  But you can do the same with this product, but a bit more time consuming, and if the strips are small, too much rail hanging over the cut edge during set up. 

  This product is ideal when you are constantly cutting different  sizes lengths from sheet goods, whereas currently,  measure and mark both ends,  draw a line, and try to drop the Festool rail on that line....then try to account for blade kerf, etc. etc.  lots of steps, each increases potential for significant error, and/or overall cutting tolerance....and of course time...  I would think, a product like this would put the Festool rail system closer to the benefits of a sliding table saw...  in other words, create a fence system that is used very similar to that of a TS, except you have two fences. 

OK Ron, you out there?    Interested in making a few more? 

 

[JSands]

Corwin, forgot to comment on the "1/64" - fine adjustment, using Incra screw on stop, which you mentioned above....  

The fine adjust on the incra stop, iMO, is not an "ideal" solution... although it certainly would work.   Main issue is...., it adds another potential source of error.  Now you must set the 1/32"measurement , then check, or set, for re-set the end screw to assure you have the correct measurement.    Instead of adding accuracy, it can potentially be the source of errors... this happened to me a few times as I use the incra miter HD on my TS with the flip stop you have pictured.   All sounds easy when we sit at pc and drink coffee, then go sweat in shop, noise, fatigue, etc. etc.  

Maybe a better solution is having a 1/64" metal shim that attaches to the stop (in a slot, or magnetic) is a better solution....   it remains captive on the STOP when not in use.  You over-shoot your measure by 1/32", then insert shim... if the shim is different color than stop, it will be very OBVIOUS to see its in place vs. seeing if a screw protrudes.  For most people, 1/32" is good enough.  But remember,  1/32" precision, will assure you about 1/16" accuracy in final cut... there is always some error tolerances you must account for, specially on long cuts.   Hence my goal to move to 1/64" accuracy of set-up, to assure about 1/32" final cut accuracy.  Not bad considering the relatively low cost tools and small storage footprint.  (vs. alternatives like sliding table saws)

 

[Corwin]

I've never experienced anything as much as a 1/16" error with my setups.  A 1/64" from time to time is more typical.  And, I suspect that most all of that error is within the saw and guide rail itself, rather than my setup, or simply a release of tension from within the wood itself.

Good luck in your quest to have the perfect system.  Hope I've been of some help.  [smile]

 

[RONWEN]

Tim, cd, yes, that Festool component would grab the Festool rail, thx for reference.   But the measurement system is too crude........  but what is even better is the pix that Corwin forwarded of Rons home-brew attachment.... perfect.

Yep, Ron pretty much produced what I had in mind, and I think would make a great product for the LONG rails.  Ron attached to the T Slot taking advantage of the Festool spacing bars, vs. attaching to the "hat",  Ron has the better solution IMO....

As for the 6"  90 deg. at the stop end, the reason is for faster set-up  and and assurance you are square.  While the attachment to the rail assures the measuring rail is square to the Festool rail, the squareness of the stop will assure Festool rail parallelism to the cut you are measuring from.   A longer stop makes it more obvious when you are flush to the material, which should assure stop flushness at the other end.   The shorter the stop, the less confident you are of parallelism.    So Ron made the perfect attachment to the festool rail, (for ease of on/off,  small storage foot print, very durable)  and Corwin gained the benefits of the Incra detent measuring system.....  Add a longer stop for the Incra system, Bingo....

Corwin, I understand your explanation well, I was trying to streamline the product, making the "square assurance" components, part of the two measuring guides.

IMO, this makes a great product..... it is not as elegant as the parallel guides (PG) for cutting REPETITIVE, same-size strips...IMO, that is the where the PG's shine.   But you can do the same with this product, but a bit more time consuming, and if the strips are small, too much rail hanging over the cut edge during set up. 

  This product is ideal when you are constantly cutting different  sizes lengths from sheet goods, whereas currently,  measure and mark both ends,  draw a line, and try to drop the Festool rail on that line....then try to account for blade kerf, etc. etc.  lots of steps, each increases potential for significant error, and/or overall cutting tolerance....and of course time...  I would think, a product like this would put the Festool rail system closer to the benefits of a sliding table saw...   in other words, create a fence system that is used very similar to that of a TS, except you have two fences.   

OK Ron, you out there?    Interested in making a few more? 

Yes.  [unsure]  I want to refine it some more for workpieces narrower than the rail but I haven't spent any time on it -- I've been playing with the Domino/LR32 bracket.  And, my wife has been keeping me busy with honey-do's.

 

[JSands]

It looks from the pix of yours, you can set it anywhere in the rail, right?  That is what I thought, and yes, that would be ideal....

I assume you are seating your device into the festool recess, where the rail connectors go, right?

When reading my wish list above, is this what your tweaked product would be like?

If so, I am interested, maybe some others might like a pair also...

keep us posted....

 

[RONWEN]

It looks from the pix of yours, you can set it anywhere in the rail, right?   That is what I thought, and yes, that would be ideal....

I assume you are seating your device into the festool recess, where the rail connectors go, right?

When reading my wish list above, is this what your tweaked product would be like?

If so, I am interested, maybe some others might like a pair also...

keep us posted....

Yes, I use the Festool rail connectors for attachment.

 

[tiralie]

Hence my goal to move to 1/64" accuracy of set-up, to assure about 1/32" final cut accuracy.  Not bad considering the relatively low cost tools and small storage footprint.  (vs. alternatives like sliding table saws)

J;
Just curious, I am interested in your approach here, what are you making or working with that you need that kind of accuracy?
As I understand it for this application you are measuring from the right so the off cut is under the rail, and you have to adjust for the blade kerf. Is that correct?
Tim

 

[JSands]

Yes, useful piece is to the right of the blade....

accuracy is not always required for the varied work I do, but sometimes when fitting panels I want a snug fit....

I think you are confusing what I refer to as accuracy...  the accuracy of set-up is only as strong as its weakest link...with the rail system, we have an 8ft span to get right....

with a TS and a fence, there is only one distance that matters, fence-to-front of blade.    Much easier task.

The greater the accuracy of the two measuring sticks mentioned above,  the greater accuracy of the final cut. 

This thread made me think of a simpler approach...when I have time, I will try to build one and post pix.