random orbit sanders........which one for general use?

[Brice Burrell]

I do some exterior painting jobs on occasion, usually jobs that I've done some repair work. I let the guys use the ETS125 sanders I have to sand filler or feather out paint. They like the them but these guys aren't exactly sanding gurus so they might be just as happy with a lower quality sander. Another thing that I tend to do a lot is sand body filler (Bondo) that we use to fill screw holes in Azek (PVC sheets and trim boards). We done the entire facades of buildings out Azek, I've had guys running two ETS125s all day long sanding filler on these jobs. The lack of vibration really helped the hands after a day of sanding.

I do think the ETS125 would be nicer with a little more power. It's definitely not going to remove material fast. It doesn't take a lot of pressure to stop the rotation of the pad. This is a finish sander that can do light duty as a painting prep tool. I get out the RO125 for the tough jobs. I like it a finish sander for woodworking too, again, not aggressive but for sanding stock that is already flat and between coats of finish it's a very nice sander.       

 

[WarnerConstCo.]

Bondo in azek for filling nail holes and then sanding?

Are you painting it?

You use the smooth side of the trim boards then?

I am a bit confused, and a bit off topic, oops.

I just leave the trim boards nailed up with SS finish nails and call it good.

I have not found a good product to fill the nail holes.  I am not gling to use screws all over and then plug, too much work off of laders.

 

[peter halle]

A product for filling holes if you are leaving Azek (cellular PVC) the natural finish is Bond n' Fill.  Not cheap.  Need to read the instructions.  Great product.

Peter

 

[Brice Burrell]

Bondo in azek for filling nail holes and then sanding?

Are you painting it?

You use the smooth side of the trim boards then?

I am a bit confused, and a bit off topic, oops.

I just leave the trim boards nailed up with SS finish nails and call it good.

I have not found a good product to fill the nail holes.  I am not gling to use screws all over and then plug, too much work off of laders.

I always encourage the clients to paint Azek, yes, even if it's white. I think it makes for a better finished product. I always use SS screws because they really hold up to all the expansion and contraction. The last time I talked to the area Azek rep he said they aren't recommending finish nails anymore. I never use the wodd grain side, it's just plain ugly.

Peter, I've used Bond n' Fill before, not a great product in opinion. Its hard to sand and then the sanded areas have less of a sheen that is noticeable. It works it's just my first choice. About a year ago a large supplier that sells to a number of lumber yards in my area stopped carrying Bond n' Fill because they kept getting burned on the very short shelf life of the product. I've heard they stop making it recently because of this, don't knew if this is true or not.

 

[WarnerConstCo.]

The paint for that stuff is pricey too.

That is some double expensive materials there.

Have you seen the new IQ trim?  Lots of colors avialble, composite material, pretty nice.

Ok, before I get yelled at, what were we talking about here?

Sanders for paint prep.

RAS 115, RO125, DX93.  In that order, perfect for most applications.  I bought the ETS125 just because it was pretty cheap for one of thier tools.
Have not hade the need to use it much, nice to use though.

 

[rex]

I use Bondo alot too to fill in holes in Azek and similar cellular PVC products that I install. I also use it to fill rot in exterior wood,(using Minwax wood hardener first to coat the rotted wood fibers).  I also always paint the PVC after installation. I have tried not painting it, but if the joints are filled with white caulk, it always ages badly and looks dirty after a few years. And the nails holes are always a problem trying to fill to look good without painting over them. I am on a job now doing alot of wood restoration and replacement........just ordered a batch of Advanced Repair Technology elastomeric epoxy. Looks promising, as it molds easily without slumping and stays flexible unlike bondo that gets too rigid for large repairs. Didnt try it yet because of all the rain weve been getting, but tommorrow looks clear. :-X

Off topic..........LOL.........I am going to Woodcraft again today to get some Euro hinges for another job and will look at the Rotex 125 with a dust extractor (package) and test it. Im thinking it will fit my needs better than the ETS 150. Maybe once I get that model,  the ETS 150 will be next in the future...............then the ETS 125?   

 

[WarnerConstCo.]

See, I cant understand installing a product like azek and then painting it.  You just installed an expensive low/no maintanence product and made it a

maitanence issue.  If you want to paint a product that will hold up nearly as well as azek but, for about 25% of the cost install Miratec.

To me, azek then paint makes no sense.

 

[rex]

actually most of the time I use Azek it is in a repair situation, where I am removing old rotted trim and replacing it with Azek or something similar. Most of the time the homes are  painted  with colors, not white. So I have to  paint it when I install it to match the trim color. The exceptions are when the paint trim color is too dark. Then I avoid the Azek because of expansion issues due to the dark color.  The current job Im on is a chocolate brown trim color with a stone and brick house. I am using western red cedar, mahogony, and spanish cedar for my repairs instead of Azek.

 

[WarnerConstCo.]

I'm telling you to check out Miratec.  Offered in 3/4" and 1" boards, 16' lengths.  1x6 is about 16 bucks.

25 year rot and decay, one side smooth, one side looks like cedar.

My choice when it has to be painted.

Azek is just for white for me.

 

[peter halle]

I have no problem using Azek or a comparable cellular PVC product for trim and painting.  Most of my uses are also replacing rotten trim that needs to be painted to match.  The biggest problem with paint failure is moisture absorption in the material.  Paint on the PVC products will last far longer than wood.  In my area most of the trim that I replace is Douglas Fir.  The PVC product is cheaper for me than the comparable Doug Fir and won't absorb water.

For darker painting situations there is an alternative.  I'm sorry that I don't have the name.  The product has actually be tested in Phoenix, AZ painted a dark color.  The manufacturer is actually in Phoenix.  I'll try to remember the name and post later.

Bond and Fill does have a short shelf life - I learned the hard way.  I now use the 2 tube small tube system.  I have had success with it - but I will not buy a case at a time unless I have a job where I can charge the entire cost off at once - if it lasts past the end of the job it's profit. I didn't find it hard to sand with the Rotex 150.  Didn't like the smell - oh well at the end of the day I might be odiforous also.

Just my thought and experiences.

Peter

 

[rex]

somehow the original discussion about sanders took a detour.LOL I checked out the Miratec website, and it looks like good stuff. I am always open to new products and will try anything that works well.  I just tried a new product in my area that i found out about at my local sawmill.  It is called Thermo-treated lumber. Comes in poplar and ash species. It is baked in an oven to about 400 degrees( i think) with all the oxygen removed from the oven. This creates a vacuum while it is cooked and it hardens all the starches in the wood.  Turns it a deep brown color all the way through. It is moisture resistant and  rot proof. Has a 25 year warranty also. No chemical treatment is involved. Penn State University has been studying it for awhile now and backs it durability. The sawmill that I buy it from has it in the rough or they surface it for you. Comes in 4/4 and 8/4 thicknesses.  Used it once so far and probably will use it again in the future if Cedar prices keep going up like they have been lately.

Anyway.........Im going to ask my lumber yard guy if he can get some Miratec in for me to try.  Didnt make it to Woodcraft today like I thought I might to try out the Rotex sanders.  This week hopefully(maybe if it rains one day I'll get some free time)

 

[WarnerConstCo.]

It did take a detour.

Just trying to pass along a pretty good product that does not have the sting of azek, especially if you have to paint it anyways.

The ets 125 is a nice light wieght sander, I fail to use it very much doing paint prep work outside.

 

[Brice Burrell]

Rex, I think your it's a good idea to test drive the Rotex sanders. There pretty big and can be a bit unwieldy for some users and you should put your hands on the two different sizes to see what fits best.

Warning off topic:
And now to continue the detour. I've replace a fair amount of bad Miratec in the last few years. The products needs to be installed exactly to the manufactures specifications to not void the warranty and that is an involved process. Most of the Miratec I've replaced was installed incorrectly, without the cut ends primed, too close to grade or both. Another problem is if the surface gets damaged (scratched) moisture gets in, the paint peels and the piece starts to fail.

I don't sell Azek to my clients as a maintenance free product, I sell it as a rot free product. Besides, Azek says their product holds paint much better that wood because it doesn't absorb moisture and that's what causes paint to fail.

Rex, I remember reading about the thermo-treated lumber over on JLC, could have been you that posted it. Never seen it but it sound good. 

 

[WarnerConstCo.]

Except for the butt-ton of expansion.

Seems kind of silly when someone can't prime the ends of a board, huh?

 

[Jerry Work]

Hi Rex,

I noticed your comment about the ETS125 "....seemed to bog down a bit under pressure....  Pressure is not required for any of the Festool sanders, especially the ETS units.  The weight of the sander and the suction action from the dust collection are all that is needed.  Pushing down or tipping the sander will only result in swirl marks that are harder to remove with the next finer grit.  If you try to use most any RO sander without dust extraction the pad will be lifted off the work piece by a small cone of saw dust that naturally forms in the center.  The Festool units with the center hole in the paper will do better in this regard, but will only really perform up to their reputation when used with proper dust collection.  The combination of sanding off dried paint and fine sanding cab parts for finishing sounds like a perfect fit for the RO series.  I build fine furniture and use the RO150 a lot and really like the finish I can achieve on most woods.  Some refer to a learning curve, but I think the real key is to let the sander do the work.  If it would be helpful you can download for free a manual I wrote for Festool on the characteristics of each of their sanders.  It is available both on the Festool USA web site or mine, http://jerrywork.com.  You may find answers to many of your questions there.  Hope this helps.

Jerry

I am a contractor and alot of my work involves painting,  exterior wood rot  repair, and general finish carpentry. I currently have a 15 year old Bosch 3283 that worked very nicely over the years as an intermediate type ROS. It was aggressive enough to sand old paint off and level off wood splices and joints, yet gentle enough with variable speed to fine sand cabinet parts for finishing.  Trouble is, its wearing out and needs replacement soon.

Been researching Festool and went to Woodcraft to test drive the ETS 125 and ETS 150/3. I was very impressed by the smoothness compared to my Bosch.  The ETS 125 seemed to bog down a bit under pressure, but the ETS 150/3 handled the pressure better. I like the pistol grip on the 150/3 alot too, since my Bosch was similar and after 15 years of using it , I  like the feel of that type sander better than a palm grip. .
I havent tried the RO 125 or RO 150 yet simply because the price scared me a little ;D but defintely want to test drive them on my next trip there.
  My question is.........out of the four sanders I mentioned above, which one would be my best choice as a good all around performer? I think I can rule out the ETS 125 for lack of power,as I think it a better sander for finishing only.  I need a slightly more aggressive sander than  it offers. 

 

[bill-e]

Having the RO125, ES125 and the ETS150/5 I'd go with the 150/5 if I could have only 1.

 

[Bob Marino]

As far as I know the there is no dust bag for the Rotex sanders.
[/quote]

That's correct - and for a good reason. The RO's have powerful motors, can do lots of stock removal - very fast and the bags would fill up too quickly.

  Bob

 

[AlexThePalex]

That's correct - and for a good reason. The RO's have powerful motors, can do lots of stock removal - very fast and the bags would fill up too quickly.

;D Correct. I was sanding down some door trim yesterday with 60 grit Cristal. Plugged the power cord in the CTL and started working, forgetting to connect the hose. AAARGH! Dust all over the place.  : 

 

[Bob Marino]

I am a contractor and alot of my work involves painting,  exterior wood rot  repair, and general finish carpentry. I currently have a 15 year old Bosch 3283 that worked very nicely over the years as an intermediate type ROS.  

Rex, judging your needs, I'd say the Rotex is the way to go. Whether that's the 150 or the 125 is up to yourself. The 150 is heavier but will cover more area in the same time. The 125 on the other hand is easier to handle, less tiring and will do smaller objects easier than the 150.

I got the RO150, the Deltex DX93 and the RTS400. 95% of the work I do with them is paint prep and I do a lot of it lately. I'm not even a pro, but because of my upbringing in a body shop I do know how to work like a pro. People keep asking me to do jobs for them, so that most of my free time goes into painting lately.
 
The Rotex is much more of an all-rounder than the ETS150. The ETS is much lighter than the Rotex so if you're only working on cabinets/furniture, the ETS might be the sander of your choice. But if you need to work on old house trim, with weathered layers of paint, the Rotex is of much more use than the ETS. The Rotex' rotational setting compared with the higher power of the motor will make short work of any uneven surface. That also includes leveling out walls or floors. It will take you A LOT longer with the ETS to get the same result. And, when you need a good finish, the Rotex will also do this for you. You'll have to put in a bit more effort and care than with the ETS, but you will succeed.

Some people say that the Rotex is less suited as a finish sander. I don't understand this. I got no problem getting a very fine finish with it. People say it's also tiring and difficult to control. I don't have that problem either. I think I might a tiny bit stronger than the average bloke, so maybe that explains it, but I also got no problem at all working with it on ladders or using it above my head for longer times.

rex, if you're professional contractor, don't shy away from getting good tools. Don't scare away from the price of a Rotex. You'll get a lot of years of use out it, so the cost per year will be low. Also, this machine will make you do the job twice as fast as you're used to with the Bosch. I know because I had a similar sander as your Bosch before I bought my Rotex. It's a HUGE difference. And time is money. The Rotex will save you time so you can do more jobs and make more money in the same time as before.

Also, get the Deltex next to the Rotex. Rotex+Deltex = every job in the house you can do, with great efficieny. Oh, and get a CT Mini vac. It's a crime to sand without dust extraction. ;D If you think that's too expensive, get a second hand house vac for 20 dollar. Even that is A LOT better than a stupid (pardon my French) dustbag.

Btw, about a dustbag, after reading this thread I tried to fit the dustbag of my RTS to the Rotex, it doesn't fit right away but if you would be willing to make a cut here and there it can work. The RTS has the same dustbag as the ETS. But then again, just get a vac, you're a professional after all.  8)

 I think Alex summed it up well here. I like the idea of the RO and the Deltex, particularly for your applications. Between the 2 of them, there isn't much that can't be handled. BUT, do as Brice suggested and try them both (RO 150 and RO 125) to see which one feels more comfortable in your hands.

Bob

 

[AlexThePalex]

Aye, I'm in a bit of a dilemma here now. I got to sand some drywall. My Rotex would make a quick job out of it, but I'm not sure I want to spoil the machine with it. Gypsum dust is much worse for a tool than wood or paint dust.

Anybody got any experience with using the Rotex on drywall?