Rationale for Festool Guide Rail pricing

DeformedTree said:
guitarchitect said:
I don't think there's enough appreciation, by customers in general, about the implications of high quality control.

There isn't much appreciation by the bulk of people what it takes to make anything.  People just think the stuff is magically made some place and tend to only think of raw material cost (maybe) and not much more. It's often very hard for folks to understand that to make something low price, you have to spend a vast amount of money designing it, the manufacturing methods, machines, etc to get there.  This is why Value Engineering exist and why someone can justify spending an entire year to save 1 cent from the cost of a product. It may be only 1 cent, but if the manufacture uses 2 million of them a year, that person just paid for their existence that year.  People tend to think cars are expensive but don't understand that the manufacture prices the parts down to the 1/100th of a cent.  .0001 Dollars sounds insane, but again if you use say 4 of something in a car, and you make 4 models of car that sell 250,000 units a year, that is 4 million parts, x 6 year run of production so thats 24,000,000 units.  Or 2,400 dollars.  That sort of thing adds up, that 1/100th of a cent might have just been a tiny amount of metal or plastic trimmed off.  Few products can justify that sort of development money, thus they cost more on the production side.  Festool isn't that big of a company. They can't have someone spend 1 year working to save a few bucks on something, it will never pay for that effort.  So things are going to be much more expensive than they could be on a much higher volume company.

If people say what goes in to making most products, more importantly on the engineering/manufacturing engineering side people would never think things are expensive.  You get into seeing the real world of developing cars you would think a basic econobox would cost a million bucks to buy.

When I design stuff, the reality is if I spend even a few more hours on something, I can make it a bit cheaper. But that time cost money, and well, time.  You can only optimize stuff so far or you never get the cost back.  Volumes matter to, I make stuff that will almost all be machined. It's the cheapest method for what I make due to volume, there is no tooling, and bend/weld will cost a ton in labor (plus be a bad part).  The block of metal sounds expensive, and the machine that carves it is expensive, and they person who programs it isn't cheap.  But once ready, the price keeps going down with everyone made.    Same for any company.  They have to assume how many they will make, factor it into their plans and hope it works.

The other factor people forget is the price of any product isn't representing the price to make that particular product.  It's a company as a whole paying the bills.  Every product they loose money on has to be paid for by one that makes money.  Back to car industry.  They loose money on everyone sold on the low end cars.  The high end stuff has to pay for the losses on the low end ones.  But bigger picture different things get spread across everything.  A cheap econobox offsets CAFE for the big expensive car.

Running an extrusion, cutting it, silkscreen and sticking some stuff on a rail isn't costing them much at all. The biggest rails probably cost them a couple dollars, maybe 20 bucks to make.  But it's steady money to be had.  It's an essential part of the system, you aren't going to sell them with a low margin.  Those rails need to cover prices of other parts of Festool that don't pour in money.

Unless people stop buying, they will carry on as is.  They are not a community owned non-profit co-op.

Festool has a bit of a prestige factor to it.  Like BMW or Apple, you pay for the name too.  In theory, with all the factors above, the Festool rails should price in the same range as Bosch and Mafell who also make their rails to the same tolerances. 

Festool is the primary brand featured in “This Old House”, and other home building shows.  Festool is the BMW of the tool world. 

You do pay a a bit of premium for the Festool brand name. 
 
T. Ernsberger said:
The quality will not be the same as the Festool but if that doesn’t matter to you, go for it.

That is very subjective.
 
I respectfully disagree that quality is has to be subjective. It can be but not necessarily so.  I am a Mech engineer and have the accuracy bug. So I have surface plates and dial indicators and so on and check my tools out of curiosity. yea I am that guy. I frequently check the run out of bearing and the flatness of surfaces against my references. Which I have checked and calibrated frequently so I can comply with work requirements.  I have found my festool tools to be extremely well made and seem to hit a quite high standard. I have several different styles of track, the old and the new versions, as well as rail from makita. Out of curiosity I have checked them with an optical  target sled and have been pleasantly surprised. Considering they are formed from extrusions I am quite pleased. There are user  short comings I think are often overlooked. For example, the condition of the material being cut in terms of debris  and the flatness of the reference surface are but a few. These will have significant impact on the nature of the cut. As well as uneven pressure on the saw of router yielding a perceptible deflection of cut. I think it should be noted these are not tools without technique. Without proper technique these tools will not perform to the standard expected. This does require thoughtfulness if one to achieve the best results.
 
So [member=2242]tallgrass[/member] is your conclusion is that Makita rails and Festool rails have the same level of accuracy?
 
tallgrass said:
I respectfully disagree that quality is has to be subjective. It can be but not necessarily so.  I am a Mech engineer and have the accuracy bug. So I have surface plates and dial indicators and so on and check my tools out of curiosity. yea I am that guy. I frequently check the run out of bearing and the flatness of surfaces against my references. Which I have checked and calibrated frequently so I can comply with work requirements.  I have found my festool tools to be extremely well made and seem to hit a quite high standard. I have several different styles of track, the old and the new versions, as well as rail from makita. Out of curiosity I have checked them with an optical  target sled and have been pleasantly surprised. Considering they are formed from extrusions I am quite pleased. There are user  short comings I think are often overlooked. For example, the condition of the material being cut in terms of debris  and the flatness of the reference surface are but a few. These will have significant impact on the nature of the cut. As well as uneven pressure on the saw of router yielding a perceptible deflection of cut. I think it should be noted these are not tools without technique. Without proper technique these tools will not perform to the standard expected. This does require thoughtfulness if one to achieve the best results.

Makita can have good batches of tracks.  Many users have indicated having to make several exchanges to get a trouble free rail.  You might find yourself trading several rails to get one that isn’t warped.
 
glass1 said:
Festool rails are better. The longer the more better. I can live with the short makitas for the price. If money is no object go festool as they are stiffer. Makitas slot for slop adjust tends to be narrower slightly making joining the brands a pain. I have both.

Actually Mafell/Bosch rails are the better. 😁. Also Mafell makes a better track saw. No regrets making the switch to Mafell saws with Mafell/Bosch Rails. I have some Festool Rails still hanging on my wall of my shop.  I hung them and haven’t taken them down since. . 
 
the connection method is very nice but I am not sure about Better. I am a Mech engineer and have a sickness for accuracy. I have surface plates and dial indicators that I use to check bearing run out and "flatness" of various tool surfaces. Yes I am that guy who checks out the run out on a new router.

When it comes to the rails I have a ton of festool rails, old and new profiles. I have makita and I also have one Bosch.  I have checked them optically with a sled and as far as "straightness", the festool rails were quite good, as were the makita rails. The bosch was no more accurate in terms of straightness but had more "run out" in the z axis.  So I am not sure if "Better" works. different maybe. I run lots of tools on these rails and machine different mounting plates to use them on . . With in the realm of extrusions they are quite good. I do not think the "accuracy" of Bosch and Mafell are "better" If so how are you measuring this? The examples I have seen seem to be withing an expected variation of quality extrusion. I am not sure greater accuracy would even be useful. I have re-machined rails for tight tolerance work and the improvement was not notable. What does matter is the condition of the surface the rail is placed on. This is do to the conforming nature of these rails. All of them. Mafell makes a good saw. Not saying they do not. however I would be surprised if the composite nature of their rail was able to outperform monolithic rails that do not suffer from the issues that arise form such construction.  I used a autocollimator that is used for  surface plate calibration. If you are curious.

The price is not out of line.  I hear lots of complaints about the horrors of cheap tools. I also hear complaints on the expense of good tools. the choice is all yours . you are free to choose which group to choose from and which one to complain about. :)
 
tallgrass said:
I respectfully disagree that quality is has to be subjective. It can be but not necessarily so.  I am a Mech engineer and have the accuracy bug. So I have surface plates and dial indicators and so on and check my tools out of curiosity. yea I am that guy. I frequently check the run out of bearing and the flatness of surfaces against my references. Which I have checked and calibrated frequently so I can comply with work requirements.  I have found my festool tools to be extremely well made and seem to hit a quite high standard. I have several different styles of track, the old and the new versions, as well as rail from makita. Out of curiosity I have checked them with an optical  target sled and have been pleasantly surprised. Considering they are formed from extrusions I am quite pleased. There are user  short comings I think are often overlooked. For example, the condition of the material being cut in terms of debris  and the flatness of the reference surface are but a few. These will have significant impact on the nature of the cut. As well as uneven pressure on the saw of router yielding a perceptible deflection of cut. I think it should be noted these are not tools without technique. Without proper technique these tools will not perform to the standard expected. This does require thoughtfulness if one to achieve the best results.

The point was that unless someone can back up that Festool rails are superior (or that Makita ones are inferior) it is just an unsubstantiated opinion. You have done so which counters [member=4687]glass1[/member] subjective opinion.
 
T. Ernsberger said:
glass1 said:
Festool rails are better. The longer the more better. I can live with the short makitas for the price. If money is no object go festool as they are stiffer. Makitas slot for slop adjust tends to be narrower slightly making joining the brands a pain. I have both.

Actually Mafell/Bosch rails are the better. 😁. Also Mafell makes a better track saw. No regrets making the switch to Mafell saws with Mafell/Bosch Rails. I have some Festool Rails still hanging on my wall of my shop.  I hung them and haven’t taken them down since. .

I have both and it is my opinion that Mafell/Bosch rails are superior in every way except for durability. I have not had any problems, but the possibility is there because they are not as heavy duty as the Festool rails. How this plays out over the life of the rail I don't know. I am two years in and have not had any problems so maybe their lighter and smaller design is just as durable as Festool's.
 
Another thing that no one mentioned yet is that Makita rails are not anodized and may leave marks on certain woods.

I have both Festool and Makita rails and never experienced any marring, but others have. Also, I haven't had any issues connecting Festool and Makita rails together.
 
serge0n said:
Another thing that no one mentioned yet is that Makita rails are not anodized and may leave marks on certain woods.
Are you sure? Perhaps the quality of anodizing is poor?
 
this is easy to test. I guess I have to break out my surface condition crud. Aluminum oxide is vastly harder than regular aluminum. I will say my makita rails are holding up beautifully.  I still have a hard time with the comment that the mafell and bosch are superior in every way. The connection method is convenient but that is one criteria and not necessarily a driving one. I do not know how many thousand linear feet of festool track there is in the world, but all of the stuff I have is pretty much dead on. Ass far as accuracy goes I have found the composite track not to be as accurate, I stack this up to the means of manufacture and the composite nature of its construction. So it can not be superior in every way. Granted there may be more exhaustive means of testing, than are available to me. I am limited to autocollimattion and referencing surface plate interrogation. Now please understand I understand the value of statistical sample size and that my sampling is limited. As a matter of definition I would argue that monolithic construction is inherently more stable and possibly more accurate than a composite construction, especially when plastics are involved. As for the price, I would suggest that reflects the ecosystem of the festool price structure. To argue that they are priced excessively assume to understand all of the costs involved. I would rather them stay in business and make lots of money. This goes for their distributors. I wonder how many in this forum treat their own value and product so miserly? The rail with be the cheapest thing that you buy that you use. If you choose to use their track. Wait, if festool track is expensive the Mafell track is eye watering. From what I have seen on their pricing.
 
what I am referring to is the plastic component at the ends of the rail. In my example It caused the ends of the rail to deflect upward. This could be corrected. Again this is why I mention the nature of my sample size. Also I have said I like all of these rail products. What I as suggesting the concept of best is hard to deal with without some kind of data. I would also suggest that these products are of sufficient quality that the operator may be the largest factor in substandard cut quality.  Early on in festool time I had shipping damaged rails, of the old design. After this is started checking my rails to check for shipping damage. This was back when festool was basically mail order and there was no real dealer network. I have easily a 10 rails. The only ones that were out of "spec", were so due to shipping issues. We can argue about that they should be shipped in a more robust fashion. I do think that people are far to cavalier with their handling of these rails and the condition that of the cut surface has on the the cut quality.  I do wonder how much of the difficulties with the rails are well meaning oversights of best practices techniques and QAQC in the rail manufacture. I still think the cost is not out of line. I will also admit that my rails are in a hybrid condition, meaning I use makita cut strips and not the festool ones.
 
tallgrass said:
what I am referring to is the plastic component at the ends of the rail. In my example It caused the ends of the rail to deflect upward. This could be corrected. Again this is why I mention the nature of my sample size. Also I have said I like all of these rail products. What I as suggesting the concept of best is hard to deal with without some kind of data. I would also suggest that these products are of sufficient quality that the operator may be the largest factor in substandard cut quality.  Early on in festool time I had shipping damaged rails, of the old design. After this is started checking my rails to check for shipping damage. This was back when festool was basically mail order and there was no real dealer network. I have easily a 10 rails. The only ones that were out of "spec", were so due to shipping issues. We can argue about that they should be shipped in a more robust fashion. I do think that people are far to cavalier with their handling of these rails and the condition that of the cut surface has on the the cut quality.  I do wonder how much of the difficulties with the rails are well meaning oversights of best practices techniques and QAQC in the rail manufacture. I still think the cost is not out of line. I will also admit that my rails are in a hybrid condition, meaning I use makita cut strips and not the festool ones.

The price issues is probably a bigger issue in Canada where we get tariff-ed to death and beyond.  If we were paying the same price as the US it would be an easier pill to swallow.
 
it is amazing how often our government overlords screw things up for the little people.
 
Laminator said:
What is "composit" nature referring to the bosch rails?
tallgrass said:
what I am referring to is the plastic component at the ends of the rail. In my example It caused the ends of the rail to deflect upward.
Those are just end plugs, similar to Festool hose deflector. You remove them if you connect Bosch/Mafell rails. How do they cause the rail to deflect upward?
 
I keep them in my bosch rail. I find excessive snagging with them out.  It is an interesting question. I tested the rail with the festool deflector and it did not change the rail. The fit of mine is fairly loose in all of my rails. Again samples of one are problematic [blink].  I tested the bosch rail with and without the plugs. With out the plugs the deflection was not as severe. This may be to the artifact of their long term being in place. The only thing that comes to mind is that they induce excessive pressure causing some deflection. This is extremely minimal. This may be a variable that is specific to the particular plastic "plugs " you have with the specific rail you have. I think I have said in this post that all of these rails seem to live withing what would be expected from quality extrusions. Hence my difficulty with the idea of better being empirical, as the well as the idea of quality being relative.
 
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