Repairing Exterior Door Joints

[tDot]

I just received a call from my painter, he's working on a high end home that has a 40" wide x 1-3/4" front door.  The door is only 5 years old, but he has been asked to repair the cracks that have developed in the joints between the rails and styles.  He apparently has already attempted this 5 times, using several types of filler, from regular spackle to autobody filler.  Each repair has cracked and apparently they crack within a day after the door being repainted.  The paint is an extremely high sheen black autobody paint, so it's showing every imperfection.

He has asked that I screw the joint back together.  I've told him he's crazy.  The rail and styles are both about 7" Wide, so I would either have to use a fairly long screw from the edge, or pocket screws, through the face, and fill the resulting damage.  I haven't been by to look at the door yet.  My concern is that the original glue has probably failed.  Would thin Cyanacrolite glue and screws fix this problem?  Is there something else that I could offer to the client?  I dont usually offer solutions to clients unless I'm very certain that they will work, and I'm just not sure what would help in this situation.

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated!!!

 

[Guy Ashley]

Hi tDot

Do you know what timber the door is, is the door solid timber or engineered and veneered, the client might be able to tell you if they purchased it.

Are the joints traditional through mortice and tenons or is this an engineered door with just scribe joints.

If it is a catastrophic glue failure then you are going to have problems.

If you undertake to repair it and it keeps falling apart due to poor initial construction then the client may come back and say its falling apart because you haven't repaired it properly.

If its all that bad then a replacement door may be the way to go. To reglue it properly would entail breaking the joints apart cleaning them, regluing with I would suggest Cascamite, reassembly, etc, which when your time is calculated then it is probably better to get a new door.

Guy

 

[Tim Sproul]

The paint is an extremely high sheen black autobody paint, so it's showing every imperfection.

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated!!!

Tell the homeowner they should purchase a steel or fiberglass door if that is the appearance they want.  Wood moves.

 

[Rob-GB]

I'm with Guy on this one. By the sound of it it is one of those dowelled constructions that are cheap to produce but not good for long service.
You could try counter boring and clearance piloting through the stiles, while the door is cramped up tight, but somehow I don't see this as a long term fix.
Disassembling the door etc is a time consuming job too, and often causes more damage to be repaired.

Try offering the client a new better made door, my previous post Tenons may be of interest.

Tim, yes wood moves but a correctly made door will not open at the joints due to movement, it is far more likely that the stiles of a door will shrink back exposing the wedges than shrink back from the rail joint edge. I would never offer GRP or Metal or uPVC doors to my clients, as I don't make them ;D and think that well made timber doors will even outlast those materials if looked after. The client may need a bit of educating in the ways of timber is all.

Rob.

 

[Holzhacker]

This sounds like a typical nightmare job. Glue and or joint failure are the likely problems. You'd have to take an initial look at the door to decide whether repair is a feasible option.
40x1 3/4 is a heavy door regardless of overall type. If original construction was poor or its various forms of chip board with a nice veneer, repair may not be the best option. Glue might not be enough for the weight and screws might not have enough of anything to bite into. If it is a wood door, cleaning joints, pulling it apart a bit, re-gluing and adding some screws works well. I've done it many times on old wood and glass panel doors.
I'd want to take a look and decide. I'd also want to feel extremely confident about the repair option in order to do it. If the joints open again, it won't be the painters phone ringing.
Another thing to look at is hinges. How tall is the door, 3 or 4 hinges. On that heavy off a door I'd want to see 4 hinges. Which joints are pulling apart, all, hinge side or lock side?.
I added a small roller wheel to an old large door once. Door had to stay and wasn't going to last without some sort of help. Installed a small bracket with a small wheel on the interior side of the door at the lock end. Barely noticeable but gave the door support.

 

[spikfot]

If the glue has truly failed in the tenons a heavy door like that will have most likely fallen out of square. Check this first. If someone has been hacking on it with a planer or belt sander to make it close properly, correcting the tenons/ re-squaring the doors will open a can o' worms- a can that would need to be opened anyway *as long as the client is prepared to pay for corrections*.

 

[tjbnwi]

I had to repair a cherry 3/0 door that someone "opened" with their foot. Lots of glue, drill, counter bore and use these;

http://www.grkfasteners.com/en/RSS_1_2_information.htm

I used some that were 14" long, felt better predrilling. They claim you do not have to. I know where the cracks are and cannot find them.

Tom

 

[tDot]

I had some time to look at the door today, and it appears that the glue has failed along the joints, and I doubt that they've used tenons.

Thanks for the advice, my stomach was telling me to pass, and I've done that .

Thanks for the tip tjbnwi, I actually had some 12" RSS screws that I had sitting around from a timber framing project, and had thought of using them, glad to hear that someone successfully used them.  I love GRK screws, they are excellent.

 

[jmbfestool]

Working on this job and I have been asked to have a look at this door which has expanded.  They where advised by this joiner they told me his name Funny enough was my Mentor when I was an apprentice Small world!  He said clamp it up and stick some dowels through the tenons!  Well I thought the same thing but when I started looking closer!  

I noticed that I could move the style and the gap was about 3mm BUT when looking at the boards in the middle I could see no gap what so ever not even 1 mm!  They have had it inside for 3 weeks but I think it should be MUCH longer to dry out.  Any way I think if I was to pull the joints back together and dowel it if it expands again it has no where to go and could just break the tenons or pop the boards or even bow/twist the door!  

Soooo I said can I remove the style and she said go ahead!  So I got some wood and a big hammer and knocked the style off! Came off with no damage!  Looking at the other style (hinge side) It has only broke on one joint which is the bottom one.    

I would like to remove this style as well but I am worried that the top two joints are still holding and I will struggle to get it off and cause damage I am thinking just for this one joint I can squeeze some glue down it if I can and pull it up and dowel it which will be good enough?!?! Advice please!

The style I have removed I was thinking if I make the rebate a little bigger this will allow for future swelling and wont break the joints again! Am I right in doing this?!?!?

If I was going to keep the other side on running my circular saw down the joint at rebate depth will allow for more room and will equal the sides out with two nice equal gaps on both sides. Advice please!

[attachimg=#]

[attachimg=#]

[attachimg=#]

 

[jmbfestool]

[attachimg=#]

[attachimg=#]

 

[jmbfestool]

Guy Ashley you recommended Cascamite well I asked my local dealer and all he had was Resintite he says is the same as Cacamite what do you think?!   It says on the tin its rated D3!  I noticed other wood glue rated D4! So bought that aswell which one would you use?!  Unfortunately I have not got time to wait to order some glue from internet or go find some as they want the door back as soon as possible.

[attachimg=#]

[attachimg=#]

 

[Guy Ashley]

JMB

When this door was originally made I doubt they left an expansion gap between the boards and as they have swelled they have blown the joints.

My advice, for what is worth is to take off the T & G or beaded boards and then check the rails for tight and square.

If they are "rock solid" then leave well alone, if there is any play at all you will have to try and pull them out, clean up the old glue off the tenons and out of the mortice's. Have a look and see if they have been wedged tenoned, if not then you may have a chance to chisel in from the outside edge of the stile to loosen it enough. You are unlikely to be able to squeeze the glue down into the mortice and it will only glue up on the tenon shoulders.

When you reassemble bang in wedges into the top and bottom of the tenon to provide a very strong joint. Use Cascamite to glue up the rails and stiles

Then dry fit the boards and as you assemble put 1mm plastic packers between each board to allow for expansion. You may have to shave a couple down to ensure you have this expansion gap. Fix the boards with 16g stainless steel brads so you dint get the black staining.

Then a couple of coats of Osmo oil and it will be good as new.

Good luck [smile]

 

[Guy Ashley]

JMB

Cascamite, Polymite, Resintite, it keeps changing name. As long as it is a Urea-Formaldehyde powdered resin glue it is fine. I wouldn't use PVA.

Do not trim the door stiles to allow for expansion, it is not them that are expanding it is the T & G boards. If each board expands 1mm and there are 5 boards then that will be enough to blow a stile off off the rails.

As we are comming up to winter it will only get wetter and whilst it may have expanded to its optimum dimension at the moment, don't risk it. Reassemble with the 1mm packers as guides then the joints in the T & G that have totally closed up with have a breathing space (expansion gap). Make sure it is given a couple of coats of oil or whatever exterior finish you intend to use before you rehang it

 

[jmbfestool]

JMB

When this door was originally made I doubt they left an expansion gap between the boards and as they have swelled they have blown the joints.

My advice, for what is worth is to take off the T & G or beaded boards and then check the rails for tight and square.

If they are "rock solid" then leave well alone, if there is any play at all you will have to try and pull them out, clean up the old glue off the tenons and out of the mortice's. Have a look and see if they have been wedged tenoned, if not then you may have a chance to chisel in from the outside edge of the stile to loosen it enough. You are unlikely to be able to squeeze the glue down into the mortice and it will only glue up on the tenon shoulders.

When you reassemble bang in wedges into the top and bottom of the tenon to provide a very strong joint. Use Cascamite to glue up the rails and stiles

Then dry fit the boards and as you assemble put 1mm plastic packers between each board to allow for expansion. You may have to shave a couple down to ensure you have this expansion gap. Fix the boards with 16g stainless steel brads so you dint get the black staining.

Then a couple of coats of Osmo oil and it will be good as new.

Good luck [smile]

Thank you very much!    Have you seen the glues above I have posted?! Do you think one of them be okay to use!  The Powder glue is rated D3 the tub glue is rated D4 so should be better right?!  

Yes the Tenons have wedges in them I have removed the wedges and got some more wood which you can see in the picture to make some more wedges and some dowels.  Would you put dowels in?!?!?  or taking it all apart and giving it some gap and gluing it back up and some wedged will be enough?  Thank you for your help!   I was thinking of taking the boards of but then thought well it has glass fitted to it but ill take your advice and remove the boards.

JMB

 

[jmbfestool]

JMB

Cascamite, Polymite, Resintite, it keeps changing name. As long as it is a Urea-Formaldehyde powdered resin glue it is fine. I wouldn't use PVA.

Do not trim the door stiles to allow for expansion, it is not them that are expanding it is the T & G boards. If each board expands 1mm and there are 5 boards then that will be enough to blow a stile off off the rails.

As we are comming up to winter it will only get wetter and whilst it may have expanded to its optimum dimension at the moment, don't risk it. Reassemble with the 1mm packers as guides then the joints in the T & G that have totally closed up with have a breathing space (expansion gap). Make sure it is given a couple of coats of oil or whatever exterior finish you intend to use before you rehang it

Okay thank you! I will do it like that. I see your point I was going to give it 2mm on the styles so would be 4mm on both styles and their are 4 boards so 1mm per board would equal 4mm but I think Id rather do your method.

JMB

 

[jmbfestool]

Guy Ashley I took your advice and took the door apart and have removed the bottom rail from the second style the other two felt solid so left them as they are Ill just be adding dowels to just make sure they wont move.

Thank you for the advice!

I noticed something when I glued up the frame!  [sad] The tenons stick out!  No thats not good! The door was stored in the lounge and the opening at the back is a building site and is blocked up at the moment BUT if I had more experience I should of checked it but I didnt!  The tenons are stick out 4mm so some one had planed the door when it wouldnt close but didnt fix the joints instead!

[attachimg=#]

[attachimg=#]

 

[Guy Ashley]

JMB

Dont worry, let the door set off and trim the wedges and tenons flush to the stile.

Measure the door opening, both horizontal at three points, (top, middle and bottom) and vertical at each lining.

Then check diagonals and see how the door fits. Expect you will have to trim to fit and if the door lining has been faffed around with in the past, expect you may have to pack out the hinges.

The absolute worst case will be the door is slightly too small in which case rebate and fillet on the hinge edge and reset the hinges, but I think you might be surprised.

The downside here is you are trying to correct other peoples "bodging" and that is always more time consuming and frustrating.

 

[jmbfestool]

JMB

Dont worry, let the door set off and trim the wedges and tenons flush to the stile.

Measure the door opening, both horizontal at three points, (top, middle and bottom) and vertical at each lining.

Then check diagonals and see how the door fits. Expect you will have to trim to fit and if the door lining has been faffed around with in the past, expect you may have to pack out the hinges.

The absolute worst case will be the door is slightly too small in which case rebate and fillet on the hinge edge and reset the hinges, but I think you might be surprised.

The downside here is you are trying to correct other peoples "bodging" and that is always more time consuming and frustrating.

Yeah it is annoying! Last week I had to fix this kitchen which was fitted by two different carpenters!  The work top was 30mm from the wall [eek] The thing is I couldnt push it back as the adjacent work top joining would be to short if I pushed it back!  I never seen any thing like it!  They had tiled it really thick to try and over come the problem but I could still get my fingers down the back.  I told the clients they had two options!  1. Get new work tops. 2. Have an up stand the same as the worktop stuck against the tiles!.   Of course they went with the upstand cheaper!  Then I find out no where sells up stand to match work top even howdens where they got the kitchen from dont sell an up stand for that worktop!  Luckily the clients went B&Q and noticed the up stand and thought it looked the same as the worktop and brought it back home and it was!!  I found the fridge was really low! they had just pushed it under and fixed the door high so when you opened the door it had a 6inch gap above!  Then I find looking at the coving joints they were all open and not glued! I had to remove them all and redo them and use filler as some where to short! Then I find a tall unit was kept flush with the work top for some reason so you had a 40 mm gap down the back of it you could see the micro wave at the back! I didnt understand!    I couldnt believe any of it never seen such bad workman ship.

Any way sorry about that!  Im confused to what you mean by : The absolute worst case will be the door is slightly too small in which case rebate and fillet on the hinge edge and reset the hinges, but I think you might be surprised.

Cheers JMB

 

[jmbfestool]

Door did not stand a chance!

[attachimg=#]