Return to Economical alternative to the Multi Purpose Routing MFS CONCLUSION

[woodwreck]

Last week I started a discussion of alternatives to the cost of the Multi Function Routing Guide - MFS. The thread went astray and I apologize for that. Here then is a clean slate with pics of the alternative described - 1" x 3 1/8" extrusions ordered from 8020, a supplier many forumites are familiar with.

This suggestion is not intended to be a Festool clone, although it serves almost identical purposes. Nor is it intended as any pejorative comment of Festool.

It is intended to describe for the readers' determination, a financially feasible alternative that will meet the needs of most typical (v. commercial) users for such a fixture. For any functions not satisfied, the reader has the opportunity to make his/her own buying decision based on value of the need as described here.

I have ordered a 24" x 24" frames for my needs. Here are the costs of Festool off the shelf options, and expanded to 24" square to make equal comparisons.

MFS 400 8 x 16" $263.00
MFS 700 16" x 28" $400.00

MFS 400 or 700 expanded to 24" x 24" $519.00
Extra rail per foot 39.00

8020 24" x 24" as ordered $107.00
Extra rail per foot + $1.95 cutting charge each 6.60

P.S. just received invoice:
8020 - $106.80;
Plus ales tax 9.88; UPS shipping $16.82 which varies by your location from Indiana. Total $133.50

1. Principal issue - squareness/accuracy. We have been reminded of the precaution of wasting effort and resources in substandard products. This fully endorses that point of view and I am probably not the only one who has made that mistake  [blink] . For anyone not familiar with 8020 products, they are a premier industrial supplier and far exceed the demands of this application in quality and strength.

Most significantly, simply tightening the extrusion fittings brings a perfectly square joint dead on as tested with an aluminum speed square.

As shown in the pics, the segments are joined with machined clamp connectors rather than self tapping machine screws threaded into the walls of the extrusion slots. These have been mentioned as a slightly potential problem through user mishandling. On the other hand, the 8020 clamps slide freely and immediately pull the pieces together.

2. Features

Rail size - Festool 3/4" x 3 1/8";    8020: 1" x 3 1/8". The  comment has been made preferring the thinner dimension of 3/4".
I know of no operational effect in this difference and view it as a user preferential buying decision.

3. Weight  - Festool 10 pounds 5 oz. In box plus weight of two extensions wt. unknown.
               8020 10 pounds 4 oz.
I see no operational effect in this difference and view it as a user preferential buying decision.

4. Angle brackets. Two, both. No difference

5. Scribed scale on rail. This is one of only two operational differences that I could find, but I view it as minor. Having the rule etched on the rail indeed provides a smooth time saving step in changing size, but I believe it can equally be done with a tape measure or steel ruler; some disagree. The issue is whether or not that extra step warrants the difference in cost - a user preferential buying decision.

6. Circle pivot . This is the other difference mentioned in (5.) but may be irrelevant or in fact a disadvantage to my observation.

Brice Burrell's outstanding manual on the MFS system, The Festool MFS Multi-Routing Template System; A User's Guide by Brice Burrell, describes the total operation. Circle cutting is described in detail - in summary, the MFS requires the mounting of the pivot attachment and a "copying ring," aka bushing guide. The inserted pin uses a 5/16" hole for pivot.

Then ensues some involved calculations described in the book's excellent drawings, but to my observation, time consuming and prone to test and error. The entire frame is then swung around the pivot. This operation in setup and testing seems to me to be directly counterintuitive to the argument about importance of marked scales.

I prefer not to have the Festool pivot feature in the first place; if the function is not of substantial use to the buyer as is frequently the case, then the buying decision becomes almost non-existent in my opinion.

Instead of the included feature, I use a Jasper Circle Cutting jig. (Pic 4) The jigs - four or five models to select from -  are pre calculated to the bit size, and provide circles in 1/16" increments with no calculations. Just insert the 1/8" steel pivot peg and rotate the router. Cost approximately $45.

The Jasper jig does not appear to have pre-drilled holes for a Festool router but does for most other commonly used router brands.

7. Hex driver. Included n both cases. Available as standard hardware, retail.

8. Anti - tip block same thickness of rail is Included in Festool, not in 8020.
I cut my own from a piece of High Density slippery stuff plastic.

9. Clamps. Festool MFT clamps do not fit in the 8 peripheral 1/4" T-slots of this extrusion. They do however work nicely in the two interior cells on the ends. See pic 4. The entire frame is frequently best simply clamped to work surface with C clamps, or with the two angle clamps, varies by situation. Note: I had previously posted that they do fit - I checked a different size (5/16") extrusion. Sorry to whoever asked that question).  ???

10. 8020 Parts used. Note that 8020 extrusions are ordered by the foot/inch at prices shown in (2.) above allowing greater flexibility.

#1030 1" x 3" T-slotted extrusion order to length, 8' length 54.75
#3395 10 S Anchor fastener assembly @2.90
#7003 Cutting charge per cut length @1.95
#7042 Milling charge per each #3395 above, Anchor fast counterbore. 2.65

Thank you for looking, I hope this is beneficial.

 

[woodwreck]

Attached are four piics for above.

 

[Corwin]

....
#1030 1" x 3" T-slotted extrusion order to length, 8' length 54.75
#3395 10 S Anchor fastener assembly @2.90
#7003 Cutting charge per cut length @1.95
#7042 Milling charge per each #3395 above, Anchor fast counterbore. 2.65

Nice job on your 8020 version of the MFS.  Is there a reason for 10 of the S Anchor fasteners, or do you really only need 8?  Probably a couple extras would come in handy if one were lost...  Again, good job -- and it looks as if you have also done a good jog addressed each potential issue that members here have brought up.  Thanks for posting.

 

[score0matic]

Thank you WoodWreck  nice summation

Craig

 

[Jay Evans]

I'm sure with a little work on a belt sander or bench grinder, you could modify a set of Festool clamps to fit the 80/20 slots in a short period of time.  A small price to pay for a custom set, as the 80/20 extrusions are much lest costly.  About two years ago I made a similar 80/20 set up and it will work well for most situations.

I just bought the MFS 700 set, and have to say I like the extrusions and proportions of the components.  I feel it is very expensive for a hobbyist, which I am, but for someone who has a use for such an item on a weekly basis and gets paid for their time and labor, I believe it would be a sound investment.  It also has the advantage of being part of the Festool system, which means it will work with rapid clamps, guide rail joining elements and all Festool clamping and stop block products with no modifications. 

For me the MFS has one significant advantage.  I'll try and explain it without pictures.  To make a template to rout ..say a hand hold profile, with the MFS I can make the template out of 5/8 thick stock, just a little larger then the profile of the handhold itself, and trap that in the MFS which gives me a good holding reach.  This way I don't have a bunch of large  router templates around, but templates just a little bigger then the actual profile can be trapped and used on the center of large projects.  I could take a 10" dia circle template on 3/4 ply 12" square, and nest in the  MFS700 and clamp and rout to the center of a 4 x 8 foot sheet of plywood, but I only have to save the 12 x 12 template for future projects.

I hope this idea helps.

 

[Michael Kellough]

Looks good WoodWreck.

I wonder if you could post a comparison of actual total costs including shipping?
How many of the round hole milling charges did you incur?
How close to 90 degrees are the end cuts?

The only downside to the 8020 stuff is that at 1" thick it is 3/8" thicker than the MFS
(which at 16mm is much closer to 5/8" than 3/4").

 

[woodwreck]

....
#1030 1" x 3" T-slotted extrusion order to length, 8' length 54.75
#3395 10 S Anchor fastener assembly @2.90
#7003 Cutting charge per cut length @1.95
#7042 Milling charge per each #3395 above, Anchor fast counterbore. 2.65

Nice job on your 8020 version of the MFS.  Is there a reason for 10 of the S Anchor fasteners, or do you really only need 8?  Probably a couple extras would come in handy if one were lost...  Again, good job -- and it looks as if you have also done a good jog addressed each potential issue that members here have brought up.  Thanks for posting.

I believe the "10 S" is in their part ID - yes qty. is eight, and a spare or two (they're inexpensive) is a good idea. When un-tightened they are loose probably designed for Klutzes like me  ;D . The '3395' is all you need to order.

...each issue... was my goal. Thank you.

 

[woodwreck]

Looks good WoodWreck.

I wonder if you could post a comparison of actual total costs including shipping?
How many of the round hole milling charges did you incur?
How close to 90 degrees are the end cuts?

The only downside to the 8020 stuff is that at 1" thick it is 3/8" thicker than the MFS
(which at 16mm is much closer to 5/8" than 3/4").

- The $117 stated is my total cost as I understand it from the supplier in email - I am waiting for my statement/invoice to arrive. It should include shipping which will vary to your location, shipping from Indiana. When I receive it I will confirm. If by comparison you mean to Festool shipping costs that would be similar if UPS  or if you pick it up at a Festool dealer, there may or may not be shipping costs if they include it in their normal inventory etc. - you would need to check with the dealer. If you should be interested in ordering you would want to verify the shipping if that is a concern, yes this stuff is heavy.
- the milling charges are one per fastener (eight)
- 'how close to 90 degrees...'  That is clearly stated and emphasized under (1.)

 

[woodwreck]

Woodwreck,
Thanks for the write-up!  Excellent job summarizing.  Can you provide the vendor?  Also, can you post pics of your anti-tip block?  Does it operate similarly to Festool's (attach to router base and swivel)?

Joe

The vendor is 80/20 - that is their real name. Go to www.8020.net

The block is simply just  that - a 1" or bigger block of wood or any material same thickness of the extrusion placed under the rear of the base pate with one base plate mounting screw holding it in place through it - or anything similar. Cut it to any size or curvature or straight as you wish. Smooth wood is good, or I recommend UHMW plastic.

 

[woodwreck]

For me the MFS has one significant advantage.  ...  To make a template to rout ..say a hand hold profile, with the MFS I can make the template out of 5/8 thick stock, just a little larger then the profile of the handhold itself, and trap that in the MFS which gives me a good holding reach.  This way I don't have a bunch of large  router templates around, but templates just a little bigger then the actual profile can be trapped and used on the center of large projects.  I could take a 10" dia circle template on 3/4 ply 12" square, and nest in the  MFS700 and clamp and rout to the center of a 4 x 8 foot sheet of plywood, but I only have to save the 12 x 12 template for future projects.

I hope this idea helps.

I am probably a little slow on the uptake,  but strictly as an operational matter, you could place the frame - either or any other similar product - under the material instead and cut hand hold to exact size without making an oversize template, [blink]  or without making any template for that matter, using a router bit with bearing rather than the bushing method.

Also, your advantageous method and total description is identical with either product. Brice Burrell's publication cited shows how to do both bushing and bearing that in detail.

 

[woodwreck]

Looks good WoodWreck.

I wonder if you could post a comparison of actual total costs including shipping?
How many of the round hole milling charges did you incur?
How close to 90 degrees are the end cuts?

The only downside to the 8020 stuff is that at 1" thick it is 3/8" thicker than the MFS
(which at 16mm is much closer to 5/8" than 3/4").

- The $117 stated is my total cost as I understand it from the supplier in email - I am waiting for my statement/invoice to arrive. It should include shipping which will vary to your location, shipping from Indiana. When I receive it I will confirm. If by comparison you mean to Festool shipping costs that would be similar if UPS  or if you pick it up at a Festool dealer, there may or may not be shipping costs if they include it in their normal inventory etc. - you would need to check with the dealer. If you should be interested in ordering you would want to verify the shipping if that is a concern, yes this stuff is heavy.
- the milling charges are one per fastener (eight)
- 'how close to 90 degrees...'   That is clearly stated and emphasized under (1.)

OK, just received invoice:
8020 - $106.80; Sales tax 9.88; UPS shipping $16.82. Total $133.50

 

[Corwin]

...
For me the MFS has one significant advantage.  I'll try and explain it without pictures.  To make a template to rout ..say a hand hold profile, with the MFS I can make the template out of 5/8 thick stock, just a little larger then the profile of the handhold itself, and trap that in the MFS which gives me a good holding reach.  This way I don't have a bunch of large  router templates around, but templates just a little bigger then the actual profile can be trapped and used on the center of large projects.  I could take a 10" dia circle template on 3/4 ply 12" square, and nest in the  MFS700 and clamp and rout to the center of a 4 x 8 foot sheet of plywood, but I only have to save the 12 x 12 template for future projects.

I hope this idea helps.

Great idea Jay.  But, the same could be accomplished with the 8020 version here, except you would need to make your templates from 1" material instead of the 5/8" you currently use.  Again, great idea to use the MFS to contain a template such that you can reduce the overall size of the template.

 

[woodwreck]

...
For me the MFS has one significant advantage.  I'll try and explain it without pictures.  To make a template to rout ..say a hand hold profile, with the MFS I can make the template out of 5/8 thick stock, just a little larger then the profile of the handhold itself, and trap that in the MFS which gives me a good holding reach.  This way I don't have a bunch of large  router templates around, but templates just a little bigger then the actual profile can be trapped and used on the center of large projects.  I could take a 10" dia circle template on 3/4 ply 12" square, and nest in the  MFS700 and clamp and rout to the center of a 4 x 8 foot sheet of plywood, but I only have to save the 12 x 12 template for future projects.

I hope this idea helps.

Great idea Jay.  But, the same could be accomplished with the 8020 version here, except you would need to make your templates from 1" material instead of the 5/8" you currently use.  Again, great idea to use the MFS to contain a template such that you can reduce the overall size of the template.

WHOAAA gentlemen forgive me as an observer, but as I said in my other response further down the listing, no template is needed for the non-circular cuts. THAT was the whole argument by those in support of the MFT's included scribed markings, or a tape measure if you will, in their absence.

And, neither the hickness of the template "need to make your templates from 1" material instead" nor the thickness of the extrusion itself for that matter, have any relevance. Please check with Brice or his document for the expert explanation.

 

[Jay Evans]

Sorry-
I didn't do too good a job explaining so everyone would understand.  The circle was a bad example.  I could make a template of an 8" high triangle, on a piece of 10" x 10" square material, and reach and clamp anywhere on a large surface using the MFS as a frame to contain the template with the extrusions allowing for clamping. 

The same can be done with the 80/20 and 1" thick template but 5/8 Baltic birch ply is readily available near me and easy to shape.  I would have to glue up to get 1" thick....
Sorry for the poor explanation....it's just an idea- I thought it may be useful to someone like me that doesn't want to use a large piece of plywood for making a template and having to store same.

Jay

 

[Corwin]

Jay, I didn't see anything wrong with your explanation.  And your idea is a good one!

WHOAAA gentlemen forgive me as an observer, but as I said in my other response further down the listing, no template is needed for the non-circular cuts. THAT was the whole argument by those in support of the MFT's included scribed markings, or a tape measure if you will, in their absence.

And, neither the hickness of the template "need to make your templates from 1" material instead" nor the thickness of the extrusion itself for that matter, have any relevance. Please check with Brice or his document for the expert explanation.

On the other hand, maybe you did need to explain better.  It seems no matter how well one explains his/her idea here, someone will misunderstand.  Other than this thread, and its relatives, I have recently been misunderstood in a few posts.  Sometimes it is something that I could have expressed more precisely and other times the person that misunderstood just should have read all that was posted.  And, then I suppose that there are always those times when complete instructions are in order. 
                                                          [dead horse]

 

[dltflt]

Great job Woodwreck!!  I'm going to talk to a vendor in my area that carries a comptetive brand to the 8020.

 

[kosta]

MFS 400 8 x 16" $263.00
MFS 700 16" x 28" $400.00

MFS 400 or 700 expanded to 24" x 24" $519.00
Extra rail per foot 39.00

8020 24" x 24" as ordered $107.00
Extra rail per foot + $1.95 cutting charge each 6.60

Thank you for looking, I hope this is beneficial.

Why not use simple t-tracks and 3/4" mdf to make up the width?
Same can be done with wood only and L brackets.

Posting  in  forum (A) how to copy tool  A using  materials from vendor B is simply wrong...
Coming up with a new design and teaching how to make the same tool is much better...

We have to keep in mind the warehousing, marketing, dealers, technical support and few other factors.

I like to keep  $$$ comparisons in perspective.

 

[declinetostate]

why do people get so bent out of shape when other options are brought up? Someone found a cheaper alternative for a simple routing guide and we have to justify festool's pricing? It's aluminium extrusion folks. I dont know about you but I like the idea and I'd take the extra money and spend it on something else that's festool. Something that isn't easily duplicated by another method. Be honest with yourselves. We buy festool because no one else matches what they do. We pay the prices because no one else has products that come close. We get so loyal to festool and feel like we need to defend them. Buy what works and use it. In the end the router doesn't know the difference and I'd say the same about the customer who's project your working on. Just my  thought.

 

[justinmcf]

great job woodwreck!

i have been considering the mfs 400 and 700.

your idea is much cheaper for me.

thanks.

kosta, i have read your post, and i have no idea what you are talking about.

regards, justin.

 

[James Watriss]

I think I'll justify in a different direction.

I own the MFS. I like the MFS. I use the MFS.

I also own an 80/20 big book catalog, and I have several ideas for how to use their product. I love 80/20. Pure and simple.

The last time I went to a "woodworking show," I was about ready to start stabbing people. I saw literally acres of plain-jane, raw and anodized T-track that is sized for 1/4-20 and 5/16" bolts. And everyone is going gaga making jigs out of this very limited paradigm, with very little attempt to break out of that mold. I get it, it's cheap, and it's what everyone knows. And that's why Kreg gets away with charging a psychotic premium for a 2' length of L-shaped T-track made into a crosscut fence. Don't get me wrong, I love Kreg, too.

But 80/20 provides the opportunity to be creative and design and build jigs, fences, etc, etc, for less than a finished product that has to be marketed and merchandised, as demonstrated here. In this instance, the virtue of the idea is that anyone can build an MFS-like structure in any configuration... any length we want, with as many pieces as we want. And if we need one that joins at 30 degrees, or 60 degrees, that's possible. If you wanted to make an 8 foot long, angled MFS with multiple cross-pieces that were angled and proportioned to crank out stair stringers at production speeds, you can do that.

I'm not saying that it's noble to knock off an existing product. It's not. But I do think that it's good to be familiar with the available resources that are out there for serious jig and fixture making, and to not be shy about putting them to use.