Router for table insertion

[SMLWinds]

Guys-I am relatively new to woodworking and am currently setting up my shop. I like to buy top of the line products so I don't outgrow them or have to upgrade them (which, like yourself, is why I am here!). I already have a Kapex miter and a Trion jig saw, both of which I am very happy with.

The next thing I need to buy is a router to use in a router table. This router will be permanently mounted to the table--I will be getting another router for handheld use.

My question to you guys is, since I am only mounting it into a table, is something like Milwaukee going to be just as good as Festool? I know Festool's routers have a lot of nice features and when it comes time to buy a handheld router I'm certain Festool will be the leading candidate. But, if I am buying a one dimensional router that will permanently be mounted into a router table, is Festool a waste? As much as I loo for an excuse to buy Festool, I am not sure it will be better than most quality routers in a table only.

I don't have a router table picked out yet. I have been told i should make my own, which is an option. The table will be permanent in the shop as well, so no need to be terribly portable. I would rather it be stable and functional.

Any help is appreciated! Thanks for everyone's help...I am glad I found this group of people who share my admiration for Festool!

 

[Birdhunter]

I was in this situation before the CMS came out. I built a large router table around the Kreg system. I installed a Porter Cable motor and built an enclosure into the Kreg table for dust control. The set up works very well. It's big , powerful, and stable.

If I had not just built my table, I'd buy the Festool CMS with the 1400 router. The sliding table and the dust control would justify the price. The negatives are the small table size and it's not as stable as my table.

I don't need to move my machines out of the shop so the CMS portability and light weight are not factors for me.

If you build your own table, plan for dust control from the start. Routers generate massive amounts of dust and chips!

 

[peter halle]

Welcome to the FOG!

There are tons of members here who have other brands of routers in router tables.  Most of the router lifts / mounting plates out there are not designed for the Festool products.  When I started a thread a couple of years ago here asking about which one to buy the suggestions I got included the Milwaukee and also the Porter Cable 7518.

You might want to take a look at the lifts out there and check to see which ones will mount which routers.  I selected a Jessum lift so that I had flexibility, but since then I moved up to the CMS and find my old home built table sitting idle.

Peter

 

[rljatl]

This router table was rated best by Fine Woodworking.  Excalibur 40-200C Deluxe Router Table

Without a router lift, this router works well in a table.  Triton TRA001 3-1/4 HP  Be sure to read the reviews and comments.  Mine works great.

With a router lift, I used to recommend the PORTER-CABLE 75182 Variable Speed Router Motor, BUT, I am not so sure about P-C quality anymore.

 

[Crox G]

Ditto on the Triton.  I mounted the smaller one in a homemade router table before I discovered Festools, and it has been a reliable tool, easy to insert, adjust, and remove bits.  Excellent dust collection.  The larger Triton should handle anything you shove into it.  The smaller one can handle anything by taking two or three cuts.  It doesn't require a lift.  You can change bits and adjust the height from the top of the table.

Crox

 

[SMLWinds]

Tables aside, do you guys feel the Festool routers are superior to those such as Milwaukee and Porter-Cable? For my miter saw and jig saw I felt Festool offered superiority for the added price. I'm not convinced the router itself has much benefit over the others, especially if all I am going to do it permanenetly mount it in a table.

Can someone please answer a very rookie question for me--I have never used a router table so am fairly ignorant on them. What is the "lift"? Is that what attached to the table and lifts it above or below the table surface? From reading what you guys have said, apparently some tables don't have them? What are the pros and cons to lift or no lift?

It seems I may need to decide on my plans for a table prior to buying a router. I don't mind buying the CMS, but my only hesitation is the small table size and the fact that I feel like part of the price is the portability aspect. I am going to permanently place a router in the table and leave the table in one place so that is not an important feature for me.  Any help is appreciated!

Sorry for all the rookie questions...I'm learning!

 

[greg mann]

Don't apologize. Most of us have probably configured and reconfigured and are probably planning another reconfiguration of our own. There is no single right answer to what makes a good RT. I have two, one with a plunge router (Hitachi, which I used to really love but only kinda like now) and one with aloft carrying a PC 7518 (which I like more). The PC is with an Incra WonderFence and the Hitachi is with a Jessem fence. I go back and forth and use whichever seems to be best suited to the job at hand. I often use both on the same job so I can save setups. If I had more room I would probably have 4 with a DC setup in the middle. AND, I am a hobbyist. [wink]. Each of us is crazy in his own way.

 

[peter halle]

Tables aside, do you guys feel the Festool routers are superior to those such as Milwaukee and Porter-Cable? For my miter saw and jig saw I felt Festool offered superiority for the added price. I'm not convinced the router itself has much benefit over the others, especially if all I am going to do it permanenetly mount it in a table.

Can someone please answer a very rookie question for me--I have never used a router table so am fairly ignorant on them. What is the "lift"? Is that what attached to the table and lifts it above or below the table surface? From reading what you guys have said, apparently some tables don't have them? What are the pros and cons to lift or no lift?

It seems I may need to decide on my plans for a table prior to buying a router. I don't mind buying the CMS, but my only hesitation is the small table size and the fact that I feel like part of the price is the portability aspect. I am going to permanently place a router in the table and leave the table in one place so that is not an important feature for me.  Any help is appreciated!

Sorry for all the rookie questions...I'm learning!

Sorry about that.  With router tables one of the considerations is the mounting of the router table usually using a plate of some sort that sits in a recessed lip of the table so that when you slide something across the top it is smooth so that when you route something it doesn't have any hiccups.  In the "non lift" days when you needed to adjust how high the bit extended above the table you would pull the plate and router out and then make your adjustments or sticking your arm underneath and working blind to achieve the same.

The router lifts just allow you to do that without pulling the plate and router out of the table.  Usually the lifting mechanism is supplied with the plate and you have some sort of crank or hand wheel that allows you to raise or lower the bit by a gnat's hair or more to get the setting right.

Festool routers are amongst the best based on their engineering, their speed control, their protection circuits, their brush design, the number of bearings, etc.  What they are not is router table friendly as far as mounting unless you have a Festool router table (CMS).  Festool is like Apple.  They design tools to work within their system and if someone wants to take their tools out of the system they will work well but may not integrate easily into other systems.

Sorry for the long post.

Peter

 

[Peter Durand]

Tables aside, do you guys feel the Festool routers are superior to those such as Milwaukee and Porter-Cable? For my miter saw and jig saw I felt Festool offered superiority for the added price. I'm not convinced the router itself has much benefit over the others, especially if all I am going to do it permanenetly mount it in a table.

Can someone please answer a very rookie question for me--I have never used a router table so am fairly ignorant on them. What is the "lift"? Is that what attached to the table and lifts it above or below the table surface? From reading what you guys have said, apparently some tables don't have them? What are the pros and cons to lift or no lift?

It seems I may need to decide on my plans for a table prior to buying a router. I don't mind buying the CMS, but my only hesitation is the small table size and the fact that I feel like part of the price is the portability aspect. I am going to permanently place a router in the table and leave the table in one place so that is not an important feature for me.  Any help is appreciated!

Sorry for all the rookie questions...I'm learning!

Sorry about that.  With router tables one of the considerations is the mounting of the router table usually using a plate of some sort that sits in a recessed lip of the table so that when you slide something across the top it is smooth so that when you route something it doesn't have any hiccups.  In the "non lift" days when you needed to adjust how high the bit extended above the table you would pull the plate and router out and then make your adjustments or sticking your arm underneath and working blind to achieve the same.

The router lifts just allow you to do that without pulling the plate and router out of the table.  Usually the lifting mechanism is supplied with the plate and you have some sort of crank or hand wheel that allows you to raise or lower the bit by a gnat's hair or more to get the setting right.

Festool routers are amongst the best based on their engineering, their speed control, their protection circuits, their brush design, the number of bearings, etc.  What they are not is router table friendly as far as mounting unless you have a Festool router table (CMS).  Festool is like Apple.  They design tools to work within their system and if someone wants to take their tools out of the system they will work well but may not integrate easily into other systems.

Sorry for the long post.

Peter

I agree. I finally settled, after quite a few years of trial and frustration, on the PC 7518 mounted on an Incra (sold by Woodpecker) lifting mount. It is in a General cast iron (NO sagging in the long run) table. The fence is the Incra with all the goodies.  I posted a picture in another thread and don't know how to refer to it. So, here is the pic a second time:[attachimg=#]

 

[ccarrolladams]

Long before Festool mentioned inventing the CMS router table, in fact 20 years before I ever saw a Festool plunge router, I realized there were many taks traditionally done using shapers which could be done using inverted routers. Before portable routers came along starting circa 1946, we had grown up using and setting shapers. Trust me, it is a lot faster to change a bit and set it in an inverted router than change ans set the knives of a shaper. On the other hand, when the same set up will be used a long time there are benefits to using a modern shaper. In my shop we have two modern shapers and several router tables.

In my router tables I use only PC7518. They can be purchased without a base. I have several vendors who rebuild my 7518 so they perform as factory new. The 7518 is built to the international standard for such routers, so virtually all lift systems fit them. As I rebuild my router tables I have been using the lifts from Woodpecker, and the Incra fences which also provide dust collection. MY RT working surfaces are custom made from tool steel plate on CNC machines and then Blanchard surface ground. Those tables are about the size of the tables on my Felder Format 4 shapers. Enclosing the lifter and the router is a sheet metal box connected to the plant dust collection system with 100mm hose. The Incra fences are connected with separate 50mm hoses.

Both of the shapers and one of the router tables have power drives. The two router tables used for cope have sliding tables and serve as coping sleds.

We do a large enough volume of custom doors and drawer fronts we need all those machines and therefore I bought a very large building so I have the space to use them without bumping into another machine. This would not be a practical approach for the DIY home shop.

 

[dicktill]

I agree. I finally settled, after quite a few years of trial and frustration, on the PC 7518 mounted on an Incra (sold by Woodpecker) lifting mount. It is in a General cast iron (NO sagging in the long run) table. The fence is the Incra with all the goodies.  I posted a picture in another thread and don't know how to refer to it. So, here is the pic a second time:[attachimg=#1]

Peter & Caroll:

Do you get decent dust extraction with the Incra fence as shown in Peter's picture where it is open on the top and upper front face? What are you using for dust extraction? I have an Incra fence, and when I open it up like that for a medium size router bit (like a tongue and groove set), I get poor dust extraction, although a bit better if I tape up the open joints. Perhaps that's because I'm using a Festoool CT 26? I do have a ClearVue CV1800 on my wish list ...

Thanks, Dick

 

[Peter Durand]

I agree. I finally settled, after quite a few years of trial and frustration, on the PC 7518 mounted on an Incra (sold by Woodpecker) lifting mount. It is in a General cast iron (NO sagging in the long run) table. The fence is the Incra with all the goodies.  I posted a picture in another thread and don't know how to refer to it. So, here is the pic a second time:[attachimg=#1]

Peter & Caroll:

Do you get decent dust extraction with the Incra fence as shown in Peter's picture where it is open on the top and upper front face? What are you using for dust extraction? I have an Incra fence, and when I open it up like that for a medium size router bit (like a tongue and groove set), I get poor dust extraction, although a bit better if I tape up the open joints. Perhaps that's because I'm using a Festoool CT 26? I do have a ClearVue CV1800 on my wish list ...

Thanks, Dick

I suppose it depends on what you have as a dust collector. Mine, a number of years old, is an Oneida 2HP with a 7 inch intake. The 7 inch spiral pipe runs to within a few feet of the tools where it transitions to the appropriate diameter. The cabinet where the router lives has a 4 inch extracting opening and  make up air holes in the same cavity. The fence extraction is connected to the main 4 inch flex. Works very well indeed.Here are a few more pics to give you a better idea of my inadequate description.

 

[ccarrolladams]

Hi Dick and Everyone,

My plant dust collection system has 4 20hp blower sections, because when in use my CNC machines and the pressure beam saw generate chips and dust in vast quantities. Each of my router tables has a dedicated 100mm hose directly connecting to an overhead DC trunk duct. The 50mm hose for each fence which is connected to a dedicated 100mm hose using a reducer.

My goal in designing my custom cabinet plant is to collect as much dust as practical. It is hard to compare the collection of the router tables with my shapers, because each of those have 7.5 hp motors. Felder takes dust collection as seriously as does Festool.

With the router tables and the shapers, close at hand is a rolling CT22 with a 36mm hose and cleaning set to collect anything missed by the DC system.

By the way, for every tool connected to the plant DC system there are electrically operated blast gates which open and close as needed. The DC system has spark detection and suppression. Airflow detectors direct how many of the blower sections are active at any moment. The system's computer decides which blower section, so wear and tear is equal.

 

[NYC Tiny Shop]

These are all terrific set-ups! Wow! I just perfectly rabbeted 16 rails and stiles in about 15 minutes, with complete calmness because of the safety features, and a 30 seconds or less clean-up with my Festool CMS GE SET.  There was virtually no dust in the air!! If you have a small shop or may be going remote, then this is definitely something to consider!

 

[SMLWinds]

Thanks for all the answers guys! That was great information. I really liked and could relate to the analogy of Festool being like Apple. I agree, Festool is top notch for quality in every way. However, while I am certain Festool will last longer, I'm not sure it actually would do a better job than a PC or Milwaukee routing a piece of wood. And, I think the lack of versatility in which table you can use is a drawback. I find it compelling that even on the FOG forum, where we are all fans of Festool, that so many of you have PC routers.

Can anyone give me some names to start with for researching the best router tables? I need to start studying them as well. I lean towards either Milwaukee or PC for a router. Anyone have a preference between those two? I certainly want a lift for my table.

Thanks again for your help...any recommendations further, especially recommendations for a table are appreciated!

 

[rljatl]

Thanks for all the answers guys! That was great information. I really liked and could relate to the analogy of Festool being like Apple. I agree, Festool is top notch for quality in every way. However, while I am certain Festool will last longer, I'm not sure it actually would do a better job than a PC or Milwaukee routing a piece of wood. And, I think the lack of versatility in which table you can use is a drawback. I find it compelling that even on the FOG forum, where we are all fans of Festool, that so many of you have PC routers.

Can anyone give me some names to start with for researching the best router tables? I need to start studying them as well. I lean towards either Milwaukee or PC for a router. Anyone have a preference between those two? I certainly want a lift for my table.

Thanks again for your help...any recommendations further, especially recommendations for a table are appreciated!

See my post above.  The current Fine Woodworking 2014 Tool Guide has router tables in it.

 

[SMLWinds]

I am going to head out and purchase that tool guide. Looks great!

Any links or pages online where I can start my research? I have literally no knowledge of router tables aside from seeing them used on videos and reading about them in books during my preparation for wood working. I need to gain some basic knowledge. Thanks!

I'm leaning towards the Milwaukee 5625 router. Seems it has some advantages in adjustment over the Porter Cable 7518, although both are clearly great machines. I would like to buy a Festool, but must be honest in saying that while I don't hesitate to spend money on premium products, I have yet to be convinced that when inserted in a table there is much advantage over the Milwaukee--certainly not enough to justify doubling my cost and limiting the lift and table options available to me. Still open to thoughts!

 

[Peter Durand]

I am going to head out and purchase that tool guide. Looks great!

Any links or pages online where I can start my research? I have literally no knowledge of router tables aside from seeing them used on videos and reading about them in books during my preparation for wood working. I need to gain some basic knowledge. Thanks!

I'm leaning towards the Milwaukee 5625 router. Seems it has some advantages in adjustment over the Porter Cable 7518, although both are clearly great machines. I would like to buy a Festool, but must be honest in saying that while I don't hesitate to spend money on premium products, I have yet to be convinced that when inserted in a table there is much advantage over the Milwaukee--certainly not enough to justify doubling my cost and limiting the lift and table options available to me. Still open to thoughts!

I suggest you get a router lift and fit the PC in it. As mentioned before, it will fit all the lifts. Those lifts are worth their weight in gold when it comes to adjusting height. The only thing you want to be able to do on the router itself, under the table, is adjust the speed. For what its worth, after using a number of different lifts, I settled on the Incra. Made by Incra, sold by Woodpecker.

http://www.woodpeck.com/prlv2.html

The handle to lift the motor to table height in one go to change bits was the feature that made me buy it. Love that lift.

Cheers,

 

[ccarrolladams]

I am going to head out and purchase that tool guide. Looks great!

Any links or pages online where I can start my research? I have literally no knowledge of router tables aside from seeing them used on videos and reading about them in books during my preparation for wood working. I need to gain some basic knowledge. Thanks!

I'm leaning towards the Milwaukee 5625 router. Seems it has some advantages in adjustment over the Porter Cable 7518, although both are clearly great machines. I would like to buy a Festool, but must be honest in saying that while I don't hesitate to spend money on premium products, I have yet to be convinced that when inserted in a table there is much advantage over the Milwaukee--certainly not enough to justify doubling my cost and limiting the lift and table options available to me. Still open to thoughts!

In 1946 the first router I bought was a Porter Cable. I am not so sure at that moment any other brand of router existed in the USA. By the mid 1950's I started favoring Milwaukee products, especially drills and rotary hammers. When I opened my first custom cabinet business in 1959 I bought several Milwaukee routers. My late wife's father owned a large tool and metal supply firm, which sold Milwaukee, PC, Skil, B&D and several other brands, so I could take advantage of "family" prices from his firm.

Earlier I was not kidding about my preference for the PC7518 in router tables. Fond though I was of the Milwaukee 5625 as a router system, I never found that when only the router motor and collet was being compared, it has a single advantage over the PC7518. Both of those router motors will fit in all of the best router table lifts, which provide the adjust-ability.

In a router table what you want is a motor system with reliable bearings, consistent power and design to run with the collet upward. Most of us owning and using router tables also have additional routers to use with bases. There is no reason why the router motors in the tables need to be the same make and model as the routers used with bases.

An advantage of the PC7518 is that they are sold as just the router motor. Also when time comes to repair and do over-hauls parts cost less.

From 2006 until 2010 I rented space in several woodworking shops on a project-by-project basis. I wanted to be sure my health was good enough to justify the investment in a large woodworking shop, which in my mind would need to be more sophisticated than the 15,000 square foot shop which I sold to my employees in 1966. While in my experimental phase I discovered that many Festools changed the way I worked, especially the track saws and portable dust extractors. I still had hundreds of non-Festool products. I still own many such tools. My business is making money using tools. I am not in the business of selling tools.

Perhaps your mileage will vary.

 

[SMLWinds]

Can you send me a link for the porter cable without the base (ie-motor only for table insertion). I do like that option given that this will be a dedicated table router. Thanks for the help!