Saddle square recommendations ?

[smorgasbord]

Maybe watch this video to see uses of a hinged saddle square:


[attachimg=1]

 

[squall_line]

I did not say they may not produce good stuff. Just that it is apparent sales/marketing decides not only what is made but also how it is made. That is the only way such an appearance-first, function-second production can happen. I had this feeling about them for a long time. The video just confirmed it.

They do and will keep making good kit. But one should never ever trust a business where manufacturing is decided on by marketing. If they make anything where accuracy matters, make sure to validate it is actually accurate and how much. Nothing more, nothing less.

I do trust TSO. They have an engineering-first culture and keep sticking to it. Over and over. I also trust the Festool engineering culture. WP? No.

If you watched any tour videos done by the owner of Woodpecker's, or videos discussing the machines where they're making their new router bits, you may change your opinion on that.  That said, I don't expect people to seek out nor take time to watch such videos, either, so it's perfectly understandable if you haven't seen them or won't watch them.

Their sales model and "one time tool" model may not be everyone's cup of tea, and there are certainly some odd items in their collection, but to call them a marketing company first and engineering company second is a pretty bold statement.

 

[mino]

If you watched any tour videos done by the owner of Woodpecker's, or videos discussing the machines where they're making their new router bits, you may change your opinion on that.  That said, I don't expect people to seek out nor take time to watch such videos, either, so it's perfectly understandable if you haven't seen them or won't watch them.

Their sales model and "one time tool" model may not be everyone's cup of tea, and there are certainly some odd items in their collection, but to call them a marketing company first and engineering company second is a pretty bold statement.

Well, lets say I am hard to impress by fancy manufacturing videos. I have learned the hard way that to understand orgs/teams/people one needs to focus on culture (of working/designing) and that is seen in such subtleties.

Milling a surface which does not need to be milled in a way the milled surface is less accurate than before is a culture, not machine/toolling/material issue. It speaks of a culture of arrogance. Typical of sales/marketing-driven thinking. That (unrelated) fresh thread about clamps .. matches that.

/end OT

 

[WillAdams]

I've often wanted the Bridge City saddle squares.... For non-square angles, I use the saddle square built into the Bridge City double-square or any of the multi-tools. A hair more awkward, but usually it is already in my hand.

That was my take on the other options as well, and glad to have it confirmed.

Which specific double square do you have which has this feature? It doesn't seem to be on current models:
https://bridgecitytools.com/products/ds-6v2-double-square

A notable difference between the BCTW originals and this latter version is the formation of the hinge --- it is quite a bit more complex on the previous model, and seems a much easier thing to make on the latter --- and being made of aluminum, makes me wonder about the prospects of just making one myself....

Or, maybe just buying a suitable Brusso hinge and using that.

 

[semenza]

The WP milling operation gets done on both sides / edges. Milling the first edge is making the two pieces co-planer and true, much like edge jointing. But not necessarily parallel to the other edge. Then the piece is presumably flipped in the same (maybe a different set up) and the other edge is run. Trueing and making that second edge co-planer and also
taking off the "high end" ensuring parallel.

Think straight line ripping one edge of a board to create the reference edge before the next operation quite likely ripping parallel pieces aka; the other edge. 

Seth

 

[WillAdams]

Yes, but how are they assuring that the first operation is done at 90 degrees to the hinge?

 

[Packard]

I strongly disagree. The guy in most of the videos, Jeff Farris is a not just a good participant here (and on the Inca mail list), he's a woodworker himself. Some of the WP videos are shot in his own home shop. And I've never heard anyone complain about Woodpecker's customer service. Maybe their tools aren't what some woodworkers want or need, but overall they're high quality and do what they claim.

I did not say they may not produce good stuff. Just that it is apparent sales/marketing decides not only what is made but also how it is made. That is the only way such an appearance-first, function-second production can happen. I had this feeling about them for a long time. The video just confirmed it.

They do and will keep making good kit. But one should never ever trust a business where manufacturing is decided on by marketing. If they make anything where accuracy matters, make sure to validate it is actually accurate and how much. Nothing more, nothing less.

I do trust TSO. They have an engineering-first culture and keep sticking to it. Over and over. I also trust the Festool engineering culture. WP? No.

I would add that their “one time” tools are “maybe” tools.  “Maybe this is a good idea; maybe not.”  “Maybe this is a useful product; maybe not.”

Manufacturers should have enough faith in their products to make a production run, put it in stock and list it in their catalog.  Woodpeckers turns that process on its head. 

They design a product, list it in their catalog and when they have sufficient orders they make a production run.  So, if there is not much interest in the product, you might have a long wait for the item is shipped.

 

[Packard]

Hans,
For what its worth, my personal view is that anything that can be adjusted will eventually lose that adjustment and need to be readjusted, but its hard to know when so one must double check it again and again.  I generally prefer fixed angle gauges.  The main ones I need are 90 degrees and the dovetail angles, which Lee Valley makes at a very reasonable price.

For variable angles, how would the product you are thinking about improve over the bevel gauge - which I thoroughly mistrust? [unsure]

I agree.  That is the reason dedicated picture framers’ miter saws with fixed 45 degree angle cuts consistently turn out better miters than adjustable miter saws, regardless of the quality of the saw. 

 

[Rutabagared]

Shinwah, the Japanese manufacturer of woodworking measuring tools makes their own version in aluminum (about $20.00) and in resin (about $10.00) and available from Rockler, Amazon and others. 

I have the resin square and it is very handy, accurate and easy to use.  I recommend it or its aluminum cousin.

Not flashy, but well-made and well-thought-out.  Their measuring tools have an excellent reputation.

I'll second this.  I have the aluminum version.

 

[mino]

The WP milling operation gets done on both sides / edges. Milling the first edge is making the two pieces co-planer and true, much like edge jointing. But not necessarily parallel to the other edge. Then the piece is presumably flipped in the same (maybe a different set up) and the other edge is run.
...

The issue is not the milled sides being co-planar.*) It is them being orthogonal to the hinge.

The way you achieve that is you first mill a reference surface. Then you turn it upside down and use that reference surface to make another parallel one AND to make the hole for the hinge. I.e. you have much more work that way with the piece as you need to do all this *after* it was painted but *before* it is assembled.

What they do here is create the FAKE appearance of "milled for accuracy". The milling operation is done solely to FAKE the look of a precision-milled part. They just rely on pre-milled accuracy for the precision side, betting it is accurate-enough even after the fake milling error is added.

I cannot even give them the benefit of being incompetent. This is too elaborate for that.* To devise such a manufacturing workflow one needs to be aware how the part should *look* to mislead the customer into thinking it was precision-made. And the sheer arrogance of putting this fakery online .. Just incredible.

EDIT:
* OK, maybe I am too harsh. Maybe they are indeed so incompetent and/or not caring to not realise one cannot use a vise like this, that "one-pass-milling" two moving components is a no-go or that there is no way to get the result properly orthogonal this way. But then I am not sure they would have any business selling high-end instruments. These are all garage-level milling mistakes one learns to avoid pretty early on. Like on the first 10 parts one mills. I learned it on the first three .. or three tries of the first part, to be precise. To get to a milled appearance, this is what I would do too. Just a bit too coincidental.

*) The surfaces are not even co-planar. You cannot use a simple vise like this to achieve co-planar surfaces. The whole surface needs to be laid on a calibrated reference surface. None of that is done here.

 

[Cheese]

A marketing business run by sales people through and through. Nothing bad about it. Just another company not to be trusted.

Think twice and measure thrice before and after buying from this company.

I think not...over the years I've had several conversations with the owner. Richard is all about engineering and precision machining first, the marketing part is a lot further down his list.

As far as machining accuracy goes, it's all in the jigs & fixtures they use for production. We have absolutely ZERO insight as to what their manufacturing set-ups are, yet are quick to declare that they're somehow flawed.  [tongue]

 

[mino]

I think not...over the years I've had several conversations with the owner. Richard is all about engineering and precision machining first, the marketing part is a lot further down his list.

As far as machining accuracy goes, it's all in the jigs & fixtures they use for production. We have absolutely ZERO insight as to what their manufacturing set-ups are, yet are quick to declare that they're somehow flawed.  [tongue]

Indeed cannot comment on their jigs and fixtures. Presumably they are good-enough such they can spend their error "budget" this way and still turns out OK.

Only thing I am saying, actually agreeing with @ smorgasbord, is that the shown "final milling" operation is superfluous, reduces accuracy of the end product and is - I do presume here - done for the appearance of it. As I indeed do not think they are incompetent, have to conclude it is done for the appearance factor.

Does not matter they do good stuff. If a maker goes to the effort of milling to fake an appearance of accuracy, that means I know one cannot trust anything they make just by design/appearance. There is no way to know what was done for appearance and what was done for actual accuracy. This is the problem of fudging. You fudge once and the trust is lost. No matter you did it right 100 times before and after.

I am in a different business, but this is par for the course. Nothing bad/evil etc. The first thing people learn in marketing is that appearance sells. Just look how many folks berate the Festool LR 32 plate because it is not milled ..

When I look at WP pieces next to, e.g. TSO or Festool, I can see WP cares a *lot* about appearance.

 

[Crazyraceguy]

I have been inside of their manufacturing facility and seen the inspection QC department, with my own eyes. They are very accuracy oriented. The precision they go to is well beyond what anyone needs in woodworking. Both Richard and Jeff are very approachable and willing to listen. How many other companies directly advertise asking about customer input about new router bits?

I'm not 100% in love with the "One Time" thing, but it actually turns out to be "infrequent limited runs". Many of the One Time tools have been made several times. I think that enough of those additional runs eventually gets them updated into regular production.
Taking the risk of making something new does at least get them into the hands of a few people. They do keep track of people asking about the retired ones. That's how they get second chances.
The concept really only bothers me because of the things I have missed out on. I'm not so flush that I can just buy everything, hoping for a need, but get annoyed with myself for not being able to get one later, when I do need it.

 

[PaulMarcel]

That was my take on the other options as well, and glad to have it confirmed.

Which specific double square do you have which has this feature? It doesn't seem to be on current models:
https://bridgecitytools.com/products/ds-6v2-double-square

A notable difference between the BCTW originals and this latter version is the formation of the hinge --- it is quite a bit more complex on the previous model, and seems a much easier thing to make on the latter --- and being made of aluminum, makes me wonder about the prospects of just making one myself....

Or, maybe just buying a suitable Brusso hinge and using that.

Sadly, the DS-6v2 doesn't have the saddle square portion. The DSS-6 (double saddle square 6") does and that's always on my bench. The MT-1 and MT-2, though, do have the saddle square along with 2 dovetail saddle squares and a bevel gauge. These are always in the drawer since I use bevel gauges a lot.

 

[Packard]

Maybe watch this video to see uses of a hinged saddle square:


[attachimg=1]

With the exception of the polygons and triangles, my fixed Shinwah saddle square will do all that the folding square can do and without the potential inaccuracies that the hinge brings to the table.  I would venture to guess about +/- 0.015” (+/- 1/64th).  Just an educated guess on the added tolerance, but it will be less accurate than a fixed square.

Plus there are simple workarounds for when an other than 90 degree angle is required. 

I am thinking back on all the times that a hinged square would be beneficial and I can turn up exactly none.  But I could revert to a height gage and a flat ground reference plate (my table saw’s plate is flat—as flat as a sheet of glass.  Or reference marks on the sides connected with 2” wide masking tape.  Or, use the off-cuts of the polygon to make a fixed saddle square.  I’m sure I can think of more options.

 

[squall_line]

Sadly, the DS-6v2 doesn't have the saddle square portion. The DSS-6 (double saddle square 6") does and that's always on my bench. The MT-1 and MT-2, though, do have the saddle square along with 2 dovetail saddle squares and a bevel gauge. These are always in the drawer since I use bevel gauges a lot.

I'm pretty sure I got an MT-2 after seeing you use it in a video, [member=3513]PaulMarcel[/member] .  I didn't immediately go out and get one, but I signed up for the BCTW newsletter and the next time they went on sale, I grabbed one.

 

[smorgasbord]

...
With the exception of the polygons and triangles, my fixed Shinwah saddle square will do all that the folding square can do and without the potential inaccuracies that the hinge brings to the table.  I would venture to guess about +/- 0.015” (+/- 1/64th).  Just an educated guess on the added tolerance, but it will be less accurate than a fixed square.

I bet the Woodpeckers hinged saddle square is better than that, even the large one.

How is the Shinwa made? Looks like it's a piece of extruded aluminum - the question is whether the 90º and 45º ends are cut/stamped or actually milled.

The Amazon page for the Shinwa claims these tolerances:

90° Angle Accuracy: ±0.008 / 3.9 inches (0.2 / 100 mm)
45° Angle accuracy: ±0.008 / 3.9 inches (0.2 / 100 mm)
Length tolerance: ±0.01 inch (0.2 mm)

So, about +/- 128". Certainly good enough for woodworking layout where the angle of the pencil can introduce more error than that - not to mention you still have to saw/chisel to that line.

While I was the one to bring up Woodpecker's milling operation not indexing off the hinge pin in the first place, I would expect their hinged saddle square to meet Shinwa's fixed specs. Note that it should be pretty easy to check:

1) The build video shows the saddle square checked open to flat with a reference straight edge.
2) Next would be to close the square all the way and check for any differences in where the two edges meet.

If it's both truly straight when open and both edges meet perfectly when closed, it's good.

 

[Packard]

I have the resin saddle square.  Injection molded pieces have part to part repeatability, though only as accurate as the machined mold. 

My test is to scribe a right angle line and the repeat from the other side of the stock.  I tested it when new, and I ended up with a single line.  But I don’t recall I’d I checked to see if the measured piece was exactly of a uniform width.

I’ll check again tomorrow.

 

[Mini Me]

An interesting conversation on a subject not often discussed. I have a personal hatred of Aluminium reference tools and you won't find them in a machinist tool box at all. If they have moving parts the material is too soft to hold the accuracy they hopefully were manufactured to and God help you if it is dropped and it is not a good idea to use a knife against an Aluminium edge for obvious reasons. That edge is easily eroded by constant use also affecting the original accuracy of manufacture. The video picture above showing using a hinged "saddle'' square on a hexagon is the wrong tool for the job IMHO, a marking gauge referencing off the same face is the correct way to do that job.

I have long held the opinion that WP spend a lot of time thinking of ways to produce tools which have a marginal use case and the presentation of the tools is their marketing goal above all else. I suspect their primary market is for new entrants to the craft more than those who had longer exposure it. Many years ago I bought a few OTT's, they hardly got used and my thinking on them was formed then. My B in L who is a toolmaker saw them and he pointed out the durability problem of Aluminium which I had to concede was a real issue so I only have steel reference tools now. 

 

[semenza]

A marketing business run by sales people through and through. Nothing bad about it. Just another company not to be trusted.

Think twice and measure thrice before and after buying from this company.

I think not...over the years I've had several conversations with the owner. Richard is all about engineering and precision machining first, the marketing part is a lot further down his list.

As far as machining accuracy goes, it's all in the jigs & fixtures they use for production. We have absolutely ZERO insight as to what their manufacturing set-ups are, yet are quick to declare that they're somehow flawed.  [tongue]

    Exactly.

  Seth