Safety, Festools In General, and Kapex In Particular

[Dan Clark]

Hi.  In this thread (http://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=55129) a fellow described how his friend's dad just lost his thumb and did other serious injury to his hand with a miter saw.    During the discussion that followed, another poster mentioned that he was going to install Laser on his SCMS for safety.  All of this brought a few thoughts to mind:

1) It's critical that we have a "smack in the chops" safety reminder once in a while.  Read the post!

2) We are fortunate that many Festool tools are a bit safer than other tools.  The disappearing blade and riving knife in the TS55 come to mind.

3) I never thought of a Laser on an SCMS as being a safety device, but it makes some sense.  Especially when you have an always on Laser like the Kapex, a Laser will indicate where the cut is going to be.  I think seeing that Laser beam cross your fingers would be enough to cause an instant "yank your stupid hands outta there!" reaction.  Thoughts about this?

Regards,

Dan.

 

[Lou Miller]

I don't think a laser increases safety on a mitersaw at all. You have the kerf plate to use as a reference for where the blade is going to come down at. That should be all anyone needs. No offesne to anyone, but if you need more than that, you really should put the tools away. 

The laser is helpful to some for alignment (I don't like them and won't use them), but that's about it.

Most of the accidents I've seen on jobsites over the years (only a few) were a result of the wood moving while the cut was being made and drawing the person's hand into the blade. Cutting crown molding without stops is the easiest way for this to happen.

 

[Tinker]

When using my TS and BS, I use one of those magnetic feather boards set at a point beyond which I will not put my fingers.  Most of the time, i use it as anti kickback.  But if I am cutting long stock where I feel certain there will be no kickback, that's when i set it as a warning device.  for any new tool, such as router, planer and any other dangerous tool, I "dummy" it thru for a while. Even if i have used a machine before, I do this with a new model or any replacement just to get used to the feel and limitations before i even make any cuts.  a good example of the results of not doing this is displayed on the 55" guide bar that came with my ATF 55.  I had plunge cut with the old Milwaukee for many years doing form and scaffold work.  The way the AFT plunges is completely different that the way you plunge with the old circular saws I was used to.  I tried doing it the same way because i did not take the time to make a few "dummy" cuts before hand for the sake of familiarization.  with that first plunge, i not only nicked a little piece of rubber, but left several scars across the top of the bar which are a constant reminder of past stupidity.  practice may not always make perfect, but it sure does eliminate a whole lot of idiocy.

When my son was learning to run heavy equipment, i would lay down rules he had to follow along with lines in the sand over which he was not allowed to even stir the dust.  He learned along with many tears when he had to get off of machines because he DID disturb forbidden territory.  he now owns equipment that could bury my old machines in two minutes.  He has made his own mistooks, and they have usually happened because he tried to take shortcuts from what he has learned as a kid.

Accidents happen, not because of the machinery, but unfamiliarity with that equipment and just plain carelessnes.
Tinker

 

[fcraven]

I don't think a laser increases safety on a mitersaw at all. You have the kerf plate to use as a reference for where the blade is going to come down at. That should be all anyone needs. No offense to anyone, but if you need more than that, you really should put the tools away. 

One would think that's all you should need; however, seeing a kerf on the plate and drawing the three dimensional path from the raised saw to the kerf is not always that simple, especially with angles.

The laser is helpful to some for alignment (I don't like them and won't use them), but that's about it.

Never say never, (I know you didn't say never). How many people won't use a guard on their table saw (I really wish Norm would, at least, use a riving knife), or won't use dust extraction, or other safety devices?

I've heard many contractors who simply won't use any dust extraction, i.e. they refuse to use dust extraction. A few days ago I watched as some flooring guys spewed oak dust everywhere as they were laying a new floor (a TS55 with a guide would have made their cuts A LOT straighter too, but that's another subject). And none of the guys had any hearing protection with their nail guns (I'm glad I did). Then just yesterday, I was in a cabinet door shop--there was dust everywhere. I made a comment about it and the guy at the desk said "It comes with the territory". This is the prevailling thought process: "We've done it this way, and were not going to change."

I think laser guides fall into the category of new safety feature. It may not be perfectly accurate, but if I saw a red line across my fingers, I think it would get my attention.

Most of the accidents I've seen on jobsites over the years (only a few) were a result of the wood moving while the cut was being made and drawing the person's hand into the blade. Cutting crown molding without stops is the easiest way for this to happen.

More than the wood moving, perhaps it could be said that most accidents come from not thinking...like not thinking to use stops when cutting crown molding, or (my favorite way to injure or kill yourself) working with power tools at the end of the day when your tired.
----

As I eagerly await a new Kapex I'm using a Delta Mitre Saw. Recently some of our workers put on a new blade but, they didn't know that you don't need to remove the protective cover. When they tried to reassemble it, they lost the crucial spring. Now, once the cover is retracted, it stays that way. I discovered this as I was cutting some trim, and did not have the time to perform surgery on saw, let alone go buy the now missing spring.

Needles to say I chose to be very deliberate, and to NOT hurry anything. But on every cut I thought of how much safer it would be if I had that laser line(s). Sure there's a kerf down at the bottom, but this one wasn't any help, especially at angles or compound angles. (I've got to get that saw fixed)

I'm not suggesting that a simple red line is as good as say a SawStop, but I think passive stupidity protectors are, in the words of a famous felon, "a good thing."

 

[Mark]

I had the excitement of using some old non-Festool equipment the other day. My Dad's old Craftsman radial arm saw that he bought way back in the early 60's. Dull blade with a particle board table deteriorated to the point of dry oatmeal it was just looking for some human flesh. I really appreciate how spoiled I've become using Festool. I'd had only one scary incident where the blade binded on the rail and the saw kicked back onto the rail cutting a nasty gash into the aluminum. Operator error as they politely call it rather than stupid human.

In all fairness it just goes to show how much tougher my old man is than me with my fancy Festools. Doesn't faze him one bit using the flesh eating tool!

 

[LaserGecko]

I have put off buying a tablesaw because I was waiting for the SawStop Contractors Saw. Since I wasn't doing any woodworking, it wasn't a big deal to wait. My driving force behind the decision was my four year old son. Hell, if I cut my own finger off, well that's my damned fault for not paying attention. My Dad has decades of woodworking experience. I've picked up some (but not nearly as much as I'd like) of that and I know that I wouldn't be able to live with myself if anything ever happened to my son's health, especially if it was due to my impatience.

It's really ironic that the saw companies said "Safety doesn't sell" and thought the public would balk at paying $100 more for a tablesaw. Funny, I don't know of anyone missing a finger from a TS accident who would not gladly pay a hundred bucks to have it back.

Now that I'm gettin' all Festooled up, I may never need a TS (but it'll be a SawStop if/when I do). I've seen some people doing some stupid things with SkilSaws over the years and knowing that the blade on a Festool saw doesn't have a guard because it retracts completely into the housing is music to my ears. It's going to be insanely expensive, but I'll get the Kapex if I need a SCMS.

I know too much about dust to NOT get one.

I've been a professional theater technician for the past 14 years, starting in Branson and moving on to Las Vegas for the past eight years. My employers have paid lots and lots of money to professionals to teach us how to do everything safely and legally. The theatrical rigging safety courses were taught by the guy who literally wrote the book on the subject (Jay Glerum). He also testifies as a professional witness in all kinds of liability cases that involve structural failures, rigging mishaps, or user "modifications" to life-safety gear.

"That's the way we've always done it" is music to a liability lawyer's ears. About the only thing that they like better is someone admitting on the stand that they defeated a safety feature or modified a blueprint and weren't qualified to do it or they "didn't think it was important". There's nothing that makes you look like a greedy a-hole to a jury more than showing by your actions that you value monetary gain over human life and safety.

FCraven,

Isn't it amazing how some of these contractors think that safety is too expensive? The tile guys at a friends house wore no hearing protection nor respirators. "Boss don't give 'em to us" was their response when he asked.

I was at Woodworkers Emporium awhile back when a guy and his wife were ordering a new UniSaw for their new business.  I pointed at the SawStop on the showroom floor and said "It's cheaper than a workman's comp claim."

"Naw, don't need it. We pay attention in our shop."

Wow, what incredible faith in his employees! Gee, I thought it was a "brand new business". Just imagine a lawyer explaining to a jury that "the owner thought the $300 difference was too much to pay for a chance to save my client's hand". If you're going to buy a UniSaw, at least buy it somewhere else so you can claim ignorance and not have to say "Yes, I walked right by it."

A good lawyer could argue the same for our beloved Festools. "Oh, you didn't think that the dust extraction was worth an additional $500 over buying the DeWalt sander, but my client has incurred tens of thousands of dollars in hospital bills because he can no longer breathe on his own...at least you saved some money."

Of course, I'm no expert, but I think some of the Festool features like the dust extraction and Plug-It! cords make these the safest handtools on the market.

 

[AMC]

If nothing else, the Festool safety/dust argument is the ace up the sleeve when it comes to persuading spouses that you *must* have those green and grey tools. And you sometimes need every argument in the book.

 

[LaserGecko]

If they don't realize what a difference dust collection makes, just watch the Coffee Table episode of Freeform Furniture!

I didn't know Festool routers could make that much of a mess! (For those who haven't seen it, she routs a 1/2" rabbet into about 12' of white oak with no dust extraction.)

 

[Ted Miller]

Laser, A Sawstop shipped is $4000.00. that saw is on the average of $2000.00 more than any other saw on the market, so price does mean that 85% of TS users will not purchase one. I know safety does not have a price, but for most it really does...

 

[LaserGecko]

The $100 to which I was referring was the cost stated by the inventor of adding it to existing saw en masse by the manufacturers. This was early in the battle, before he decided to start making his own saws.

The price difference for the SS is significant, but if you're in business it's freaking cheap compared to a workmen's comp claim.

 

[Lou Miller]

The $100 to which I was referring was the cost stated by the inventor of adding it to existing saw en masse by the manufacturers. This was early in the battle, before he decided to start making his own saws.

The price difference for the SS is significant, but if you're in business it's freaking cheap compared to a workmen's comp claim.

It is cheap compared to a comp claim. However, coming up with the $4K for the initial purchase isn't always easy. Especially for small businesses like mine. Just because we're in business doesn't mean we have money growing on trees. The Cabinet making business is extremely competitive and $4K is a lot of money when you're trying to get your quotes low enough to get the work.

Sometimes I think many hobbiests put too much emphasis on safety. Don't get me wrong, safety is an important issue and should never be overlooked. However, some people make it seem like we should all go to work wearing suits of body armor. There are lots and lots of cabinet shops that have been using Unisaws and so forth for decades without issue. Of course, an accident could still happen tomorrow, but you have to be somewhat realistic with this stuff. Not everyone can simply run out and buy a Sawstop. Besides, if money weren't an issue, I'd have an Altendorf or a Martin in my shop anyday over a Sawstop.

 

[Dave Ronyak]

Among things that surprised me this past Winter was Tom Silva's "This Old House" segment on table saw safety.  He demonstrated Saw Stop's new contractor's TS using a hot dog.  Impressive.  He also demonstrated use of a traditional push stick on a regular TS.  That lower priced SawStop TS was not available when I was shopping for a 10" TS for my hobbyist use last year in my garage/shop, and the price of a fully fitted SawStop cabinet saw was more than I was willing to invest.  Instead, I bought a General int'l 2 HP hybrid, some extension tables that can be easily re-positioned and also used as a router table, a hollow fence with sawdust collection, and a pair of Microjig's deluxe model "Grippers" to use in guiding the work piece through the saw.  The Grippers came with an excellent DVD video demonstrating setup and use on both the TS and router table, and Microjig's simple "splitter" kit.  (It is not a true riving knife and can only be used when the blade is 90 degrees to the table; is is intended to be used with the Gripper devices.)  Tom Silva did not mention the "Gripper" which I think is a definite safety enhancement device for the TS and also for use with a jointer or a router table.  Proper use of a pair of them will definitely keep your fingers away from the blade, and hold both the board you are cutting and the off cut piece firmly to the table.  I am also surprised that Norm Abrams does not show use of this device with his TS, or as others have pointed out, use of a guard on the TS whenever possible, given that he always begins every session of New Yankee Workshop with a brief commentary on proper safety equipment and procedures.  Similarly, most of the time, Norm does not show use of any dust collection with any of his [Porter Cable?] routers and sanders.

 

[Ted Miller]

The $100 to which I was referring was the cost stated by the inventor of adding it to existing saw en masse by the manufacturers. This was early in the battle, before he decided to start making his own saws.

The price difference for the SS is significant, but if you're in business it's freaking cheap compared to a workmen's comp claim.

Sorry, I guess I did not understand what I read, you are correct, $100 bucks ain't nothing compared to losing digits but we know that $100.00 would not even come close to the cost if his idea was added to every TS out there.

Like the saying goes the most dangerous tool in the shop is the user. I feel if you don't respect the tool enough to know what it can do and always pratice safe use it will come back to bite you...

 

[Per Swenson]

Of course shops have been running for year's with uni's

with nary a drop a blood.

I don't think that is really the issue anymore in any commercial operation.

It's not how we operated before it's how we must operate now in this overly

Litigious society.

Even harry the hobbyist better beware when Clem comes over to

use something in the shop.  Think a jury is gonna believe you spent

all that money on a home shop for a hobby?

Per

 

[Dan Lyke]

My Dad spent a good bit of his youth doing metal machining on his Dad's tools, and did a hell of a lot of woodworking and carpentry when I was growing up (We lived for a time in a 200 year old house with foot by a foot chestnut beams, and when we moved in, woodstoves for heat, in an area with a lot of weekenders from New York City, and unlike the weekenders, when we said "we're redoing the kitchen", we meant "we're redoing the kitchen", not "someone else is redoing the kitchen for us..."), and it was only late in his '50s when he lopped off the last three fingers of his left hand at the first knuckle on a table saw.

He had a lot of years with full use of that hand before the averages finally caught up with him, now he doesn't email much any more 'cause his typing's gone to hell... And he was kinda lucky, he can still grip things.

Yeah, a lot of people go through their whole lives without losing a finger. Me, even though I drive like a white-haired grandmother, I'm kinda happy to have air bags and crumple zones, just in case. I'd bet a whole lot of people who complain about the additional cost of a safer table saw think nothing of spending an additional $2-3k (or $20-30k) on a car they perceive as safer.

 

[Dan Clark]

Dan,

I'm very sorry to hear about your Dad.  I try to respect everyone's right to choice, but it is stories like these that test my willpower to keep my mouth shut.   

I don't own a tablesaw (yet).  If and when I do, it will be a SawStop or something similar.  When I was a kid, I took a class in wood shop at the local Boys Club.  I had a tiny accident where nipped off the tip of my little finger.  Just a nip.  A couple of bandaids and a few weeks, and I was fine.  But it scared the hell out of me.  Every time I look at a table saw, I remember that day. 

A moment's inattention will get you.  About two months ago or so, I was sanding down a stud with a belt sander with 36 grit sand paper.  I was pretty careful about it and always let the sander spin down.  However, this particular day, my wife was cooking Sunday dinner and yelled at me "five minute warning".  So I started rushing a little.    I leaned forward to exam the stud after taking my finger off the trigger but the belt was still spinning.  It snagged my left middle finger and sanded off the right side from the last knuckle to the end of the finger, from the top to the bottom.  I took off the outer 3/16" of skin and about 1/3 of my fingernail.  That doesn't seem bad, but it bled for two hours IN the emergency room.  When I asked the nurse if I would need stitches, she said  "No".  Then she hit me with the other half, "There's nothing left to stich up."  After about 6 weeks or so, it was mostly healed up.  Even now it still hurts occasionally and doesn't tolerate cold too well.

I think the safety can never be understated.  Since I'm a bit of a space cadet software developer, now I pay extra attention every time I pick up a tool.  And, I worry that someone else like my grandson may start playing with my tools and get injured.

For me, anything that gives me a bit of a safety edge is worth the money.  Just my opinion.

Regards,

Dan.

 

[Loren Hedahl]

When my brother and I were in early teens, dad's TS belt was too worn and loose to cut much, so we gave one end a twist and it tensioned up fine.  Then we put the blade on backwards and sawed from the motor end of the TS.  We built several kid's projects that summer set up that way.

The excitement happened when I forgot and attemped to rip a piece of plywood from the correct side!  Luckily nothing of any consequence was in the way of the projectile.  Wonder if he remembers it -- he just turned 60.

Anyway, I still feel much safer using a RAS than a TS, even for ripping.  Now that I own a Festool TS-55 and a selection of guides, table, vac, etc. I am finding that my RAS and CMS get used less and less.  I even used the TS-55 and guides recently to do the fine trimming required for insetting a couple of flush fitting pantry doors into their frames.  What would have taken maybe an hour or two fussing with hand planes and belt sander was done in 15 - 20 minutes, a better job, less fuss and no chips dust or shavings. 

 

[mysterium]

Loren Hedahl said "Anyway, I still feel much safer using a RAS than a TS, even for ripping. "

Loren a couple of decades ago at the lumber yard I used to own I was ripping a board with my 16" DeWalt RAS...  the board kicked back.....  no that's not nearly correct......  make that the board shot out of the saw in the from of a line drive at 3' off the ground...  across a parking lot and slammed.... I mean SLAMMED into a concrete block wall about 150' away.....    : I literally stood there with "skid marks in my shorts"!!!  Fortunately no one was in the way!!!

The Festool plunge saws do bring a lot too the "table"... but personally I'm glad at what they leave on the table.... and out of my "shorts"... 

jim

 

[Corwin]

Far too long ago, in 7th grade woodshop I was turning a bowl when I there was this loud thud.  Just missing another student (by inches) a board shot back from a TS and struck the bench across the room.  The next day the same kid on the TS cut off a finger.

I hear Festool is placing some tools in schools.  After seeing our local high school woodshop, I surely see the need!!!  I love the margin of safety that my Festool tools offer.

Corwin

 

[Dave Ronyak]

I think the previous writer just hit on an excellent combined PR and marketing campaign: put some Festool sets in some public schools, and train the shop teachers in their use.  I predict that once Festool's inherent safety, dust collection (also a health safety issue) and accuracy capabilities catch on with public high schools and trade schools, Festool USA will have created much future demand for their products (when these students and their parents and friends learn of what they can do with these tools).

I sold my RAS last year.  My wife recently asked if I missed it.  I said "NO, not at all."  This past weekend I removed some sagging particle board/melamine shelves to add a reinforcing strip using a Domino machine.  I had cut the ends of those shelves with my RAS using a decent quality carbide blade.  Those cuts are no match for what a TS 55 with guide rail can do, especially since I had to flip the shelves to complete the cuts due to the width of the shelves, which resulted in a little mismatch.

Dave R.