Sales Tax and Internet

[sw1211]

This subject has been beaten pretty close to death, saw this article regarding sales tax and internet sales, thought it might be of interest.

http://tech.yahoo.com/news/ap/20090112/ap_on_hi_te/tec_internet_sales_taxes

 

[nickao]

If they do that and start collecting taxes the economy will get worse NOT better.

All the little businessman that make their living on line using this tax savings as a basis for most of their sales to offset shipping charges will go out of business.

Why do states think everyone will stay in business and they will just get money from taxes? What will happen is there will only be an online presence of LARGE companies and the little guys will be run out.

Small business drives the US, always has and always will. This is not the time to reduce jobs and small business.

The states need to look at the big picture. They are opening a can of worms and the paper work added to every transaction and who gets what will be a nightmare.

Luckily a few of the biggest companies(Amazon, ebay) are against this an they have a lot of pull, I bet it will not happen.

If I am wrong I am in for a bunch of bullshit paperwork that just eats into my business time, meaning my hours for working will increase and my sales will decrease. Great time for this idea. I am DIRECTLY effected by this and I am hurting right now.

Maybe only companies with more than 20(or 100 or whatever) employees should be effected, therefore letting the small guy stay in business and compete and not lose their homes.

 

[Ken Slemmer]

Yes, it is just a matter of time. 

Purchased some Festool items from McFeely's (last month) and was charged sales tax. 
What really pissed me off, was on completing the order on-line state sales tax was NOT listed in the final purchase price.  But there was a note (along the lines) that sales tax is not computed in the sales price.  I forget exactly the wording. 

 

[nickao]

McFeelys only charges tax in like 8 states I think. At least that is what I was told a few months ago .

But that company is not one or two people or a husband and wife team barely making 50,000 a year either.

I am more concerned about the small seller than the buyer, not to sound like an ass, but this is not going to hurt each buyer spending an additional 10.00, it is going to hurt the seller because a buyer decides NOT to spend the additional 10.00.

On the other side of the coin no one is spending right now, it is all over the news, this is not going to help anyone buy more. Hurting mostly sellers directly and buyers indirectly.

Obvious I am biased internet sales are 100% of my business.   

All I need is two people a month deciding not to purchase from me becasue of a 30.00 tax and you know what I am out of business, that is how tight it is right now. Which means I have to move and I see no one purchasing my house anytime soon.

I think possibly millions more may be in my position, I am just hanging on. Want to buy an inlay?   

I think maybe I should not comment any further, it's to close to home.

 

[Notorious T.O.D.]

Nick,
Please don't take this as a personal attack in any way as it is not said in that spirit.  If you are truly in that situation where a relatively small sale or two a month will put you under in your business then perhaps your business needs to be rethought or restructured in some way.  That situation just does not seem like a viable business to me, it sounds more like a starving artist unfortunately.  I don't think there is a much harder way in our society to make a living than in arts and craft as most people don't seem to put much value on handcrafted items and would rather go buy something at Walmart that some Chinese child made and will be thrown away in a short time most likely.

As for internet taxes I think they will be implemented widely and sooner than we think.  Our governments have an unending appetite for money to invest into their social programs.  I see no sign of that changing with the Dems in charge and Obama talking trillion dollar deficits for the next few years.  I don't think things would be much different if the Republicans were in charge either.  Government, especially at the Federal level is just way out of control.  I fully expect to see us taxed on carbon use very soon as the local Duke Energy here in NC is now selling carbon offsets so people can give their money away to make themselves feel better about the environment. I also expect to see a worldwide tax put in place that will be administered by the UN to again take more away from the productive and give it to the unproductive.  It will likely be sold as some sort of environmental carbon offset tax too. 

So, hold on to your wallet as taxes are going to get higher and I think drive people to more of a black market or underground economy.  It always seems to go that way when the government gets too much into our pockets.  I often wonder what our founding fathers would think if they saw the level of taxes we pay today.  In many respects we are simply slaves to the government and the bankers....

Best,
Todd

 

[Ken Slemmer]

Nick and Todd, both of you make valid points in your post.  For the most part I have to agree with your points. 

I was not attempting to single out and paint McFeely's in a negative manner, I have bought other items from them in the past.  Only in that sales tax is being applied to Internet orders.     

 

[nickao]

Notorious I know that!

We here on the Festool forum can have 180 views and still be great friends.

Yes business plans do change and I am changing with the times, so I agree more than disagree for sure.

I have moved up to a higher end clientele and that seems to be working, 1/2 the work, same income and more fun projects. People with money always seem to have it so I regretfully am getting away from the middle income clients right now and moving up.

Still, what I do is for homes and there really is nothing else to do for me than doing  something not related to new  homes or remodeling.

What are carpenters to do, I am kind of in the same boat.

 

[Notorious T.O.D.]

Nick,

Have you ever given any thought to making custom entryways or doors for people who are building mid to higher end houses?  I did some of this back in the 90s and found that when people are spending big money for a house it is not that hard to sell them on the idea of a few thousand for an entry that will set their home apart from the rest of the houses in the hood with their refrigurator doors with sidelights.  Doors and entries are not that hard to make but do use a lot more wood than most woodworkers are used to using for a project.

I also know a guy in Pittsburgh that is an amazing craftsman and can make 18th century furniture that you can't tell from the originals.  He found that it was so hard to make any money making even the quality of furniture he is capable of that he ended up getting into the business of restoring and rebuilding period houses.  He makes a bunch more money and has all the work he wants and can make the furniture for himself.

Best,
Todd

 

[nickao]

I have done a couple entryways thats it.

I am not quite giving up yet. I have to much invested to give up completely at this stage. I figure if I can get through now then I always can, so in the next year I will see.

I just sold an inlay 20 minutes ago, so I am still making more than any union carpenter would. Its just when you get used to a certain amount over the years anything less is tough to get by with.

Most of my problems stem more with a loss of income that has nothing to do with the business and now I need make more than I did in the good times to be even, which is stressing me out.

 

[Dave Ronyak]

Nick,  I'm sorry to hear that you're struggling financially, and certainly understand how that can cause stress, especially with a family to care for.  I'm glad to hear that you are developing more clientelle who appreciate what you make and are able and willing to pay for it.  But almost everyone is being hit by the current recession.

Re the ideas for taxing more internet transactions, I think that is coming, it is just a matter of when.  It's the nature of the people who run our government at most levels.  They view the money as theirs, and may even think they have the public good in mind.  They'd socialize everything if they could.  Government is like that plant in the play "Little Shop of Horrors" who was always growing and crying out "feed me."  The only reason they might not include every transaction is that the cost to the government to police compliance would be higher than the revenue collected from the violator they catch.  Computerization of transactions makes them easier to audit.

I don't use the internet and catalogs to avoid sales/use taxes.  My wife and I use them to find and buy merchandise I cannot get at local stores. 

Dave R.

 

[nickao]

I use the internet for every purchase possible and I would buy all my groceries that way if I could. In Chicago you can but not here in the stix.

I do not shop online to save on taxes at all. I shop online for convenience, to save on gas and to give me more time to woodwork!.

But people that buy from me do take into account taxes and it will put a burden on small business, especially internet companies.

I can't wait to see how they determine who gets what from thees taxes. I make it in IL, ship it from Wisconsin and send it to CA. Plus I offer a service made to order NOT a product made and ready to be sold, services are not taxed here so more definitions will have to be decided by the government.

It is a nightmare and will just increase the size of the government tenfold. More red tape, higher prices, less people purchase, its a bad cycle.

The government wants more money to spend irresponsibly I will fight it as long as I can.

And I still say it is not coming, not any time soon.

 

[Dave Ronyak]

Nick, you summed up why I buy from catalogs better than I did.

RE government and taxes: Do any of you remember that only a few days ago, some people proposed that we tax cows because they give off ethane and methane?  This was proposed by the same people who have concluded that man-directed activities are the cause of global warming?  (It is a well established fact that cows and other ruminants emit methane and ethane, mostly from their stomachs and through their mouths.  It is not an established fact that these gases from these animals are responsible for global warming, which itself is also not an established fact.)  The amount of that proposed tax was many thousands of dollars per cow which would undoubtedly have driven up the cost of all dairy products and driven many farmers out of business. 

Dave R.

 

[nickao]

Hey they can tax my gas(stomach) they would make a fortune today!

Don't get me started on the global warming thing.

"How many of us heard about this? Was it reported by ANY of the major news outlets? Was it deemed unimportant? I WONDER WHY.... - U. S. Senate Report Over 400 Prominent Scientists Disputed Man-Made Global Warming Claims"

Antarctic ice GROWS to record levels, in 2007. Excerpt: While the news focus has been on the lowest ice extent since satellite monitoring began in 1979 for the Arctic, the Southern Hemisphere (Antarctica) has quietly set a new record for most ice extent since 1979. This can be seen on this graphic from this University of Illinois site The Cryosphere Today, which updated snow and ice extent for both hemispheres daily. The Southern Hemispheric areal coverage is the highest in the satellite record, just beating out 1995, 2001, 2005 and 2006. Since 1979, the trend has been up for the total Antarctic ice extent. < > This winter has been an especially harsh one in the Southern Hemisphere with....

http://d.scribd.com/docs/1bk1p3ea46jfqsgwggch.pdf

This document speaks for itself.

 

[Notorious T.O.D.]

Yes, I was thinking how Dave must be thinking of Global Warming as he deals with the foot of new snow...

Now, we have these same wack jobs trying to say that the cold and severe winter is being caused by, you guessed it, Global Warming...

Best,
Todd

 

[mwhafner]

Nick, it is amazing the power the press has to further their agenda.  "Global Warming" has always been a point-counterpoint issue, we just heard the side that CNN wanted us to hear.

Regarding the taxation of internet sales.  There are a lot of legal hurdles that have to be overcome before this becomes the law of the land, and thankfully the Supreme Court is still pro-business.  The Interstate Commerce Clause(s) of the Constitution is/are pretty cut and dry.  New York (no offense to any New Yorkers here) has long thought of itself as the exception to the rules.  They were the only colony not to vote for the Declaration of Independence (yes, you could argue that they were just the last to vote in the affirmative).  Ironically, they thought that independence might hurt business.

I would recommend that anyone whose business is directly related, or largely influenced by, internet sales follow any legislation closely.  Check with any business organizations you belong to.  They might have lobbyists working in your favor.  Many more businesses than you might think will be negatively affected by these changes.  There are thousands, if not millions of Ebay sellers who would be in the same boat.

 

[nickao]

Yes, I was thinking how Dave must be thinking of Global Warming as he deals with the foot of new snow...

Now, we have these same wack jobs trying to say that the cold and severe winter is being caused by, you guessed it, Global Warming...

Best,
Todd

That is actually funny!

 

[Dave Ronyak]

Yes, I was thinking how Dave must be thinking of Global Warming as he deals with the foot of new snow...

Now, we have these same wack jobs trying to say that the cold and severe winter is being caused by, you guessed it, Global Warming...

Best,
Todd

That is actually funny!

Yes, it is both funny and true. 

It seems impossible to change the view of anyone who has sided with those who believe th global warming story.  They dismiss any evidence contrary to the Al Gore/Michael Moore story, even when confronted with the fact that the data they used missed a critical year which destroys the pattern they assert as their "absolute" proof.  There is science and political science and politically influenced science.  Only the first named in this list is true science, the others are at best pseudo science.

Similar same polarization and compartmentation of people frequently occurs whenever there is discusion of economics and tax policy.  Most Americans are rather illiterate regarding both subjects and thus easily led in whatever direction the press and politicians want, seldom recognizing they are trading their personal freedom for control by government as each new tax and federal program is enacted.

Dave R.