Sales Tax

[Dan Clark]

Gentlemen,

I come to FOG to discuss tools and leave the rest of the BS world behind me.  I don't like like to see that BS invade FOG.

I think it is reasonable to have an intellectual discussion.  However, some topics - like politics, religion, race and abortion - are pretty hot.  They touch our sensitivities.  Realize that people you respect and appreciate in FOG may have strongly different opinions from yours in these areas.   

Please, tread lightly in these areas.  Focus on the value that your fellow FOG members bring here and leave the emotionally hot issues at the door.

Thanks,

Dan.

 

[nickao]

Dan this is actually a part of woodworking for the guys trying to make a little money from their skills, either as a hobby or retirement income, so I believe it is fair to talk about. Like Per has said many times skip these threads, but certain people may want or even  need to know our experiences.

Here is my story:

I was audited. They came to my office and pushed me aside and out of my own office! They stayed on my computer for 3 hours.

I made a mistake, 10.00 in my favor.

NOT ONE thing was said from the feds or the state about my out of state sales and me not charging or collecting taxes on them. Though Illinois has a use tax they certainly did not hold it against me and neither did the feds.

The internet is wide open, I know, I and was audited and  open and honest about not paying sales tax on out of state sales and neither the state of Illinois nor the feds told me I was wrong or pursued any money.

What does that tell you. It tells me I do not have to charge sales tax on out of state transactions as a seller. If it is the buyers responsibility so be it, but as a seller companies are allowed to do it.

I have been doing it and it is NOT illegal or I think I would know it about it after being audited by the State of IL and the Feds and them picking through all my transactions.

Do you really think that buyers small taxes owed for internet transactions will be collected. Not now, the small amount the gov would get back does not justify the expense of tracking it down. Now in 5 years when the net is even bigger it may change and be worth it. The Feds have extended laws making it simpler for online companies to get away with this. Someday they may impose an internet tax in lieu, but not now. The gov wants the net traffic to get even bigger before acting and are not going to do anything to slow down the internet sales at this point in time.

Can you see, especially in this economy, them going after people for 100.00 in sales tax that probably is offset from deductions anyway. I don't think so.

Nickao

 

[Michael Kellough]

Dan you are a mind reader!

How did you know I was just about to post a Bill O'Reilly video clip in the Off The Wall category?  

 

[Programmergeek]

I think this leads to a bigger problem for Festool.  Many people go to our local dealer take his time look at the stuff and then order over the internet because there is no tax.  The local dealer can not even discount it equivalent to the sails tax or through in anything free I have tried.  I feel bad for the festool dealers they should allow a discount equivalent to the sales tax to level the field.

I was in there one day when a local customer showed up with a broken part wanting warntee from a mail order Festool, this went over well....

 

[nickao]

Programmergeek, any company selling Festools need be on the internet themselves. If they are not they will not survive. So what they lose local they make up for on the net. I know a few Festool dealers and 80% or more of their Festool sales are online and they are retail stores. I know that most Festool sales are on the net by the same companies you may be visiting local, so I would not worry to much about Festool or their local dealers. They have to keep up with the times and the internet business is just about mandatory for any Festool seller.

Nickao

 

[Matthew Schenker]

Everyone,
It seems like everything is running smoothly in this topic once again!  I just wanted to jump in here to back up Dan's earlier statement.  Any topic can be discussed here in the forum.  But certain topics do have a higher likelihood of leading to unfortunate threads!

The key thing is this: as long as we're discussing the subject, and the facts, rather than the people who hold various beliefs, most of the time we'll be fine.  So by all means, discuss sales tax, as it certainly does impact people here.  But I'd advise keeping away from larger political beliefs based on statements about Festool's position on sales taxes.

By the way, this might be a good idea for me to link you to the basic forum rules and etiquette I created way back when the new FOG was just a few days old:
General Forum Rules and Etiquette

Maybe some things in there need updating?

Matthew

 

[joraft]

The key thing is this: as long as we're discussing the subject, and the facts, rather than the people who hold various beliefs, most of the time we'll be fine. 

But that's probably where most of the problems will lie. In most discussions it's hard to keep opinions and personal beliefs out, because it is those that motivate someone to post in the first place. Since our opinions are mostly based on our own personal experiences, it would be odd indeed if we all held the same ones. In a forum where some members have little or no self control in the way they express their opinions, things often are said that shouldn't be. But in forum where members are too careful about expressing their opinions, things are often NOT said that should be. Personally I'd rather take a chance on the first option.

I'm still trying to figure out the culture of this forum:

In a thread that is clearly entitled "Sales Tax" there are complaints about some expressions of politics, but the big complaint seems to be that it has too little to do with Festool products. Yet the title is easy to spot, so the thread is easy to avoid for those that don't want to waste time on it.

In a thread entitled "Perfect Limey food" there is not one mention of Festool, but no one complains about that. Only few members participated, so I must assume that most avoided it because of the title. As for me, I saw it as a great way to better understand some of the culture of those members that live in a different place.

A while back, a new member landed here who clearly had no good intentions toward this forum. But, for weeks he was given every benefit of the doubt by most members, who seemed to believe that he might change his ways at some point. He was welcomed to the forum, even though he never posted anything but insults, and showed no concern about the welfare of forum.

On the other hand, in a thread where some members expressed their reservations about the motives of the original poster (believing it may be only an attempt at marketing himself) far more members quickly and strongly attacked these members for it. And yet the original "complainers" clearly had ONLY the welfare of the forum in mind (I know I did).  Personally, I feel that expressing my own frank opinion in that thread cost me many potential friends here. I am now very careful about expressing an opinion on any subject.

If the culture of a forum becomes one of anger and complaints every time someone says something that others may not agree with, or approve of, it may remain very orderly and polite, but a lot of interesting and potentially useful points of view may never be heard. It's nice to have a forum full of knowedgeable and experienced members who know how to express themselves, and this one certainly has plenty of that. But, thicker skins and a little more tolerance could do a lot to add to the interest. Just go back and look at the threads that drew the most viewers.

John

 

[nickao]

You know the only thing I see wrong here is that this should be in the other OFF topic area. Meaning off topic to Festool.
We do not have to talk about only Festools here on this forum. I am becoming friends with a lot of people and we like to talk about other stuff.
So as long as it is in the off topic area I think we should be able to talk about anything we want.

I get aggravated more by people having a discussion having nothing to do with the thread topic right in the middle of the thread and then its hard for me to follow.
This thread is about taxes, fine. I have no problem with it at all. Under all tools and accessories is not the right place. Any other reason than correct topic placement
to not like a topic, is just not right. If someone is hot under the collar or disagrees to where they are mad, they just need not read the thread.

We should be able to shoot the proverbial shit if we want to as long as it is not in the incorrect area or  messing with someones thread topic.

I think even if it is a topic like politics or anything controversial what is the big deal as long as it is not in the middle of a tool thread or something.
All forums have off topic areas. Just do not read it or participate in the thread if you do not like it.

Now this post(my post) is off topic of sales tax, but it is on topic because I am discussing the right for the topic to be fair game.

So John I totally agree with you. Get a thicker skin. Disagree and hate me for my view on abortion, but be my best friend in the Festool threads, I see no problem with that at all.
You have to be able compartmentalize to really make it in a forum for a long period without getting offended at some point.

In summary IMHO, ANYTHING AT ALL should be able to be discussed in the off topic threads. What the heck is off topic for. For NON Festool ideas. That's the point of it.
So saying it does not have to do with tools enough is correct, but it is still allowed in the off topic Section. This is America I do not want someone telling me what I can and can not talk about in off topic thread.
If Matthew pulls the off topic area from the forum then the complainers would have a case. But that is not going to happen and should not happen.

Nick

 

[Matthew Schenker]

John,
I agree with what you wrote.  In fact, for me, it's nearly impossible to develop sturdy "rules" to govern how people behave, online or offline, without obvious contradictions or exceptions at some point(s) along the way.

That's why, if you look at the "General Forum Rules and Etiquette," you'll notice that all those statements are crafted to appeal to everyone's innate good sense.  Everything there should be obvious, but by stating it out loud, we all have something to agree with.  Really, when you think about it, no matter what the rules are in any community, it always comes down to everyone's good sense.

Back when this forum was just getting established, I actually had thoughts like, "OK, there are bound to be rough patches at some point in time, but if we can get a good community built up before any problems occur, things will take care of themselves."

That's my story!

Matthew

 

[danrush]

John, 

We disagreed in the thread you mentioned.  But you gained my admiration and friendship by sticking to your guns.  As I look back over the years, my favorite conversations have been with those I disagree with.  In my book, it's always OK to express a well reasoned (maybe even wrong) opinion.  Potential friends be damned.

Thanks for your input, Dan

 

[Norm St.Onge]

My business is based in southwestern Vermont, just over the border from MA & NY and about an hour from NH.

As I understand it, if I buy a tool in VT, I pay tax. If I drive to NH and buy a tool, NH has no sales tax so no tax is paid and I owe VT nothing. If I buy in MA or NY I pay their state sales tax and VT gets nothing. If I buy online from out of state - even if I buy from a dealer in NH - I'm supposed to pay VT tax on it. Right. Makes perfect sense.

-Norm

 

[Dan Clark]

John, 

We disagreed in the thread you mentioned.  But you gained my admiration and friendship by sticking to your guns.  As I look back over the years, my favorite conversations have been with those I disagree with.  In my book, it's always OK to express a well reasoned (maybe even wrong) opinion.  Potential friends be damned.

Thanks for your input, Dan

IMO, discussing different points of view without abusing others is where it's at.  I.e. hard on the issues; soft on the people.   

I'd like to say that I thought up that philosophy, but I didn't.  I learned it at Dale Carnegie training.  It's a key core value for them - recognizing the value in others even if you don't agree with them.  In fact, a key criteria to be accepted into instructor training is the capacity to recognize someone's hidden value.

A friend of mine is very religious and and has massively different opinions about certain issues.  We stay friends because we value each other and accept that the other person won't change.  We just have different viewpoints.

I agree with Dan - a well reasoned argument can stand on its own and help you admire the arguer...  Even if you don't agree with their position. 

IMO, this starts with respect for the other person and their right to have their own opinion, and then letting them know that you are listening to them.    After that it's just details - you change your opinion, he changes his, or you just shake hands and walk away friends.

Regards,

Dan.

 

[joraft]

We disagreed in the thread you mentioned.  But you gained my admiration and friendship by sticking to your guns. 

Thanks, Dan, I appreciate your saying that.

I know I'm not always as diplomatic as I could be. I tend to say what I think, but I still do my best to be respectful of others. And I'm atrracted to others who behave the same way, whether we agree or not. I have a very thick skin (sometimes thick head), and I enjoy discussions with people that force me to think and re-think about my various points of view.

John

 

[Programmergeek]

nickao, I totally disaggree with you.  The dealer I am thinking of is on line however that is not the point.  He is not selling to a percentage of the local population becaue they are mail ordering because it is cheaper.  To worsen things he is in one of the most populated areas of the US so his rents and such are higher than someone selling in the midwest.  In general if Festool wants to price control they should sell everything equal, right now the web has a reduced price which is not good for a busness model look at how many web stores have hurt retailers in the past.

 

[Dave Ronyak]

Sales tax is not a consideration for me.  Although I would rather not have to pay it, in Ohio, even if you obtain the merchandise through the internet (or telephone or mail) from a source outside of Ohio, you are liable to Ohio for the equivalent amount under its Use Tax rules.  That amount is to to paid when you file your Ohio Income Tax return for the year in which you made purchases outside of Ohio and have not paid no sales or use tax anywhere.

I buy some of my Festool products locally and others via the internet, mostly from "Uncle Bob."  Why?  If I find what I need/want at the local dealer, I buy it and take it home to begin using right then.  But most of the time when I go to a local dealer, they don't have in stock what I need.  And I am not going to place an order with them and have to later make another trip to their store (60 miles round trip for me to any of the three dealers nearest me) to pick up that order when it comes in.  Instead, I go online and look in my catalogue to prepare a list of what I want, or what I want to know more about, then I call a knowledgeable independent dealer who helps me make my final selections and fills my order.  This has worked well, even when trying to track down odds and ends and spare parts (e.g. special fasteners) for my Festool collection.

I agree with those who state that those who participate in FOG should [continue to] have a place to discuss off-topic subjects, and with those who pointed out that a discussion of sales taxes due on purchases of Festool products is, in fact, on topic.

And to Dan Clark regarding etiquette and Matthew regarding the rules of this forum,  I agree with both of you, especially in regard to having personal respect for others, even those with whom you strongly disagree.  To Matthew I would also point out that any set of rules is likely to need some tweaking from time to time, just as the spam filters of IT systems need to be updated from time to time.  Lastly, I think that expression of opinions should remain welcome.  Most of what is expressed by people contains a lot of opinion as contrasted with facts and narrative descriptions and flat out fiction.  FOG would be far less entertaining and enjoyable to me if those wonderful participants from "Down Under" and a certain celebrated (at least by me) story teller from NE USA stopped what they have been writing.  I say, let them continue, and let those who are not interested in what they or anyone else says, simply move on to other posts.

Dave R.

 

[joraft]

... even if you obtain the merchandise through the internet (or telephone or mail) from a source outside of Ohio, you are liable to Ohio for the equivalent amount under its Use Tax rules.  That amount is to be paid when you file your Ohio Income Tax return for the year in which you made purchases outside of Ohio and have not paid no sales or use tax anywhere.

Dave, I think this is true for all states that have a sales or use tax. The problem for the states is that it's been hard to enforce. The loss of revenue is becoming a big issue to most states, and I think we'll see a better system of inter-cooperation in the future. Unfortunately, that would almost have to involve giving a Social Security number when ordering out of state, which I don't think most consumers would go along with.

John